New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[swt_passenger]

In these days of health and safety crap everywhere why is a genuine risk like the bottleneck at the end of the gated platforms at KX being overlooked?

Sorry if this has already been posted but the mad rush and bottleneck are not safe after / before going on a 91 or HST set because of the sheer number of people.

The final rebuilt station layout is completely different, the concourse will be round the side, and the present gateline will be about 90% exit only.

What I'd suggest is stupid is that they've introduced some gates in advance when they should have awaited the full rebuild.

Numbers wise, there are no more passengers get off an ECML set, than arrive on similar length long distance trains at Paddington, Waterloo or Liverpool St.

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As it as been previously stated in post gates have to be set to accept all tickets for a period of time, once that period as passed be prepared for invalid tickets to be rejected.

They didn't at Waterloo IIRC. They were set up correctly the day they started.

 

[Failed Unit]

Paddington has it's problems, no barriers on platforms 1, 8 & 9. The barriers on the bridge never active when I use the station. The left baggage area the wrong side of the barrier so a good excuse to ticketless people.

To be honest if I was at the station 15 minutes before a HT or GC train was due I would buy from the TVM it isn't a long task. But the modern railways article by Alan Williams suggest they should let you past. Not sure about Grantham, a lot of people in the summer will arrive with no ticket on the Skegness route.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if the gates aren't really set to accept any ticket because they want to gradually ease people in, but rather that the software wasn't set up right.

I don't know what Cubic have been doing recently, but they've had engineers working on the computers all over the GN route, including King's Cross, since the start of the year and it seems to me that they've messed up and the 'solution' was to just accept anything!

Of course, from a PR point of view, it makes sense to explain a software f**k up as being an 'introductory period' or something.

 

[Aictos]

They could put HT & GC into the suburban platforms as these are currently 5-car trains? This would free up 12-car platforms in the main shed.
HT have used platform 9 on occasions in the past. Platform 9 can access the fast lines directly.

I expect in the peak hour there will still be several GN services from KX to supplement those coming from the TL core - some of these would still be 8 cars. There don't seem to be any plans announced to extend the platforms at stations like Baldock or Ashwell & Morden to take 12-cars but they can take 8 at the moment.
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The gates were in use when I came through at 07:55 this morning -there was a bit of a queue as there was only 1 gate allowing us to exit from platforms 1&2. Perhaps they give up at the end of the peak?

Thing is though Platforms 9 to 11 are heavily used by FCC and are restricted to only taking 8 car trains maximum, if you take Platform 10 into consideration it has a 4 car 365 in it most of the day on standby duties during the weekday until the evening peak when I think it joins another 365 to form a peak service.

In a ideal world, there would be a new suburban station consisting of 6 platforms all capable of taking 12 cars with the disused route though the eastern tunnel bores between Holloway and Kings Cross being brought back into service.

At the time of Thameslink being reopened, BR ought to have removed the connection at Farringdon which is what Network Rail has done to enable 12 car platforms at Farringdon but left the south west to north east curve in place at Snow Hill Junction with 3rd rail and use it to run a truncated Moorgate to Moorgate via Sutton service.

 

[Deerfold]

If Kings Cross is a network rail station why are you writting to East Coast about gate performance, surely it should by your logic be directed to NR?
As it as been previously stated in post gates have to be set to accept all tickets for a period of time, once that period as passed be prepared for invalid tickets to be rejected.
I hope they gave you answer to your enquiry on price of bacon in their reply

You seem to be just trying to be argumentative for its own sake and ignoring any questions directed at you. Is there any reason you know of that perople wanting but on HT and GC will be unable to? If not is there a problem there? (I know there's plenty of other problems with the barriers).

 

[transmanche]

I wonder if the gates aren't really set to accept any ticket because they want to gradually ease people in, but rather that the software wasn't set up right.

When the barriers were installed at Newcastle, the information posters specifically stated that they would accept any ticket during the testing period; so that people could get used to the barriers. It seems logical that the same applies at Kings Cross...

