South Wales 'Metro' updates

[76020]

Exactly. And the depots are getting overhead line (strictly it'll be rigid overhead) in the stabling sidings to ensure that the units go out of the depot with their batteries fully charged. Both depots are "islands" of electrification - in the case of Taff's Well there's no wiring in the line connecting the depot to the main line, and in the case of Canton there'll be no wiring between Canton and Cardiff Central or Ninian Park. The FLIRTs have diesel engines but I'm pretty sure TfW are trying to minimise use of diesel in urban areas, and particularly in stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2023 ==


No. The Class 398 trains on the Aberdare, Merthyr and Treherbert lines don't have diesel engines, but they do have batteries. The Class 756s have both diesel engines and batteries, but should have sufficient battery power to avoid using diesel through the city centre (and possibly further - some people have suggested they could reach Penarth and even Barry on diesel). If you watch the video from the PWI the presenters explain how they planned the network to provide overhead power only where it was necessary and easy to install, because the trains using the route all have onboard batteries.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2023 ==

The trains will actually switch between overhead and battery power pretty frequently - if you look at the map (PDF file at the bottom of this post) only the lines shown in blue on a white background are live overhead. The blue on a yellow background means permanently earthed sections (i.e. there's a wire there, so the trains' pantograph remains up, but it's earthed and delivers no power), and the black lines mean no wires at all. So a train leaving Queen St for Pontypridd would run on battery to Gabalfa, put the pantograph up and pick up some power, use battery to negotiate earthed sections around Llandaff, stay on power to just beyond Radyr, then lower the pantograph and run on battery to just beyond Taff's Well, then pan up as far as Treforest, then pan down again to Pontypridd. The pantograph actuators are certainly going to get plenty of work! No doubt there will be some teething problems. It's also worth noting that stations that stable trains overnight and don't have overhead (Queen St, Central, Pontypridd, Merthyr, for example) will have shore supplies so a train can be "plugged in" overnight and start its shift with a full battery.

Thank you for clarifying the electrification boundaries. TFW are doing their best with the money they have available, even though it is not an ideal solution as regards leaving parts of Metro unwired.

 

[59CosG95]

Thank you for clarifying the electrification boundaries. TFW are doing their best with the money they have available, even though it is not an ideal solution as regards leaving parts of Metro unwired.

Another reason why the gap through Cardiff Central & Ninian Park isn't being wired is that the tracks through there are still owned by Network Rail, and the Metro electrification work is only on those lines for which ownership has been transferred to TfW. The newest Western Sectional Appendix shows TfW-owned infrastructure with a "TfW - CVL" box.

 

[MikePJ]

This conjures up a picture of the scientists collaring Prof. Mark Barry in the Senior Common Room.

"Look Mark, this Metro of yours sounds great - climate change, easier for the students to get here and all that. We'll probably have a ride ourselves when it starts. But those electromagnetic fields aren't going to help our experiments"

"Oh I see. Understood. I'll speak to the electrification planners. One more gap past your building won't make much difference."

A very amusing image indeed (speaking as a Cardiff Uni academic myself...) but I fear the truth is more prosaic!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2023 ==

Thank you for clarifying the electrification boundaries. TFW are doing their best with the money they have available, even though it is not an ideal solution as regards leaving parts of Metro unwired.

Sorry - wasn't intending to come across as critical of TfW - I think it's broadly a good scheme.

