[Speculative] Ideas for First Glasgow service changes

[DC21]

Sundays I'd divert the X11 to serve the fort to and from Glasgow

 

[PaulMc7]

In May, it'll have been 10 years since Simplicity. Does anyone expect another major shakeup or have any ways you could shake things up?

For me, I'd still make a few due to the driver shortages although it 100% seems like Caledonia depot is far more affected than the other depots but is improving slightly month by month.

The changes I'd go with are as follows (Some are still the same as I've mentioned previously):

77- 4 an hour to Braehead but only 1 an hour extending to Glasgow Airport.

2- Increase to every 10 mins with 2 an hour being numbered 2A to Duntocher.

81- Replaced by 2A.

M60- Cut from 4 an hour to 3.

38/38A/38B/38C/38E- Extend 38B to Baillieston to replace axed 38E.

60/60A- Increase the 60 to every 20 minutes but cut the 60A to Milngavie to City Centre only.

10- Follow the X8 route around Pollok to and from Silverburn then continue as current route to City Centre. This also gives passengers coming from Cardonald/Ibrox/Cessnock an option to Leverndale Hospital with a short walk after the bus as well as a frequency increase and earlier/later services in North Pollok.

X8- Axed and replaced by changes to the 10.

5- Extend 1 an hour to Carmunnock.

31- Axe as route is partly covered by the 5 and altered 7A.

7/7A- Increase the 7 to every 15 minutes but make the 7A every 30 minutes from Osborne Street to Westburn. Alter the 7A route to Gorbals, Cathcart Road then Allison St, Hollybrook St then Calder St then normal route.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

In May, it'll have been 10 years since Simplicity. Does anyone expect another major shakeup or have any ways you could shake things up?

For me, I'd still make a few due to the driver shortages although it 100% seems like Caledonia depot is far more affected than the other depots but is improving slightly month by month.

The changes I'd go with are as follows (Some are still the same as I've mentioned previously):

77- 4 an hour to Braehead but only 1 an hour extending to Glasgow Airport.

2- Increase to every 10 mins with 2 an hour being numbered 2A to Duntocher.

81- Replaced by 2A.

M60- Cut from 4 an hour to 3.

38/38A/38B/38C/38E- Extend 38B to Baillieston to replace axed 38E.

60/60A- Increase the 60 to every 20 minutes but cut the 60A to Milngavie to City Centre only.

10- Follow the X8 route around Pollok to and from Silverburn then continue as current route to City Centre. This also gives passengers coming from Cardonald/Ibrox/Cessnock an option to Leverndale Hospital with a short walk after the bus as well as a frequency increase and earlier/later services in North Pollok.

X8- Axed and replaced by changes to the 10.

5- Extend 1 an hour to Carmunnock.

31- Axe as route is partly covered by the 5 and altered 7A.

7/7A- Increase the 7 to every 15 minutes but make the 7A every 30 minutes from Osborne Street to Westburn. Alter the 7A route to Gorbals, Cathcart Road then Allison St, Hollybrook St then Calder St then normal route.

If you axe the x8 you will have a fight on your hands as it's used by staff at Silverburn and Pollok locals going to Glasgow. It is also usually well loaded.

 

[PaulMc7]

If you axe the x8 you will have a fight on your hands as it's used by staff at Silverburn and Pollok locals going to Glasgow. It is also usually well loaded.

It is but the gaps on it usually end up massive due to how bad the congestion is on the M77 to the point the 10 can actually turn out to be quicker on occasion. It's also prone to not turning up at all at peak times too.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

60/60A- Increase the 60 to every 20 minutes but cut the 60A to Milngavie to City Centre only.

One of the busiest routes in Glasgow, what justification is there for this?

Did you consider the times past the hour in relation to the 61 from Maryhill Tesco southbound and in the opposite direction from Hope Street?


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X8- Axed and replaced by changes to the 10.

Effectively telling folk in Pollok not to bother taking the bus to the city centre,

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

If you axe the x8 you will have a fight on your hands as it's used by staff at Silverburn and Pollok locals going to Glasgow. It is also usually well loaded.

Continuing to even speak about hypothetical changes is one thing but in reality, on the streets, big changes are needed.

If overall reliability can be improved by removing a few services and if there are viable alternatives, it is clearly the way it needs to be simply because they are getting nowhere with not having enough drivers to operate the currently posted timetables.