 

[Greenback]

Have no problem with HT & GC selling full range of tickets onboard but at a gated station passenger as no right to demand to be let through to buy onboard, that just encourages ticketless travel as everyone will say that to avoid buying a ticket so Rule1 applies go buy a ticket.

Do you mean go off and buy the cheapest ticket to get you through the pointless barrier?
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You seem to be just trying to be argumentative for its own sake and ignoring any questions directed at you. Is there any reason you know of that perople wanting but on HT and GC will be unable to? If not is there a problem there? (I know there's plenty of other problems with the barriers).

Blacknight, you are just winding everyone up aren't you!

 

[jon0844]

I stand corrected then.

The incompetence of Cubic/FCC in updating the gateline software must be a separate issue, and it's very frustrating. Luckily the fuss at King's Cross means the staff aren't at some stations along the GN route, meaning I can just walk through the open gates!

 

[Oswyntail]

Mrs O had an odd moment on her way home this week. Tried her ticket in a few of the gates, but had it refused. Had to search for an operative to let her through. He looked at her ticket, listened to her story, then asked "Well, why won't it work?". Seemed to expect her to know, and was unwilling to let her through until she had explained why. Fortunately, no one lasts long in an argument when Mrs O is right!

 

[blacknight]

You seem to be just trying to be argumentative for its own sake and ignoring any questions directed at you. Is there any reason you know of that perople wanting but on HT and GC will be unable to? If not is there a problem there? (I know there's plenty of other problems with the barriers).

Simple logic if you go to the trouble of gating a station the fairest system to operate is you need a ticket to get through to platform. Image for instance you are running gateline & passenger sees you let a ticketless HT/GC passenger through gates, how do you then justify your position of not letting a ticketless EC passenger board? After all you can still buy ticket on EC but its an open ticket without railcard discount. Even Northern Trains which operate large number of Pay Trains, state state you must if ticket offce is open at station which you boarded at you should buy ticket before boarding otherwise is an undiscounted ticket
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Do you mean go off and buy the cheapest ticket to get you through the pointless barrier?

I never said automated ticket gates are perfect me I much more prefer the "hands on fully interactive" manual checking of tickets, find lots of forgetful passengers leaving railcard & photo id cards at home but employing staff costs wages. Even with a manual gate if person as cheapest valid ticket you cannot stop them getting onto platforms or train.

 

[Deerfold]

Simple logic if you go to the trouble of gating a station the fairest system to operate is you need a ticket to get through to platform. Image for instance you are running gateline & passenger sees you let a ticketless HT/GC passenger through gates, how do you then justify your position of not letting a ticketless EC passenger board? After all you can still buy ticket on EC but its an open ticket without railcard discount.

I can see your point but then I didn't think this was a sensible place to put gates in the first place.

I never said automated ticket gates are perfect me I much more prefer the "hands on fully interactive" manual checking of tickets, find lots of forgetful passengers leaving railcard & photo id cards at home but employing staff costs wages. Even with a manual gate if person as cheapest valid ticket you cannot stop them getting onto platforms or train.

I can't see where you're saving on staff. The gates seem to need as much staffing as the manual gates.

 

[jon0844]

Image for instance you are running gateline & passenger sees you let a ticketless HT/GC passenger through gates, how do you then justify your position of not letting a ticketless EC passenger board? After all you can still buy ticket on EC but its an open ticket without railcard discount.

You say that the passenger let through was boarding a train that allows ticket purchases onboard. Then, say that EC will charge for a full price open ticket with no discount and see if they're happy with that. If they are, let them through.

This is why EC must continue to check tickets on the train. Not that I've heard anything to suggest that they are going to stop.

 

[blacknight]

I can't see where you're saving on staff. The gates seem to need as much staffing as the manual gates.

By employing agency staff company to man gates company can make cost savings by not having to pay NI contributions & sick pay for employees.

