Will there ever be a conversion of 3rd rail to OLE

[RobShipway]

The panacea is batteries, doesn't matter how the power was originally delivered as long as there was some section that did it. Putting aside the issue of actually finding any capital to expend, I wonder what if any payoff point there is converting to OHLE. We know there's less power loss, but how are relative maintenance costs?

Well, for one OHLE is safer and I would imagine less costly, as there is more of the country under OHLE then there is the pockets of third rail usage. Yes, I know that 3rd rail covers a fair bit of the South east/west as far as Weymouth. However, there is lines such as the Uckfield Line, the route between Ore and Ashford International, Basingstoke to both Salisbury and to Reading that are not electrified either by 3rd rail or OHLE.

There has long been plans to electrify the Reading to Basingstoke route and on to Southampton with OHLE for freight usage, as it would make it better for the environment. But, I cannot see that happening to be honest within the next 20 - 30 years. This point has been discussed in many threads through the years both here the Speculation area and within the UK Railway Discussion area.

But if you where going to make Basingstoke to Southampton OHLE, then at some point I would expect other routes such as to Bournemouth, Weymouth, Portsmouth, Brighton and Eastbourne to follow. But there is issues with Infrastructures on these routes that would make OHLE difficult.

Many of the new trains in the last 20 years such as the Desiro's with SWR and the Electrostars with Southern and South eastern where built such that adaption to use OHLE would be quite easy, as it would for the most part be a case of adding a pantograph to the units, as many have a recess in the roof so that a pantograph can be located within it. However, train such as the class 701 units, do not seem to have the same recess area on their roof?

 

[Rob F]

When Bournemouth to Weymouth was electrified I wonder if OHLE was considered along with making the 442s dual voltage. How would the costs have compared?

 

[D365]

When Bournemouth to Weymouth was electrified I wonder if OHLE was considered along with making the 442s dual voltage. How would the costs have compared?

Conversion of third rail units to OHLE is a non-starter, unless they have been specifically designed with it in mind.

 

[Rob F]

The 442s were built at the same time as electrification was extended to Weymouth so could have been designed to be dual voltage from the outset.

 

[Fastlane256]

I beleve the new 701 can do both but SWR had the pantograph removed. I know that when they were tested at the derby test track they were drawing power overhead.

 

[D365]

The 442s were built at the same time as electrification was extended to Weymouth so could have been designed to be dual voltage from the outset.

Could have, but that's a discussion for a separate thread.

 

[dastocks]

The 442s were built at the same time as electrification was extended to Weymouth so could have been designed to be dual voltage from the outset.

The design and financial case for the class 442 was predicated on recycling traction equipment from the rolling stock they replaced. Adding in a dual-voltage capability was extremely unlikely.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The panacea is batteries, doesn't matter how the power was originally delivered as long as there was some section that did it. Putting aside the issue of actually finding any capital to expend, I wonder what if any payoff point there is converting to OHLE. We know there's less power loss, but how are relative maintenance costs?

OLE needs a lot more maintenance than the third rail however there is also a lot more trackside distribution substation kit required for third rail but that doesn't need a possession or specialist rrvs so doesn't cost as much. DC losses are higher but the introduction of regeneration has helped mitigate some of them. Also you have to factor in that you carried around 2-3Tonnes of transformer and pantograph kit on AC trains so there was extra energy required to accelerate that mass although in the grander scheme it still means 25kV is more efficient.

 

[D365]

OLE needs a lot more maintenance than the third rail however there is also a lot more trackside distribution substation kit required for third rail but that doesn't need a possession or specialist rrvs so doesn't cost as much. DC losses are higher but the introduction of regeneration has helped mitigate some of them. Also you have to factor in that you carried around 2-3Tonnes of transformer and pantograph kit on AC trains so there was extra energy required to accelerate that mass although in the grander scheme it still means 25kV is more efficient.

A good summary that also explains why low voltage DC electrification is preferred on metro systems.

 

[zwk500]

A good summary that also explains why low voltage DC electrification is preferred on metro systems.

Indeed - although the point about the 2-3 tonnes of transformers on the Southern is offset by the fact that modern EMUs carry an equivalent weight of concrete block around because of the effect on the suspension of such a weight difference.

 

[MattRat]

Well, the chances of this happening are still higher than electrification for most of the rest of the country....

 

[zwk500]

Well, the chances of this happening are still higher than electrification for most of the rest of the country....

They're really not. Electrification of unwired lines will be higher up the list than conversion of existing electrified lines, certainly while the 'levelling up' image is wanted, but even after that as it'll give a better return on the investment.

The only 3rd rail line I can reasonably see being converted in my lifetime is Basingstoke to Weymouth.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed - although the point about the 2-3 tonnes of transformers on the Southern is offset by the fact that modern EMUs carry an equivalent weight of concrete block around because of the effect on the suspension of such a weight difference.

