Will there ever be a conversion of 3rd rail to OLE

[Fastlane256]

Hello,

I am a commuter on SWR. I was wondering if there is any plans to change the network to OLE as it is way more efficient and safer. I assume it would be low priority as they would want to electrify the entire uk network beforehand?

Also, does anyone know the max speed capable on 3rd rail? I would assume 100mph as that is what is on the South western mainline.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

And if anyone knows any rumoured dates for the 701, that would be amazing. They do seem to be very delayed.

 

[Lucy1501]

Overhead lines are not coming to the former southern region anytime soon. It would require massive expenses in changing in rolling stock, raising bridges, modifying tunnels, installing new infastructure, etc. How exactly are you going to convince the general public to spend money electrifying an already electrified line? The benefits are, frankly, practically non existent for the sheer amount of money that would go into it.

Generally the maximum speed is around 100mph on 3rd rail, it causes issues between the train's shoe and the third rail.

 

[Snow1964]

100mph is the maximum (but this limit was set in mid 1980s and technology of mounting shoes beams has moved on a bit), but the main limit is the sloping ramps at end of each rail section, go to fast and shoe will bounce and spark


Some lines were changed from third rail to overhead, not on SWR, but examples include North London Line

 

[swt_passenger]

Hello,

I am a commuter on SWR. I was wondering if there is any plans to change the network to OLE as it is way more efficient and safer. I assume it would be low priority as they would want to electrify the entire uk network beforehand?

Also, does anyone know the max speed capable on 3rd rail? I would assume 100mph as that is what is on the South western mainline.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

And if anyone knows any rumoured dates for the 701, that would be amazing. They do seem to be very delayed.

Welcome.
I think it’s probably best to stick with one subject at a time.
The first 701 introduction is anyone’s guess really, but theres a vast amount of discussion in a dedicated discussion here in the rolling stock sub-forum: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-701-aventra-trains-for-south-western-railway.148717/

 

[Fastlane256]

Welcome.
I think it’s probably best to stick with one subject at a time.
The first 701 introduction is anyone’s guess really, but theres a vast amount of discussion in a dedicated discussion here in the rolling stock sub-forum: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-701-aventra-trains-for-south-western-railway.148717/

My apologies. I should have thought about that before mentioning it.

 

[PGAT]

It’s nothing to do with the technology limitations. 3rd rail is restricted to 750V for safety reasons so trains struggle getting past 100mph (and I don’t think there’s anywhere in 3rd rail land that allows 100+ anyway)

Fun fact: The record speed for 3rd rail is 109mph

 

[Fastlane256]

Overhead lines are not coming to the former southern region anytime soon. It would require massive expenses in changing in rolling stock, raising bridges, modifying tunnels, installing new infastructure, etc. How exactly are you going to convince the general public to spend money electrifying an already electrified line? The benefits are, frankly, practically non existent for the sheer amount of money that would go into it.

Generally the maximum speed is around 100mph on 3rd rail, it causes issues between the train's shoe and the third rail.

I was thinking their may be a conversion to ole if the Heathrow Southern Railway goes ahead but that seems unlikely as they have gone ever so silent.

 

[yorksrob]

"Way more efficient and safer"

The first one comes up against reliability, and I'm not convinced about the second.

 

[Fastlane256]

"Way more efficient and safer"

The first one comes up against reliability, and I'm not convinced about the second.

I was thinking it was more efficient as less energy is dissipated to surroundings.

 

[yorksrob]

I was thinking it was more efficient as less energy is dissipated to surroundings.

It undoubtedly is, but is it worth changing it, given OLE seems to be less robust.

 

[Fastlane256]

It undoubtedly is, but is it worth changing it, given OLE seems to be less robust.

That is true. The number of tabloid headlines about the OLE coming down partially on the East coast mainline is immense.

 

[zwk500]

"Way more efficient and safer"

The first one comes up against reliability, and I'm not convinced about the second.

OLE is more reliable against 3rd rail with ground-based hazards like flooding and Ice. We've had the safety discussion

It’s nothing to do with the technology limitations. 3rd rail is restricted to 750V for safety reasons so trains struggle getting past 100mph (and I don’t think there’s anywhere in 3rd rail land that allows 100+ anyway)

AFAIK there's not 100mph is authorised on the SWML and between Tonbridge and Ashford, IIRC. I'm not sure if parts of the Brighton line are still 100mph but I think people have told me they aren't anymore.