In reality, the x8 being removed and the 10 replacing at least some of the route clearly seems a no brainer but perhaps even the 1C being removed and the 3 (or hypothetical 3A) replacing it.

By removing express services it does seem like it would massively impact on people, but in these tough times and also through necessity, people would still travel on these hypothetical changes to the x8/10 services even if it does take a bit longer on the 10.

 

[PaulMc7]

One of the busiest routes in Glasgow, what justification is there for this?

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Affectively telling folk in Pollok not to bother taking the bus to the city centre,

Bearsden to City Centre would gain a bus with the change to the 60/60A and for the likes of Shettleston, the 2 increases so that's covered too.

If you get stuck in motorway traffic, the 10 is quicker than the X8, from experience, plus the service in North Pollok would improve.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Bearsden to City Centre would gain a bus with the change to the 60/60A and for the likes of Shettleston, the 2 increases so that's covered too.

You would have to add in quite a bit of of additional time to the 60 as with less busses on the road they will be busier and loading times will increase therefor savings to buses and drivers could be minimal.

By running the 61 and 60 at different frequencies you would have buses timed to run together at certain times in the hour and gaps at other times in the hour.

If you get stuck in motorway traffic, the 10 is quicker than the X8 from experience plus the service in North Pollok would improve.

What about Braidcraft Road?

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31- Axe as route is partly covered by the 5 and altered 7A.

What about Cathcart Road at Mount Florida/Crosshill?

 

[PaulMc7]

You would have to add in quite a bit of of additional time to the 60 as with less busses on the road they will be busier and loading times will increase therefor savings to buses and drivers could be minimal.

By running the 61 and 60 at different frequencies you would have buses timed to run together at certain times in the hour and gaps at other times in the hour.

What about Braidcraft Road?

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What about Cathcart Road at Mount Florida/Crosshill?

Buses running together isn't an issue to be honest and I'd say it's something First barely care about either going by the current network.

Braidcraft Road in the part losing the 10 only has 3 stops citybound and isn't that long anyway for it to be a massive difference.

As for Cathcart Road, yes it's a bit of a bigger gap but Crosshill Station takes a lot of passengers anyway so realistically, it would be a short walk for some at most.

 

[adrock1976]

In May, it'll have been 10 years since Simplicity. Does anyone expect another major shakeup or have any ways you could shake things up?

For me, I'd still make a few due to the driver shortages although it 100% seems like Caledonia depot is far more affected than the other depots but is improving slightly month by month.

The changes I'd go with are as follows (Some are still the same as I've mentioned previously):

77- 4 an hour to Braehead but only 1 an hour extending to Glasgow Airport.

2- Increase to every 10 mins with 2 an hour being numbered 2A to Duntocher.

81- Replaced by 2A.

M60- Cut from 4 an hour to 3.

38/38A/38B/38C/38E- Extend 38B to Baillieston to replace axed 38E.

60/60A- Increase the 60 to every 20 minutes but cut the 60A to Milngavie to City Centre only.

10- Follow the X8 route around Pollok to and from Silverburn then continue as current route to City Centre. This also gives passengers coming from Cardonald/Ibrox/Cessnock an option to Leverndale Hospital with a short walk after the bus as well as a frequency increase and earlier/later services in North Pollok.

X8- Axed and replaced by changes to the 10.

5- Extend 1 an hour to Carmunnock.

31- Axe as route is partly covered by the 5 and altered 7A.

7/7A- Increase the 7 to every 15 minutes but make the 7A every 30 minutes from Osborne Street to Westburn. Alter the 7A route to Gorbals, Cathcart Road then Allison St, Hollybrook St then Calder St then normal route.

Regarding the letter variants of the 38, I would renumber the 38C back to the 36, and have it running Buchanan - Cumbernauld Town Centre via existing route to Lindsaybeg Road/Chyston Main Street, then Gartferry Road, then either:
1) via Mollinsburn, Condorrat Main Street, Condorrat North Ring (Morar Drive timing point), A8011 Glasgow Road, Seafar Roundabout, Greenfaulds Road, Jane's Brae, A8011 Glasgow Road, Cumbernauld TC

or 2)
via Westfield Road and Westfield Drive, Craiglinn Roundabout, Croy Station forecourt, Balloch Loop Road, Glen Fyne Road, Carrickstone Road, Old Inns, Cumbernauld Village, and Cumbernauld TC. The X3 in turn could run a revised route from Gartferry Road as 1) above.