 

[S-Bahn]

Exactly. And the depots are getting overhead line (strictly it'll be rigid overhead) in the stabling sidings to ensure that the units go out of the depot with their batteries fully charged. Both depots are "islands" of electrification - in the case of Taff's Well there's no wiring in the line connecting the depot to the main line, and in the case of Canton there'll be no wiring between Canton and Cardiff Central or Ninian Park. The FLIRTs have diesel engines but I'm pretty sure TfW are trying to minimise use of diesel in urban areas, and particularly in stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2023 ==


No. The Class 398 trains on the Aberdare, Merthyr and Treherbert lines don't have diesel engines, but they do have batteries. The Class 756s have both diesel engines and batteries, but should have sufficient battery power to avoid using diesel through the city centre (and possibly further - some people have suggested they could reach Penarth and even Barry on diesel). If you watch the video from the PWI the presenters explain how they planned the network to provide overhead power only where it was necessary and easy to install, because the trains using the route all have onboard batteries.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2023 ==

The trains will actually switch between overhead and battery power pretty frequently - if you look at the map (PDF file at the bottom of this post) only the lines shown in blue on a white background are live overhead. The blue on a yellow background means permanently earthed sections (i.e. there's a wire there, so the trains' pantograph remains up, but it's earthed and delivers no power), and the black lines mean no wires at all. So a train leaving Queen St for Pontypridd would run on battery to Gabalfa, put the pantograph up and pick up some power, use battery to negotiate earthed sections around Llandaff, stay on power to just beyond Radyr, then lower the pantograph and run on battery to just beyond Taff's Well, then pan up as far as Treforest, then pan down again to Pontypridd. The pantograph actuators are certainly going to get plenty of work! No doubt there will be some teething problems. It's also worth noting that stations that stable trains overnight and don't have overhead (Queen St, Central, Pontypridd, Merthyr, for example) will have shore supplies so a train can be "plugged in" overnight and start its shift with a full battery.

I'm not the only one who thinks this FREQUENT switching back and forth from the OLE to batteries is a potential major point of failure and disruption, am I?

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm not the only one who thinks this FREQUENT switching back and forth from the OLE to batteries is a potential major point of failure and disruption, am I?

No you're not. The Rhymney-Vale Flirts throw a diesel engine into the mix too, of course.

 

[oglord]

I'm not the only one who thinks this FREQUENT switching back and forth from the OLE to batteries is a potential major point of failure and disruption, am I?

No you are not. Discontinuous electrification is a terrible idea. There should at least be permanently earthed sections instead of no wires at all, otherwise it is just a matter of time before either the pantograph or the beginning of a wired section is damaged.

 

[Bob Price]

It has been used elsewhere apparently. I do think paragraph down on the move and pan up at stations would avoid issues more. Pan up on the move is doable, the 800 series can switch from electric to diesel even at high speed. I am guessing this something being tested on the units up in Derbyshire.

 

[59CosG95]

No you are not. Discontinuous electrification is a terrible idea. There should at least be permanently earthed sections instead of no wires at all, otherwise it is just a matter of time before either the pantograph or the beginning of a wired section is damaged.

AFAICT from the map (Rev P09, dated 21/11/22), the non-wired sections are planned to be at:

• Northern end of Merthyr branch (Merthyr Tydfil) - presumably to save installing fixings on the Grade II Listed Viaduct
• Through Quakers Yard station - presumably to save installing viaduct fixings on the viaduct south of the station (was previously planned for OLE to be physically present and live)
• Through Bargeod station - presumably to save installing viaduct fixings on the viaduct north of the station, and underbridge fixings on the covered way/tunnel immediately south of it
• Through Hengoed station - presumably to avoid alterations on the Maesycwmmer viaduct which crosses the line south of the station, and to avoid replacing the Grade II listed footbridge
• Through Pontypridd station - IIRC Platform 2 is set lower than Platform 3 which would seem to cause all sorts of electrical issues, plus the viaducts north of the station, plus the retaining wall supporting the route between Ponty & Treforest, plus the listed canopies
  • Rhondda Viaduct (THT line) - Grade II listed
  • Pontypridd Viaduct (CAM line) - Grade II listed
• Through Llanbradach station - presumably to avoid replacing the Grade II Listed footbridge
• Caerphilly to Lisvane & Thornhill - presumably to avoid bridge reconstructions near the stations, but definitely also to prevent replacing every metal drainage pipe within Caerphilly Tunnel with a modern plastic equivalent
• Taff's Well to Gelynis Farm O/B - presumably to avoid reconstructing every O/B between the two points, and also to save installing viaduct fixings where the line crosses the Taff
• Jn for Coryton/Rhymney Lines south to Queen St - presumably to avoid viaduct fixings over the A48 and bridge reconstructions
• West of Cathays, thro' Cathays to Queen St - presumably to avoid viaduct fixings over the A48 and bridge reconstructions, along with the aforementioned Cardiff Uni electrical equipment issue
• Between Waun-Gron Park & Ninian Park - TfW/CVL & NR Route Boundary is at RAD 1m 20ch so any OLE on mileage lower than that is NR's problem
• Cardiff Queen St to Butetown - presumably to avoid wiring through the complex station layout and on the viaducts over the A4161 (north of stn) & SWL (south of stn)
• Cardiff Queen St to Ninian Park via Central - TfW/CVL & NR Route Boundary is at CAM 0m 13ch so any OLE on mileage lower than that is NR's problem, plus the viaduct issue

