Extending the Northern Line to Clapham Junction

[danielcanning]

The usual reason that is given for not extending the Northern Line to Clapham Junction is that it would quickly become swamped with passengers changing from the Mainline station, but why the need to have an interchange at all? Why not build the station on Northcote Road, discouraging interchanging passengers but still giving that area of Battersea an Underground station?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there passive provision at Battersea Power Station for an extension?

Who is going to pay for the extension? There isn't likely to be developer funding available.

Does Clapham Junction need an underground station as well as the mainline railway?

 

[zwk500]

Is there passive provision at Battersea Power Station for an extension?

I believe so, yes.

Who is going to pay for the extension? There isn't likely to be developer funding available.

The multi-billion pound question.

Does Clapham Junction need an underground station as well as the mainline railway?

Depends if XR2 is going to happen or not. Without it, I'd say it does need a tube station, but with it I'd say not. Whether an extension of the Northern Line should be that tube connection is a different debate.

 

[cle]

I've always thought this was a no-brainer - obviously in conjunction with Camden Town having been done by then, and the higher TPH / full split operating on the Northern Line.

If the Battersea branch had, say, 32tph - I think it could easily handle the Clapham Junction volumes. And this is before the pandemic. It is somewhat duplicative up to Waterloo, but I don't think that is a problem. If you're on a Southern train, it might be more appealing than trying to Victoria line, or changing to a Waterloo train. Plus it would probably relieve Vauxhall a good bit too.

Much better for the many local users - who might stay off the trains to Waterloo and Victoria for a one-stop ride to the West End and beyond, inc Euston and Kings Cross St P. The more tubes that can extend south of the river, the better. An interim station in Battersea proper would be very well used too. And this could finally be a catalyst for a massive redevelopment inc platform straightening works and all the other things which need doing. And lots of housing, of course.

 

[HSTEd]

Once the Camden Town rebuild occurs, as others have mentioned, wouldn't there be more than enough capacity to soak up whatever interchanging passengers Clapham Junction could throw at it?

 

[Basil Jet]

The usual reason that is given for not extending the Northern Line to Clapham Junction is that it would quickly become swamped with passengers changing from the Mainline station,

Is that reason given? The Waterloo and City Line's little four-carriage trains seem to manage.

 

[deltic]

Once the Camden Town rebuild occurs, as others have mentioned, wouldn't there be more than enough capacity to soak up whatever interchanging passengers Clapham Junction could throw at it?

The issue was that the trains would fill up at Clapham Junction and no-one would be able to get on at Battersea Power Station - this would be resolved with Crossrail 2 and the extension could be made then,

 

[cle]

I don't think C2 is happening - nor do I think trains would be too full at Clapham Junction. Many would still stay on, or change to others (inc Overground) - you'd not see trains unload entirely.

And if there is a train ever two minutes (which it might be better than), you're unlikely to have 5 simultaneous train arrivals' worth of people (1 x fast and 1 slow Southern up, 1 x up fast and slow Wimbledon, 1 x Windsor) - heading down to the Northern per single tube frequency. I think it'd cope.

 

[SynthD]

How can you call it Clapham, or place it there, and discourage interchange?

It needs to be planned with the Clapham junction rebuild to avoid repeated work or closures. Oversite developments will need foundations.

 

[danielcanning]

How can you call it Clapham, or place it there, and discourage interchange?

It needs to be planned with the Clapham junction rebuild to avoid repeated work or closures. Oversite developments will need foundations.

As I said, place the station at the other end of St John’s Road, far enough away to discourage interchange, but still in the ‘town center’.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Coming up from the Sussex Coast I would stay on until Victoria for anything in central or west London but probably change onto the Northern Line if heading anywhere in East London.

 

[HSTEd]

If you were worried about noone else getting a seat wouldn't the obvious move be to simply only stat half the trains (which would be like 16tph after the split) at Clapham Junction?

Although to be honest I don't think it would really be possible to fill a leg of a split Northern Line from Clapham Junction, and if it is we could save a tonne of money and scrap one of the two attached Termini!