 

[jon0844]

Can agency staff get any union protection, or indeed any other staff benefits? I presume not, at least unless they've been employed for a certain length of time (and, wouldn't any company simply ensure that they change staff regularly?).

 

[blacknight]

You say that the passenger let through was boarding a train that allows ticket purchases onboard. Then, say that EC will charge for a full price open ticket with no discount and see if they're happy with that. If they are, let them through.

This is why EC must continue to check tickets on the train. Not that I've heard anything to suggest that they are going to stop.

Letting passengers through defeats the object of having gates, by letting a business suit through you would also have to let hoodie through that person or you stand accused of branding them a fare evader without any evidence. Person you let through might go hide in toilet to try & get a free ride or on discovering price of open ticket object which leads to train being delayed at another station whilst unpaid fare is dealt with. Its far easier to get fare out of person at start of the journey rather than journeys end.

 

[Deerfold]

By employing agency staff company to man gates company can make cost savings by not having to pay NI contributions & sick pay for employees.

It's usually more expensive long term though as you're paying the fees to the agency. The alternative is that they're being paid vastly less than normal rail staff which suggests the sort of problems reported at Piccadilly with staff who don't actually know which tickets should be allowed.

 

[blacknight]

Can agency staff get any union protection, or indeed any other staff benefits? I presume not, at least unless they've been employed for a certain length of time (and, wouldn't any company simply ensure that they change staff regularly?).

Agency staff can join union but as for other staff benefits you persume correctly, know staff who have been on job for over a year still on agency T&C which equals Sweet FA. IMO is it right & fair NO Waiting to see what impact 2011 Agency Worker Act will have in October
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It's usually more expensive long term though as you're paying the fees to the agency. The alternative is that they're being paid vastly less than normal rail staff which suggests the sort of problems reported at Piccadilly with staff who don't actually know which tickets should be allowed.

I know that & you know that sadly Top Table management as I differing view on this matter as company costs are reduced by either employing agency staff or subcontracting revenue protection, but have little control over quality of staff doing these duties.

 

[jon0844]

Letting passengers through defeats the object of having gates, by letting a business suit through you would also have to let hoodie through that person or you stand accused of branding them a fare evader without any evidence.

That is a problem, sure, and you can't tell if the suit is the evader or the hoodie.

But, as I said before, staff would (should?) be within their rights to stop passengers coming through to board the GC or HT service until it has been announced, maybe 5 or 10 minutes before departure. A fare evader now needs to plan his or her journey around one of these services.

Given there are other ways to bypass the gates (like the single to Finsbury Park) there is no foolproof system, but when backed up by the checks on the trains the problem is reduced. If people are going to hide in the toilet, that's a separate problem again and not cause to get rid of gates or consider them useless.

I am sure the gates will put off most chancers. Hefty penalties (full open, non discounted tickets on the train) or even a referral to court should deter most people. FCC has the most to lose from people getting a ticket one stop, but can still 'win' in the long run by having more checks on the trains and coming down hard on those who are caught without the right ticket. Once the gates are in operation at both King's Cross and Finsbury Park, it will be much easier for FCC to prosecute.

For me, I see gates and on-train checks as being as essential as each other.

 

[transmanche]

Given there are other ways to bypass the gates (like the single to Finsbury Park) there is no foolproof system

I've seen mentioned elsewhere that gates can be set to reject certain categories of ticket. Can the same be done for tickets to certain destinations? Could/would/should they reject tickets to Finsbury Park? Or indeed to tickets to any station south of Peterborough, at times when there are no FCC trains using those platforms?

 

[jon0844]

Rejecting tickets to FPK might be an idea. However, it must be said that a lot of people DO just go to FPK and so it will likely cause problems at the gates in terms of queues.

I presume people go overground for an easy change to a slow train that started at Moorgate, as against using the tube and going up the stairs.

Far better to do checks on the train after leaving FPK, sufficiently frequent enough that it seems likely you'll get done.. and as long as RPIs don't opt for £20 PFs and go for court visits, it may stop the practice. Word does get around between people on what scams do, and don't, work.