I was thinking their may be a conversion to ole if the Heathrow Southern Railway goes ahead but that seems unlikely as they have gone ever so silent.

A strategy paper comes out every now and again but the costs of replacement (especially the disruption) make it impractical to carry out. Heathrow Southern access would be dual-voltage, switching to third rail at Staines (or nearby).
The primary target of any conversion would be the SWML, as that's the main stretch of 100mph, and it also facilitates freight to Southampton and eventual extension of the OLE to Salisbury and Exeter. It also gains the most from the power distribution over longer distances down to Weymouth.

 

[D365]

It’s nothing to do with the technology limitations. 3rd rail is restricted to 750V for safety reasons so trains struggle getting past 100mph (and I don’t think there’s anywhere in 3rd rail land that allows 100+ anyway)

Fun fact: The record speed for 3rd rail is 109mph

Mechanical limitations, as per @Snow1964 comment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

"Way more efficient and safer"

The first one comes up against reliability, and I'm not convinced about the second.

I don't see how removing a high voltage top contact rail is anything but an upgrade of safety.

 

[yorksrob]

That is true. The number of tabloid headlines about the OLE coming down partially on the East coast mainline is immense.

OLE is more reliable against 3rd rail with ground-based hazards like flooding and Ice. We've had the safety discussion

AFAIK there's not 100mph is authorised on the SWML and between Tonbridge and Ashford, IIRC. I'm not sure if parts of the Brighton line are still 100mph but I think people have told me they aren't anymore.

A strategy paper comes out every now and again but the costs of replacement (especially the disruption) make it impractical to carry out. Heathrow Southern access would be dual-voltage, switching to third rail at Staines (or nearby).
The primary target of any conversion would be the SWML, as that's the main stretch of 100mph, and it also facilitates freight to Southampton and eventual extension of the OLE to Salisbury and Exeter. It also gains the most from the power distribution over longer distances down to Weymouth.

I very rarely see news about the third rail being "down" for whatever weather reason. Far more reliable than OLE.

 

[zwk500]

That is true. The number of tabloid headlines about the OLE coming down partially on the East coast mainline is immense.

Every winter you get tabloid headlines about the Southern region being badly hit by iced conductor rails, while the OLE goes fine. The ECML (and Paddington-Heathrow) OLE was pushed to the limit of the budget to get the thing done, and we are paying twice over for that now. Dewirements on more recent installations are much rarer, although like anything it can and does fail.

The conductor rail has been flooded short, buried in mudslips, iced over, and knocked off the 'pots' by a tamper, among other issues. It's not infallible. When it shorts it also often does mischief to the track circuits, so while it's usually quicker to repair it isn't always.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

I very rarely see news about the third rail being "down" for whatever weather reason. Far more reliable than OLE.

Just because the media doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'd love to see a delay analysis per passenger/KM between the two though.

 

[Fastlane256]

Just because the media doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'd love to see a delay analysis per passenger/KM between the two though.

I would love to see that too. It would also be nice if the data weren't to be rigged like all the other train operator statistics, especially TPE.

 

[Stephen42]

I would love to see that too. It would also be nice if the data weren't to be rigged like all the other train operator statistics, especially TPE.

Expect someone has done the analysis at some point, not massively easy without the root causes as some cancellations would be to trains that use both at some point in the journey.

Some examples of 3rd rail issues from searching NetworkRailSE twitter feed for power over the last two weeks: Jan 16 Sole Street train stranded, many collector shoes ripped off. Jan 17 Sheerness branch trains unable to draw power. Jan 23 intermittent issues with City Beams drawing power at Charing Cross (possibly a separate issue with iced over 3rd rail that morning).

 

[yorksrob]

Every winter you get tabloid headlines about the Southern region being badly hit by iced conductor rails, while the OLE goes fine. The ECML (and Paddington-Heathrow) OLE was pushed to the limit of the budget to get the thing done, and we are paying twice over for that now. Dewirements on more recent installations are much rarer, although like anything it can and does fail.