 

[fgwrich]

The issue was that the trains would fill up at Clapham Junction and no-one would be able to get on at Battersea Power Station - this would be resolved with Crossrail 2 and the extension could be made then,

It pretty much boils down to this. As the Battersea extension was largely developer / private sector funded - They want to ensure that Passengers boarding at Battersea will be able to get on and off there. By building it straight to Clapham Junction via Battersea, the worry is that the line would be swamped straight from Clapham Junction and therefore preventing anyone at Battersea or Nine Elms being able to board. The hope is that CR2 would relieve some of the pressure on the main lines at Clapham Junction (and Waterloo & Vic), and in turn removing some of the potential traffic of those who would head straight to the Northern Line if it went there - As it would also take a number of years to build, the Northern Line extension would have paid itself off by the time CR2 would open and would give TfL more freedom / flexibility to consider any future extension - or tag it on to any eventual rebuild of CLJ station.

 

[Thirteen]

It pretty much boils down to this. As the Battersea extension was largely developer / private sector funded - They want to ensure that Passengers boarding at Battersea will be able to get on and off there. By building it straight to Clapham Junction via Battersea, the worry is that the line would be swamped straight from Clapham Junction and therefore preventing anyone at Battersea or Nine Elms being able to board. The hope is that CR2 would relieve some of the pressure on the main lines at Clapham Junction (and Waterloo & Vic), and in turn removing some of the potential traffic of those who would head straight to the Northern Line if it went there - As it would also take a number of years to build, the Northern Line extension would have paid itself off by the time CR2 would open and would give TfL more freedom / flexibility to consider any future extension - or tag it on to any eventual rebuild of CLJ station.

I still wonder where you'd put an entrance for Clapham Junction NR station because there isn't really any obvious place for it.

 

[Basil Jet]

It pretty much boils down to this. As the Battersea extension was largely developer / private sector funded - They want to ensure that Passengers boarding at Battersea will be able to get on and off there. By building it straight to Clapham Junction via Battersea, the worry is that the line would be swamped straight from Clapham Junction and therefore preventing anyone at Battersea or Nine Elms being able to board. The hope is that CR2 would relieve some of the pressure on the main lines at Clapham Junction (and Waterloo & Vic), and in turn removing some of the potential traffic of those who would head straight to the Northern Line if it went there - As it would also take a number of years to build, the Northern Line extension would have paid itself off by the time CR2 would open and would give TfL more freedom / flexibility to consider any future extension - or tag it on to any eventual rebuild of CLJ station.

A Clapham Common resident told me that they can't get on northbound Northern Line trains, so they go one step southbound and get on there. A similar trick would be possible for people on the Battersea branch if it were extended.

 

[Minstral25]

Coming up from the Sussex Coast I would stay on until Victoria for anything in central or west London but probably change onto the Northern Line if heading anywhere in East London.

Surely swapping to Thameslink at East Croydon is much easier and faster, giving options at London Bridge and Farringdon for East London

 

[SE%Traveller]

Clapham Junction has excelent rail connections. there are plenty of other places that could benefit more from any proposed extension i'd have thought

 

[AM9]

I believe so, yes.

The multi-billion pound question.

Depends if XR2 is going to happen or not. Without it, I'd say it does need a tube station, but with it I'd say not. Whether an extension of the Northern Line should be that tube connection is a different debate.

There was much talk about it not connecting CJ as a condition by the developers. Was that just a condition during it's building when they were contributing to the cost, or was it in effect a covenant preventing TfL from extending the line for a defined time after completion or even in perpetuity?

 

[HSTEd]

There was much talk about it not connecting CJ as a condition by the developers. Was that just a condition during it's building when they were contributing to the cost, or was it in effect a covenant preventing TfL from extending the line for a defined time after completion or even in perpetuity?

One would hope noone would be stupid enough to agree to such a covenant, but given the calibre of politicians these days you never can be sure!

 

[SussexSeagull]

Surely swapping to Thameslink at East Croydon is much easier and faster, giving options at London Bridge and Farringdon for East London

Actually I try and change somewhere between Preston Park and Haywards Heath, although having all these options available at the weekend is quite rare at the moment.

 

[cle]

Clapham Junction has excelent rail connections. there are plenty of other places that could benefit more from any proposed extension i'd have thought

The issue with this is that a natural extension would probably go via Clapham Junction anyway. If it went beyond, you could expect a lot of churn at CJ so space/seats might open up. It could also be a three platform layover point to ensure terminating/starting trains - per North Greenwich.