It is noted that 2) above would take over the 348/403 Stuarts Coaches, and also the Dunns Coaches 34 and 35, and would provide far better journey opportunities. If it can be timed reasonably well, the north neighbourhoods would have a friendlier change at Cumbernauld Village for the X36/37 to and from Stirling and Falkirk. Also, residents would be able to get to and from medical appointments etc being as Dunns have the cheek to stop running at lunchtime, they do not feel like running on Saturdays, and the times on the bustimes.org website are total nonsense as they do not show the lunch break.

Also, from 1989 until some point in the mid 2000s, 2) above was the route of the 36.

 

[PaulMc7]

From my experiences over the last few months, I'd say having routes split in the city centre is completely pointless now due to reliability being unfixable across the network as a result of ridiculous car congestion so in order to improve the network. I'd combine routes so that there are fewer buses terminating in the city centre in order to create new links for people to use without changing bus. I find that buses also trip over each other far too much when a bus has a terminus in the city centre too. Osborne Street is particularly bad for this and also the area around Buchanan Bus Station as the traffic lights are so close to the exit.

The only ones I'd keep there are the 1/1A/1B/1E due to current route length with the 1C/1D extending as they are shorter, the Lanarkshire buses and the 77 due it to being an airport service.

I'd add the recovery time gained to each end so that it's possible to have 15-20 minutes at each end of the route as a minimum. Some services could adjust in frequency to keep the number of drivers required from increasing in the current times too.

Example combinations are:

X4 + 10 Knightswood to Silverburn
5 + 6A Castlemilk to Drumchapel
9 + 41 Paisley to Easterhouse
64 + M3 Carmyle to Milton

 

[Spsf3232]

From my experiences over the last few months, I'd say having routes split in the city centre is completely pointless now due to reliability being unfixable across the network as a result of ridiculous car congestion so in order to improve the network. I'd combine routes so that there are fewer buses terminating in the city centre in order to create new links for people to use without changing bus. I find that buses also trip over each other far too much when a bus has a terminus in the city centre too. Osborne Street is particularly bad for this and also the area around Buchanan Bus Station as the traffic lights are so close to the exit.

The only ones I'd keep there are the 1/1A/1B/1E due to current route length with the 1C/1D extending as they are shorter, the Lanarkshire buses and the 77 due it to being an airport service.

I'd add the recovery time gained to each end so that it's possible to have 15-20 minutes at each end of the route as a minimum. Some services could adjust in frequency to keep the number of drivers required from increasing in the current times too.

Example combinations are:

X4 + 10 Knightswood to Silverburn
5 + 6A Castlemilk to Drumchapel
9 + 41 Paisley to Easterhouse
64 + M3 Carmyle to Milton

The problem with city terminating services is that they still travel through the entire city centre.

There needs to be better terminating places so this doesn't need to happen. Just look at how well the 5 operates as that stops right on the edge of town and doesn't have to travel through the many pinch points

 

[PaulMc7]

The problem with city terminating services is that they still travel through the entire city centre.

There needs to be better terminating places so this doesn't need to happen. Just look at how well the 5 operates as that stops right on the edge of town and doesn't have to travel through the many pinch points

I use Osborne Street a lot and it's one of the worst places for a bus terminus in the city to be honest. I wouldn't say the 5 is always the most reliable of services either. I've definitely seen plenty of times where one comes in and leaves immediately as its late.

It's one of the main reasons for my idea. A lot of the buses can barely stop with how close together the bus stops are there.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’ve always said that 5 could be moved to operate from Cochrane St alongside the 21 terminus, this would allow other services to be spread out along Osborne St.

 

[PaulMc7]

I’ve always said that 5 could be moved to operate from Cochrane St alongside the 21 terminus, this would allow other services to be spread out along Osborne St.

It would certainly help Castlemilk residents if it followed the 21 route from Cochrane Street given how horrifically inconsistent the 75 is. Ideally, the 64 should be moved too as well as the 5 and you'd only need 2 bus stops. I'd have merged the 31 and 64 previously as it takes 2 buses out of Osborne St and they were the same frequency but First made that merge awkward by cutting the 64 to every 45 minutes next month.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

254 - Divert at Carfin to serve northern end of Ravenscraig development and Sports Facility via a short loop.

Motherwell bound - From Motherwell Road, New Craig Road, Plantation Road, New Craig Road, O’Donnell Way, New Craig Road, Motherwell Road.

Vice versa in reverse.