The conductor rail has been flooded short, buried in mudslips, iced over, and knocked off the 'pots' by a tamper, among other issues. It's not infallible. When it shorts it also often does mischief to the track circuits, so while it's usually quicker to repair it isn't always.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==


Just because the media doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'd love to see a delay analysis per passenger/KM between the two though.

Well, we have plenty of issues up here with failed OLE, so spending billions converting third rail to it isn't a panacea.

 

[zwk500]

Well, we have plenty of issues up here with failed OLE, so spending billions converting third rail to it isn't a panacea.

If there was a panacea, there'd be no debate!

 

[yorksrob]

If there was a panacea, there'd be no debate!

Perhaps the true panacea is extending what we've got !

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps the true panacea is extending what we've got !

The RSSB aren't as sure...

 

[Fastlane256]

The RSSB aren't as sure...

To be fair, I have been told some horrific stories from someone working at the British transport police regarding third rail, I am unaware of the number of accidents on OLE, I feel like this needs a spreadsheet to weigh up the pros and cons

 

[zwk500]

To be fair, I have been told some horrific stories from someone working at the British transport police regarding third rail, I am unaware of the number of accidents on OLE, I feel like this needs a spreadsheet to weigh up the pros and cons

Careful now, or @yorksrob will be on your case!

 

[yorksrob]

The RSSB aren't as sure...

Well, they're clearly wrong otherwise it would have been removed years ago.
Is the privatised railway doing its job and visiting schools to warn people of the dangers ?

BR certainly did in my younger days.

 

[Fastlane256]

Well, they're clearly wrong otherwise it would have been removed years ago.
Is the privatised railway doing its job and visiting schools to warn people of the dangers ?

BR certainly did in my younger days.

They are warning children of the dangers. I know in surrey, they do it as part of a police force education program about general safety. And there is the obvious you Vs train campaign (network rail) . https://www.youvstrain.co.uk/

 

[A0]

Well, they're clearly wrong otherwise it would have been removed years ago.

Now you're being disingenuous, many safety standards change over time, but it doesn't demand an immediate removal of the installations to the previous standard - look at domestic wiring, when the standards change there isn't a requirement on every householder up and down the land to rip out their domestic wiring and upgrade it. However any future installation has to meet the standards in place at that time.

 

[yorksrob]

They are warning children of the dangers. I know in surrey, they do it as part of a police force education program about general safety. And there is the obvious you Vs train campaign (network rail) . https://www.youvstrain.co.uk/

We used to have a chap from BR visit at least twice during primary school and once during secondary

The one during secondary was particularly memorable because the driver had started during steam and he said how a colleague had experienced three fatalities in week and resigned.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The RSSB aren't as sure...

ORR are the ones who are saying No, Non, Nein, нет

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2023 ==

To be fair, I have been told some horrific stories from someone working at the British transport police regarding third rail, I am unaware of the number of accidents on OLE, I feel like this needs a spreadsheet to weigh up the pros and cons

despite the hazard of the exposed third rail it doesn't actually result in any material difference to incidents between people and OLE trespass is far far higher. Of course in todays world you wouldn't do it this way but there's not enough money or will to decarbonise existing diesel routes so this isn't going to happen.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Gradually with time I expect the third rail network (or at the very least the immediate lines surrounding London) to sort of be seen in the same kind of light as the Merseyrail network with dedicated metro style stock utilised.

We're already seeing this with the introduction of desiro city stock and aventras with the former reaching as far south as Littlehampton and Ashford international. I predict that a gradual transition to a one size fits all commuter/metro stock formula is more likely than a transition to OHLE.

We're at a point where the people travelling from Blackfriars to farringdon through the Thameslink core are using the same trains as locals travelling from west Worthing to Shoreham by sea. The lines between different types of stock on the 3rd rail network is getting blurred and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up just only using metro stock once the electrostars/desiros are eventually replaced.

 

[Irascible]

The panacea is batteries, doesn't matter how the power was originally delivered as long as there was some section that did it. Putting aside the issue of actually finding any capital to expend, I wonder what if any payoff point there is converting to OHLE. We know there's less power loss, but how are relative maintenance costs?