Fair point although i guess that is because they are setup for worst case for vehicle approval so when its DC only teh equivalent weight is substituted.

 

[zwk500]

Fair point although i guess that is because they are setup for worst case for vehicle approval so when its DC only teh equivalent weight is substituted.

Basically yes. It means that they can design a dual voltage AC/DC unit, get it approved, and then just leave out the gear that isn't required when building it. DC gear is obviously a lot simpler so leaving that off doesn't change the weight of the coach as much as a transformer and a pantograph.

 

[AM9]

OLE needs a lot more maintenance than the third rail however there is also a lot more trackside distribution substation kit required for third rail but that doesn't need a possession or specialist rrvs so doesn't cost as much. DC losses are higher but the introduction of regeneration has helped mitigate some of them. Also you have to factor in that you carried around 2-3Tonnes of transformer and pantograph kit on AC trains so there was extra energy required to accelerate that mass although in the grander scheme it still means 25kV is more efficient.

I would suspect that the level of maintenance is similar because the distribution sytem is more intensive as:

the traffic increases (increasing train frequencies require distribution upgrades)​

train weights increase (heavy freight is virtually a non-starter on 3rd rail) - pun not intended​

speeds increase (the modern railway regards 100mph as a medium speed for anything over 25 miles per stop)​

Modern transformers are much lighter than the 'iron heavy' types of BR days and any hope of 125mph other than on OLEroutes is in vain.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I would suspect that the level of maintenance is similar because the distribution sytem is more intensive as:

the traffic increases (increasing train frequencies require distribution upgrades)​

train weights increase (heavy freight is virtually a non-starter on 3rd rail) - pun not intended​

speeds increase (the modern railway regards 100mph as a medium speed for anything over 25 miles per stop)​

Modern transformers are much lighter than the 'iron heavy' types of BR days and any hope of 125mph other than on OLEroutes is in vain.

modern distribution equipment isn't maintenance intensive compared to that required to keep the OLE in good fettle.

Anyhow its totally accepted that low voltage DC collector shoe systems are never going to deliver high speed although higher voltage DC overhead line systems could but they suffer from needs lots of copper up the air needing heavy duty structures to support.

Even in France there has been very little conversion of their 1500V DC overhead system to 25kv because its just doesn't make economic sense to rip out a working electrification system and replace it with another.

 

[zwk500]

Even in France there has been very little conversion of their 1500V DC overhead system to 25kv because its just doesn't make economic sense to rip out a working electrification system and replace it with another.

Indeed in France they are talking about upgrading the 1,500V system to 9,000v DC to get the savings of fewer substations, current, cable thickness, but without the hassle of having to change the DC to AC. However trying to change one form of OLE to another comes with it's own challenges that a 3rd rail to OLE conversion would have less issues with (e.g. maintaining dual-voltage tracks).

 

[Bald Rick]

I very rarely see news about the third rail being "down" for whatever weather reason. Far more reliable than OLE.

There‘s two simple reason for that.

1) the headlines of OLE problems are almost always on the busiest long distance lines - WCML, ECML, and GWML. You won’t see headlines of ‘overhead wires down at Tilbury’, or Erdington, or Littleport, or somewhere not affecting trains which journalists think are important.

2) the wires coming down is fairly visible, especially when theres a pantograph bent in half. A displaced conductor rail, or burnt connector, or pile of shoes is not so obvious or ‘photogenic’


I have lost count of how many problems there have been with the third rail these last few weeks. A major issue at Waterloo east which completely screwed Southeastern for the whole day was one. This weekend Selhurst depot has been closed due to a problem with the conductor rail system on Friday night / Sat morning, which caused countless cancellations and short forms all day yesterday. This is not unusual levels of disruption due to the third rail. Also, As I’ve said before, about a third of signalling and track circuit failures in third rail territory are actually caused by the third rail system (but reported as signalling issues).

 

[JKF]

Well, they're clearly wrong otherwise it would have been removed years ago.
Is the privatised railway doing its job and visiting schools to warn people of the dangers ?

BR certainly did in my younger days.

Never known of them come to the (Primary) school I work at, but remember more than one visit to my junior/secondary school back in the 80s, the videos about Lemonhead and the keen footballer losing a foot (“he still kept his boots”).

A girl from my secondary school (several years younger) did get killed on the third rail while on holiday somewhere in the South East. We wouldn’t have been warned about electrification hazards as there was none locally (Bristol).

 

[yorksrob]

Never known of them come to the (Primary) school I work at, but remember more than one visit to my junior/secondary school back in the 80s, the videos about Lemonhead and the keen footballer losing a foot (“he still kept his boots”).

A girl from my secondary school (several years younger) did get killed on the third rail while on holiday somewhere in the South East. We wouldn’t have been warned about electrification hazards as there was none locally (Bristol).