So the Rhymney Line seems to be the one with the most discontinuous sections, although the Aberdare & Merthyr routes don't escape unscathed. Beyond Pontypridd, only the Treherbert route has a continuous run of wire.
On the plus side, the Rhymney line has more OLE on it than the Rev. P06 plans in early 2020...

 

[allaction]

AFAICT from the map (Rev P09, dated 21/11/22), the non-wired sections are planned to be at:

• Northern end of Merthyr branch (Merthyr Tydfil) - presumably to save installing fixings on the Grade II Listed Viaduct
• Through Quakers Yard station - presumably to save installing viaduct fixings on the viaduct south of the station (was previously planned for OLE to be physically present and live)
• Through Bargeod station - presumably to save installing viaduct fixings on the viaduct north of the station, and underbridge fixings on the covered way/tunnel immediately south of it
• Through Hengoed station - presumably to avoid alterations on the Maesycwmmer viaduct which crosses the line south of the station, and to avoid replacing the Grade II listed footbridge
• Through Pontypridd station - IIRC Platform 2 is set lower than Platform 3 which would seem to cause all sorts of electrical issues, plus the viaducts north of the station, plus the retaining wall supporting the route between Ponty & Treforest, plus the listed canopies
  • Rhondda Viaduct (THT line) - Grade II listed
  • Pontypridd Viaduct (CAM line) - Grade II listed
• Through Llanbradach station - presumably to avoid replacing the Grade II Listed footbridge
• Caerphilly to Lisvane & Thornhill - presumably to avoid bridge reconstructions near the stations, but definitely also to prevent replacing every metal drainage pipe within Caerphilly Tunnel with a modern plastic equivalent
• Taff's Well to Gelynis Farm O/B - presumably to avoid reconstructing every O/B between the two points, and also to save installing viaduct fixings where the line crosses the Taff
• Jn for Coryton/Rhymney Lines south to Queen St - presumably to avoid viaduct fixings over the A48 and bridge reconstructions
• West of Cathays, thro' Cathays to Queen St - presumably to avoid viaduct fixings over the A48 and bridge reconstructions, along with the aforementioned Cardiff Uni electrical equipment issue
• Between Waun-Gron Park & Ninian Park - TfW/CVL & NR Route Boundary is at RAD 1m 20ch so any OLE on mileage lower than that is NR's problem
• Cardiff Queen St to Butetown - presumably to avoid wiring through the complex station layout and on the viaducts over the A4161 (north of stn) & SWL (south of stn)
• Cardiff Queen St to Ninian Park via Central - TfW/CVL & NR Route Boundary is at CAM 0m 13ch so any OLE on mileage lower than that is NR's problem, plus the viaduct issue

So the Rhymney Line seems to be the one with the most discontinuous sections, although the Aberdare & Merthyr routes don't escape unscathed. Beyond Pontypridd, only the Treherbert route has a continuous run of wire.
On the plus side, the Rhymney line has more OLE on it than the Rev. P06 plans in early 2020...