This road is generally free flowing with no traffic, so can’t imagine this journey adding more than 3-4 minutes, but would generate quite a few new journeys. Also, Sports Centre is a 10 minute walk from the college, so could attract a fair few students in the morning/afternoon.

I recently moved house from this area, and one of the reasons was the disconnected feeling. It was a 20 minute walk to the nearest bus stop from my home in Coney Drive. While it’s easy to say “it’s a new build development and everyone has cars”, not everyone wants to use the car, also the area had a lot of kids, teenagers and others who don’t drive. Also, the benefits of linking up the sports facility, new park and proximity to the college would be a benefit.

Edited to add: the recent Ravenscraig masterplan noted a bus gate planned between the area of land behind the Marstons Pub and the bottom of Coursington Road. This is clearly in mind with diverting a route into the area. Using the 254 for this would only leave a short 1/2 mile section between Carfin and Jerviston unserved, as the 242 joins Motherwell Road at Jerviston roundabout.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

X4 + 10 Knightswood to Silverburn

The city centre road network makes this unfeasible.

9 + 41 Paisley to Easterhouse

My assumption is that these routes terminate in the city because they were amongst the worst offenders for timekeeping. The 41 cross-city to Drumchapel only lasted for 3 years in the late 90s/early 00s and traditionally has only operated Easterhouse to city centre.

There hasn't been any routes from the Paisley Road corridor operating cross-city for a number of years. I wonder why that would be? Also notice that very little runs from Springburn cross-city as well these days.

 

[PaulMc7]

The city centre road network makes this unfeasible.



My assumption is that these routes terminate in the city because they were amongst the worst offenders for timekeeping. The 41 cross-city to Drumchapel only lasted for 3 years in the late 90s/early 00s and traditionally has only operated Easterhouse to city centre.

There hasn't been any routes from the Paisley Road corridor operating cross-city for a number of years. I wonder why that would be? Also notice that very little runs from Springburn cross-city as well these days.

The X4 + 10 route would be the easiest one to merge as it could literally stop at Central then right into Jamaica Street.

If you want to give people reasons to ditch cars then you need to create more options to do that and it shows in that Springburn corridor to be honest especially coming from Bishopbriggs. A lot of the buses just stopping in the city centre hasn't helped either as recovery time was cut too and people generally seem to hate getting 2 buses anywhere. That's why I've suggested what I have with more recovery time at each end of longer routes.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

The X4 + 10 route would be the easiest one to merge as it could literally stop at Central then right into Jamaica Street.

Is that not a banned right turn?

 

[PaulMc7]

Is that not a banned right turn?

The 59 does it currently and if there are any issues with Argyle Street, it's the way the 1s and X4 divert. I think it changed when under the bridge became one way or when Jamaica Street became one way. I may be wrong but I can't remember 100%.

 

[route101]

Always thought the 5 and 31 were quite reliable as they operated from Osborne Street. Do you remember when McGills operated bendy Citaros from Osborne Street? I have noticed the 267, 263 etc now go along St Vincent St then up Hope St and around to the bus station.

 

[KGGXXXY]

The X4 + 10 route would be the easiest one to merge as it could literally stop at Central then right into Jamaica Street.

If you want to give people reasons to ditch cars then you need to create more options to do that and it shows in that Springburn corridor to be honest especially coming from Bishopbriggs. A lot of the buses just stopping in the city centre hasn't helped either as recovery time was cut too and people generally seem to hate getting 2 buses anywhere. That's why I've suggested what I have with more recovery time at each end of longer routes.

The 10 is already interlinked with the 57 (changes at Silverburn) they keep shortening the 10 for time keeping including the upcoming changes from February (West Regent Street instead of Douglas Street).

 

[PaulMc7]

The 10 is already interlinked with the 57 (changes at Silverburn) they keep shortening the 10 for time keeping including the upcoming changes from February (West Regent Street instead of Douglas Street).

The 10 and 57 will be different frequencies from 5th February with the changes so it breaks that interlink for the first time in years.

 

[KGGXXXY]

The 10 and 57 will be different frequencies from 5th February with the changes so it breaks that interlink for the first time in years.

Oh I didn't know that, It does make sense to split those routes, the other option for merging routes would be the 10 & 41 literally using the same city centre terminus point from February 5th.

 

[PaulMc7]

Oh I didn't know that, It does make sense to split those routes, the other option for merging routes would be the 10 & 41 literally using the same city centre terminus point from February 5th.