Yes, the one about the footballer definitely rings a bell.

I'm surprised you weren't warned about the third rail. We were definitely warned about OLE, even though we were in the depths of Kent. Also, Bristol had/has direct trains to third rail territory.

 

[tbtc]

Wasn’t the “logic” behind the Electric Spine idea that Third Rail equipment would become life expired, at which point it would be better to replace it with proper electrification?

i.e. don’t rip up the stuff that’s still “functioning”, but have a plan for a rolling programme of upgrades as various equipment would need replacing anyway?

With modern stock, pretty much any Southern Region EMUs are capable of running off the overhead anyway, so it shouldn’t be as big a deal as trying to do it a sooner

Is the privatised railway doing its job and visiting schools to warn people of the dangers ?

BR certainly did in my younger days.

What privatised Railway?

The government are in control, e.g. Northern has been run by the OLR for almost three years now

Still blaming the private sector though…

 

[stuu]

I remember watching a video at secondary school that talked at length about the dangers of electrification, even though this was in Somerset. People do travel about after all

 

[A0]

The design and financial case for the class 442 was predicated on recycling traction equipment from the rolling stock they replaced. Adding in a dual-voltage capability was extremely unlikely.

Slightly OT, but the traction equipment wouldn't have cared whether it was being fed from OHLE or con-rail - there's some form of transformer or rectifier in the mix which would address that issue.

Don't forget the original dual voltage units - the 313s and then the 319s both had DC traction equipment and rectifiers to convert the AC voltage to the DC voltage for the motors etc.

So the 442s could have been built as dual voltage and I don't think there's a technical reason they couldn't have been built as dual voltage.

 

[MattRat]

What privatised Railway?

The government are in control, e.g. Northern has been run by the OLR for almost three years now

Still blaming the private sector though…

The greatest deception of all time. The person who made the current system is an evil genius, and someone I'd cautiously want to meet.

 

[SHD]

Even in France there has been very little conversion of their 1500V DC overhead system to 25kv because its just doesn't make economic sense to rip out a working electrification system and replace it with another.

However, the once-extensive Parisian suburban network electrified with third rail (from Saint Lazare and Invalides) was completely re-electrified between the 1960s and the 1990s, most of it with 25 kV OHLE, but also with 1.5 kV DC. Two lines were transferred to RATP - the Saint Germain line (now a branch of RER A) in the late 60s and the Puteaux line (now a tram) in the 1990s.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I sill think the most likely is Southampton -Reading - even if not in my lifetime.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn’t the “logic” behind the Electric Spine idea that Third Rail equipment would become life expired, at which point it would be better to replace it with proper electrification?

That logic was somewhat flawed IMHO, even when the Electric Spine was being announced, because brand new DC traction substations were being built all the way down the route between Basingstoke and Southampton at the same time, as could easily be seen from passing trains. There was an upgrade to Northam Jn DC substation only a few years ago.

The notional date when the route power supplies become unsupportable presumably keeps receding into the distant future.

 

[zwk500]

That logic was somewhat flawed IMHO, even when the Electric Spine was being announced, because brand new DC traction substations were being built all the way down the route between Basingstoke and Southampton at the same time, as could easily be seen from passing trains. There was an upgrade to Northam Jn DC substation only a few years ago.

The notional date when the route power supplies become unsupportable presumably keeps receding into the distant future.

One of the issues is that you would want to convert Weymouth to Basingstoke in one go. However the electrification along that stretch has been renewed at different times so whenever you do it you're going to have some equipment that has life left.

 

[RichJF]

The one project that leads me to belive OHLE on most of the Southern Region is a long way off is the Uckfield line. Network Rail/Southern came out last year saying 3rd rail extension was the most preferable & cost effective option.

If OHLE was being considered then I imagine they would postpone Uckfield electrification until the rest of the Oxted lines were converted, which is going to be a long, long time in the future (Oxted tunnel restrictions, other mainlines get priority). The Brighton Mainline will probably go over to OHLE first as it's used by Thameslink.

While it would be beneficial to convert the Southern region, near 100 years of practice with 3rd rail & the sheer size of the network mean it's not cost effective.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The one project that leads me to belive OHLE on most of the Southern Region is a long way off is the Uckfield line. Network Rail/Southern came out last year saying 3rd rail extension was the most preferable & cost effective option.

If OHLE was being considered then I imagine they would postpone Uckfield electrification until the rest of the Oxted lines were converted, which is going to be a long, long time in the future (Oxted tunnel restrictions, other mainlines get priority). The Brighton Mainline will probably go over to OHLE first as it's used by Thameslink.

While it would be beneficial to convert the Southern region, near 100 years of practice with 3rd rail & the sheer size of the network mean it's not cost effective.

The irony of course is the Southern did have OLE 110 years ago