Gantries have definitely gone up between Waun-Gron Park and Ninian Park (well, certainly in the section next to Waun-Gron Park station, at least) - I am gazing on them as I tap away at home…

 

[Last Hurrah]

Masts extend past Waungron Park Station and Ely Moors Lane Bridge (RAD 1m 52.5ch) ending at RAD 1m 39ch

Sanatorium Road Bridge is at RAD 1m 24ch

TFW/CVL & NR Route Boundary is RAD 1m 20ch
(This is part way along Lansdowne Avenue East CF11 8BU)

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Great to hear some progress, when will the first bits of electrification go live?

 

[MikePJ]

Great to hear some progress, when will the first bits of electrification go live?

Beginning of June. See this post for much more detail.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No you're not. The Rhymney-Vale Flirts throw a diesel engine into the mix too, of course.

Ultimately if they have accurately specified the duty and done a robust assessment on proposals meets requirements no need to be concerned. I would have also had a requirement for a factory mock up somewhere to stress test duty cycle on the components. Its also a shame the Welsh test track isn't open yet as be nothing better than recreating the situation and running a train round and round round... to see if it breaks or not.

 

[Bob Price]

Apparently 50 million pounds has been given to the bid to create the rail link between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Bay. Not seen any plans, drawings etc showing a route but some positive news for development of rail in the capital. BBC article linked with the news.
BBC News - Levelling Up: £50m for new Cardiff rail line announced

Levelling up: Projects across Wales share £208m in funding

There is also money for an engineering campus and a Llandudno Junction to Betws y Coed bike route.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[sefyllian]

Always good to see the network expanding, but I can’t help thinking that central Cardiff must surely be the area of Wales least in need of “levelling up”. There are already decent public transport options to get down the Bay, so this wouldn’t have been my priority. But still, will be interesting to see how it develops. It’s only about 500m of new track, and presumably one or two new platforms to the south of Central. Since both ends are elevated, I wonder if the whole extension will cross Callaghan Square on a viaduct, or whether it’ll go down to street level (and have to cross the busy junctions there).

 

[CardiffKid]

WG plans/aspirations a few years back had trams at ground level in the Car Park at the back of Central, before continuing through the new Brewery development and onto Grangetown.

I think it’s safe to bet that the new platforms will be street level and not elevated.

Over to the WG to push through the Cardiff Bay/Docks/Tremorfa line now I guess.

 

[Bob Price]

That was my thought as well. Coming out the station where the old Riverside platforms were and then link to join the Bay line. Probably single track. BTW the reason for just this but is because Cardiff Council bid for the money. The Welsh Government had no say and was not allowed to bid for anything. So much for respecting devolved government

 

[CardiffKid]

Danger of straying into a post that that will probably get moved to traction & rolling stock here, but here me out...

If this project comes to fruition in it's current form and only it's current form, it would be a safe assumption that the tram-trains (398s) will be at street level for the whole journey and will run as a shuttle between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Bay (similar to the current Queen Street - Bay operation today) - Will that require extra rolling stock and if so they will need to be modified for on street running something none of the current/soon to arrive 36 have?

​

 

[Envoy]

Danger of straying into a post that that will probably get moved to traction & rolling stock here, but here me out...

If this project comes to fruition in it's current form and only it's current form, it would be a safe assumption that the tram-trains (398s) will be at street level for the whole journey and will run as a shuttle between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Bay (similar to the current Queen Street - Bay operation today) - Will that require extra rolling stock and if so they will need to be modified for on street running something none of the current/soon to arrive 36 have?

​

Not sure about getting across Callaghan Square but it looks like the line to the Bay will be segregated and at a higher level to Bute Street & Lloyd George Avenue.