 

[Aictos]

While I am aware of the FCC barriers ability to block specific stations, I don't know if the East Coast barriers at Kings Cross do as well.

 

[transmanche]

Could/would/should they reject tickets to Finsbury Park? Or indeed to tickets to any station south of Peterborough, at times when there are no FCC trains using those platforms?

Rejecting tickets to FPK might be an idea. However, it must be said that a lot of people DO just go to FPK and so it will likely cause problems at the gates in terms of queues.

Quite, but I was referring specifically to the new gates in the main station.

I'm guessing the vast majority of trains calling at Finsbury Park depart from platforms 9-11 and not from platforms 0-5. That's why I asked if the gates can reject tickets to specific stations "at times when there are no FCC trains using those platforms"?

 

[Greenback]

I never said automated ticket gates are perfect me I much more prefer the "hands on fully interactive" manual checking of tickets, find lots of forgetful passengers leaving railcard & photo id cards at home but employing staff costs wages. Even with a manual gate if person as cheapest valid ticket you cannot stop them getting onto platforms or train.

I am not against ticket gates at all, but they are not appropriate for every location.

They seem to work well at Swansea, where staff are happy to elt people on to the platform without a travel ticket. They do tend to ensure that people coming in from unbarriered stations, like Llanelli, have to get some sort of ticket to get off the platforms, and they also succeed in keeping undesirables off the platform. (Without the barriers the toilets would undoubtedly be junkie heaven).

 

[Failed Unit]

I've seen mentioned elsewhere that gates can be set to reject certain categories of ticket. Can the same be done for tickets to certain destinations? Could/would/should they reject tickets to Finsbury Park? Or indeed to tickets to any station south of Peterborough, at times when there are no FCC trains using those platforms?

The main problem with that is that trains can be allocated different platforms at very short notice, so if you got a full great northern train show up on platform 0 {they seem to use that platform a lot} and the whole train gets rejected you would have massive queues and very *@*@ed off passengers, couple that to the sods law that an east coast will show up before everyone on the great northern service has gone and you have choas. Something like a unit failing to change voltage at Drayton park can soon cause choas.

Likewise if you barred say Finsbury Park it would really annoy the legitimate users of that station just like when railcards are always reject, why should the be subject to massive delays day in day out?

 

[transmanche]

I've seen mentioned elsewhere that gates can be set to reject certain categories of ticket. Can the same be done for tickets to certain destinations? Could/would/should they reject tickets to Finsbury Park? Or indeed to tickets to any station south of Peterborough, at times when there are no FCC trains using those platforms?

The main problem with that is that trains can be allocated different platforms at very short notice, so if you got a full great northern train show up on platform 0 {they seem to use that platform a lot} and the whole train gets rejected you would have massive queues and very *@*@ed off passengers, couple that to the sods law that an east coast will show up before everyone on the great northern service has gone and you have choas. Something like a unit failing to change voltage at Drayton park can soon cause choas.

Well I haven't commuted on that route for many years, but back in the day only two things would see a Moorgate train diverted into Kings Cross; failing the tripcock test at Finsbury Park, or no guard being available (no DOO between Finsbury Park and Moorgate back then). Both events would prompt a mass evacuation of the train as most passengers would decamp to the tube at Finsbury Park, rather than wait until Kings Cross.

Likewise if you barred say Finsbury Park it would really annoy the legitimate users of that station just like when railcards are always reject, why should the be subject to massive delays day in day out?

Again, how many passengers will be boarding trains at platforms 0-5 with specific Finsbury Park tickets? How many would be doing that journey 'day in day out'? Remember, we're not talking about the gates on platforms 9-11, just the ones at platforms 0-5.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well I haven't commuted on that route for many years, but back in the day only two things would see a Moorgate train diverted into Kings Cross; failing the tripcock test at Finsbury Park, or no guard being available (no DOO between Finsbury Park and Moorgate back then). Both events would prompt a mass evacuation of the train as most passengers would decamp to the tube at Finsbury Park, rather than wait until Kings Cross.