If it went onwards, I'd think either hard west (Wandsworth direction with a Windsor line reliefintention) - or to Earlsfield (which was a CR2 issue) which could be the end (it's busy enough, and remove it from NR entirely) - or onwards to somewhere unserved like Roehampton (uni, deprived population and hospitals - def needed) and then Kingston. I could see demand to and from all intermediate points.

But a more pure southerly outing towards Tooting/Streatham would always be popular. If duplicative with NR.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Is that reason given? The Waterloo and City Line's little four-carriage trains seem to manage.

To be fair I often assume that it isn't working if I'm in a hurry, and I imagine many other people do the same.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I

The issue with this is that a natural extension would probably go via Clapham Junction anyway. If it went beyond, you could expect a lot of churn at CJ so space/seats might open up. It could also be a three platform layover point to ensure terminating/starting trains - per North Greenwich.

If it went onwards, I'd think either hard west (Wandsworth direction with a Windsor line reliefintention) - or to Earlsfield (which was a CR2 issue) which could be the end (it's busy enough, and remove it from NR entirely) - or onwards to somewhere unserved like Roehampton (uni, deprived population and hospitals - def needed) and then Kingston. I could see demand to and from all intermediate points.

But a more pure southerly outing towards Tooting/Streatham would always be popular. If duplicative with NR.

I agree. Roehampton via Wandsworth and Putney is the obvious destination.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Deleted. Wrong thread.

 

[Minstral25]

Actually I try and change somewhere between Preston Park and Haywards Heath, although having all these options available at the weekend is quite rare at the moment.

A good plan - however at East Croydon you get an extra 4tph for Thameslink which is why I suggested it. I hate changing there and along with the nightmare that is Gatwick when heading to Brighton I tend to avoid whenever possible.

 

[London Trains]

Had the Battersea extension never taken place, a much better extension would have been all the way along the A23 from Oval to East Croydon, with the line fully split to be Charing Cross <> East Croydon and Bank <> Morden.

Stops at (...Waterloo, Kennington, Oval), Vassall, Brixton, 2 stops on Brixton Hill (unsure what to name them), Streatham Hill, Streatham High Road, Streatham (NR station), Streatham Common (next to the park not the station), Norbury, Pollards Hill, Thornton Heath Pond, Croydon Hospital, Broad Green, West Croydon, Croydon Town Centre and East Croydon.

 

[JonathanH]

Stops at (...Waterloo, Kennington, Oval), Vassall, Brixton, 2 stops on Brixton Hill (unsure what to name them), Streatham Hill, Streatham High Road, Streatham (NR station), Streatham Common (next to the park not the station), Norbury, Pollards Hill, Thornton Heath Pond, Croydon Hospital, Broad Green, West Croydon, Croydon Town Centre and East Croydon.

Not exactly direct to serve Streatham Common, Norbury, Pollards Hill and Thornton Heath Pond. I think your stations are a bit too close together to be affordable if underground and it arguably just follows the existing rail routes.

I recognise there are multiple bus routes between Croydon and Streatham / Brixton / Clapham so the idea isn't invalid but some sort of tram on the A23 might be a better way of connecting those places rather than building a long underground railway.

 

[London Trains]

Not exactly direct to serve Streatham Common, Norbury, Pollards Hill and Thornton Heath Pond. I think your stations are a bit too close together to be affordable if underground and it arguably just follows the existing rail routes.

I recognise there are multiple bus routes between Croydon and Streatham / Brixton / Clapham so the idea isn't invalid but some sort of tram on the A23 might be a better way of connecting those places rather than building a long underground railway.

It would run direct following the A23. Streatham Common station wouldn't be where the current station is, it would be next to the park and the A23. Pollards Hill station wouldn't serve the centre of the area, it would serve the edge of it from the A23.

A tram isn't a bad idea but the problem with the A23 is it that it is too narrow for a tram line to be segregated (apart from Streatham High Road) so trams would be stuck in bad traffic just like the buses are now.

 

[MontyP]

How can you call it Clapham, or place it there, and discourage interchange?

It needs to be planned with the Clapham junction rebuild to avoid repeated work or closures. Oversite developments will need foundations.

Is there a Clapham Junction rebuild on the horizon?

 

[zwk500]

Is there a Clapham Junction rebuild on the horizon?

It's always been on the horizon, but at the moment it's receeding rather quickly