That's a decent option. The only issue is the frequency difference with the 41 being every 15 minutes but the 10 will be every 30 minutes. I'm actually quite surprised that they didn't reduce the 57/57A to match the 10 as there normally isn't a change to one without the other.

The only thing I can think of is a dual merge where the X4 and 10 both combine with the 41 to fill in 2 journeys of the 4 an hour each.

Numbering is a whole other issue I never got to planning after posting the original discussion point with my idea for the merges but I guess a lot of options would be open for this as the 41 was an odd one out in the Simplicity changes in 2013. Obviously, the 43 and 46 are also in Easterhouse but the 60/60A became a thing as a result of the 40 renumbering and the 119 being axed for the 60A.

The X4 doesn't really tie into anything either although Lincoln Avenue has the 3 already so that could become anything. The 4 fitted a lot better in that corridor but it was cut back to Broomhill although the west end link was probably more beneficial at certain times of the day.

A rework of the numbering we have could maybe be done in order to sort out certain core areas but that's probably less likely to happen.

 

[adrock1976]

SNIP

A rework of the numbering we have could maybe be done in order to sort out certain core areas but that's probably less likely to happen.

Regarding renumbering, I would have the following below (all routes in the former Strathclyde Region, not just First Glasgow):

1-199 Glasgow, Renfrewshire, East Renfrewshire, East Dunbartonshire (including the former Cumbernauld & Kilsyth District)
200-299 North and South Lanarkshire (excluding Cumbernauld & Kilsyth DC)
300-399 West Dunbartonshire, Helensburgh
400-499 Ayrshire (all three councils)
500-599 Inverclyde
600-699 Minibus services supported by SPT
700-799 School and special event services
800-899 Works services or journeys running to/from a distant garage
900-999 Scottish Citylink
X prefix for limited stop and/or motorway services

The above would be a far simpler numbering system and would remove duplicate numbers e.g. in Glasgow there are 2 versions of the 38 - First Glasgow and McGills where the latter runs along Paisley Road West. The McGills 38 could easily be renumbered to the 138 for example.

 

[PaulMc7]

Regarding renumbering, I would have the following below (all routes in the former Strathclyde Region, not just First Glasgow):

1-199 Glasgow, Renfrewshire, East Renfrewshire, East Dunbartonshire (including the former Cumbernauld & Kilsyth District)
200-299 North and South Lanarkshire (excluding Cumbernauld & Kilsyth DC)
300-399 West Dunbartonshire, Helensburgh
400-499 Ayrshire (all three councils)
500-599 Inverclyde
600-699 Minibus services supported by SPT
700-799 School and special event services
800-899 Works services or journeys running to/from a distant garage
900-999 Scottish Citylink
X prefix for limited stop and/or motorway services

The above would be a far simpler numbering system and would remove duplicate numbers e.g. in Glasgow there are 2 versions of the 38 - First Glasgow and McGills where the latter runs along Paisley Road West. The McGills 38 could easily be renumbered to the 138 for example.

This is why I'm a fan of regulation even with private ownership. It would help new bus users a lot. I remember when First had a 138 to Newton Mearns funnily enough. I was quite young at the time so don't remember how long it lasted though.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

.

A rework of the numbering we have could maybe be done in order to sort out certain core areas but that's probably less likely to happen.

Messing with route numbers is never popular and it's frankly pointless and causes confusion. It also annoys the passengers; quite a lot of people will still say, for example, "the 60 , the old 40" when taking about a bus route.

 

[PaulMc7]

Messing with route numbers is never popular and it's frankly pointless and causes confusion. It also annoys the passengers; quite a lot of people will still say, for example, "the 60 , the old 40" when taking about a bus route.

I do it out of habit with the 2 and 6 to be fair. I will tend to think 62 and 66 a lot of the time. It works if it's done right. Anything annoys passengers these days too. If everything is coordinated and done properly as well as being properly explained with enough notice. Simplicity is an example of how not to do it. It was half done with the renumbering and a lot of areas didn't have the new timetables up on the day the changes kicked in. It's bizarre how that happened, as other areas like East Kilbride had the new timetables up days before the changes.

 

[route101]

This is why I'm a fan of regulation even with private ownership. It would help new bus users a lot. I remember when First had a 138 to Newton Mearns funnily enough. I was quite young at the time so don't remember how long it lasted though.

I remember the 138 to Newton Mearns, was usually an old Ailsa.