Again, how many passengers will be boarding trains at platforms 0-5 with specific Finsbury Park tickets? How many would be doing that journey 'day in day out'? Remember, we're not talking about the gates on platforms 9-11, just the ones at platforms 0-5.

Now such a failure will result in the train continuing towards Kings Cross, when I commuted on the route I would stay on the train to get the Northern line to Moorgate.

I can't comment on how many people from Kings Cross want to get off at Finsbury Park, I do suspect that many of them use the tube, but although the majority of great northern services use 9-11 but there are also a lot that do use the main shed. Just the other day the 1252 was on Platform 8 {good considering it is the Great Northern route rather than east coast with the major fare evasion problem}

You would need to reject a lot of tickets, the rumour mill would get around and they would just use Hornsey etc instead. So as illuded in another post you are back to rejecting pretty much any great northern ticket, along with Z1-6 tickets etc.

I used to use Kings Cross and change for New Barnet a lot, so I would be very annoyed if my ticket was rejected everytime my train was in the mainshed, which was more frequent then you would think.

 

[transmanche]

I can't comment on how many people from Kings Cross want to get off at Finsbury Park, I do suspect that many of them use the tube, but although the majority of great northern services use 9-11 but there are also a lot that do use the main shed. Just the other day the 1252 was on Platform 8.

Again, not platforms 0-5. So you wouldn't have been affected if tickets to selected stations were rejected by the gates.

I appreciate your points. But I'm really trying to understand what the real effect would be if tickets to certain stations (e.g. Finsbury Park, or all stations south of Stevenage) were rejected by the platform 0-5 gates at certain times of the day. Would it really cause massive inconvenience to large numbers of passengers?

You would need to reject a lot of tickets, the rumour mill would get around and they would just use Hornsey etc instead.

Of course the smart fare dodger would quickly have sussed that the cash fare to Hornsey is less than the cash fare to Finsbury Park...

 

[Failed Unit]

Again, not platforms 0-5. So you wouldn't have been affected if tickets to selected stations were rejected by the gates.

I appreciate your points. But I'm really trying to understand what the real effect would be if tickets to certain stations (e.g. Finsbury Park, or all stations south of Stevenage) were rejected by the platform 0-5 gates at certain times of the day. Would it really cause massive inconvenience to large numbers of passengers?

Probably not, but as I have said Great Northern services are frequently platformed in 0. This may alter when Kings Cross is rebuilt but when you get a lot of HSTs / 180s in Kings Cross this forces the great Northern EMUs into 0 as it can't take diesel units. But I do accept your point that it is probably less than 30 per great northern train.

Of course the smart fare dodger would quickly have sussed that the cash fare to Hornsey is less than the cash fare to Finsbury Park...

Really - Crazy!

 

[transmanche]

Of course the smart fare dodger would quickly have sussed that the cash fare to Hornsey is less than the cash fare to Finsbury Park...

Really - Crazy!

Yep, London Underground fares apply between Kings Cross/Moorgate and Finsbury Park- so it's £4 for cash if you go in Z1 (or as little as £1.90 on Oyster for Z1-2). National Rail fare to Hornsey (Z1-3) is £3.40 for cash (or as little as £2 on Oyster).

 

[jon0844]

The reason a lot of people probably go to FPK in the peak is that there aren't many (any?) trains that stop at stations like Hornsey, as they're reserved for the slows from Moorgate. Thus, they board a train and swap from platform 5 to 6 - as against taking the tube (which might be crowded, or delayed, and you're out of phone coverage etc).

If the gates were linked to the realtime running of the trains and platforms, you could begin to be a lot more clever but I assume they're not and are just dumb terminals that are configured by staff on the ground. I suspect no staff will want to go messing around with the configurations based on which trains are coming/going.. especially as ultimately the station layout and use of the gates is going to change anyway.

Nice ideas though... and certainly things to think about for future station building and route planning.