Work to begin on new railway station in Cardiff

The existing station will also be redeveloped as part of the project

www.walesonline.co.uk

Work on the track itself will start early this year and a new timetable will be implemented from 2024. Butetown and Cardiff Bay residents living close to the railway line have been contacted with details of the construction and engineering work taking place in the area. Cardiff Bay station will remain open for passengers while the work is taking place, TfW has confirmed.

 

[MikePJ]

Looking at the most recent TfW infrastructure plans map from earlier this month, the extension is sketched in here as a single line platform at Central which then becomes double-track in Callaghan Square, before then joining the Bay line at the new Butetown station. I'd also speculate that the design probably involves removing the roundabout in Callaghan Square and reducing the number of traffic lanes in order to make space for the tram tracks. But I'm sure we'll see some drawings before too long.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

Also - I happened to notice this morning that there was a team of orange-clad contractors cutting back vegetation on the disused platform at Cardiff Bay, and surveyors setting up a drilling rig part-way up Lloyd George Avenue - I presume this is all connected to upgrading the Bay line to double track. (EDIT - having now seen Envoy's WalesOnline article, the drilling rig was exactly where Butetown station will be, so I guess it relates to that).

 

[59CosG95]

An infrastructure update on Flickr:
https://flic.kr/p/2obspiJ - lots of TTCs up to the south of Mountain Ash.

 

[sefyllian]

WG plans/aspirations a few years back had trams at ground level in the Car Park at the back of Central, before continuing through the new Brewery development and onto Grangetown.

I think it’s safe to bet that the new platforms will be street level and not elevated.

Oh, that suggests the new platforms will be a terminus.

I’d assumed the plan would involve something like reinstating the old Riverside platforms, and so would include a westward connection to the current lines. I guess that wouldn’t be possible if the platforms are street level.

Would a westward connection be beneficial / possible? I’d have thought a Radyr–Cardiff Bay via the City Line service would be more useful than just a Central–Bay shuttle.

 

[CardiffKid]

BTW the reason for just this but is because Cardiff Council bid for the money. The Welsh Government had no say and was not allowed to bid for anything. So much for respecting devolved government

Cardiff’s Council Leader says it’s match funded by the Welsh Govt (£100m in total) so clearly they did have knowledge of bids and a some level of say in it

https://twitter.com/huwthomas_wales/status/1616019563757404161?s=46&t=13qj7pbVB_rFrFTuiozX6Q

Also this tweet mentions two new Cardiff Central platforms (no indication of the hight however)

https://twitter.com/mrmikegriffiths/status/1616011886859882499?s=46&t=13qj7pbVB_rFrFTuiozX6Q

 

[CapitalStar378]

Apparently 50 million pounds has been given to the bid to create the rail link between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Bay. Not seen any plans, drawings etc showing a route but some positive news for development of rail in the capital. BBC article linked with the news.
BBC News - Levelling Up: £50m for new Cardiff rail line announced

Levelling up: Projects across Wales share £208m in funding

There is also money for an engineering campus and a Llandudno Junction to Betws y Coed bike route.

www.bbc.co.uk

So the big question is, will this speed up the implementation? I was expecting this to be an aspiration for a decade or so. Fingers crossed that proper planning can start now as well as onwards to Newport Road.

Of course, the line that's most needed is through Plasdwr, some £500m will be needed for this from somewhere!

 

[Mollman]

Oh, that suggests the new platforms will be a terminus.

I’d assumed the plan would involve something like reinstating the old Riverside platforms, and so would include a westward connection to the current lines. I guess that wouldn’t be possible if the platforms are street level.

Would a westward connection be beneficial / possible? I’d have thought a Radyr–Cardiff Bay via the City Line service would be more useful than just a Central–Bay shuttle.

I think this answers your question

WG plans/aspirations a few years back had trams at ground level in the Car Park at the back of Central, before continuing through the new Brewery development and onto Grangetown.

I think it’s safe to bet that the new platforms will be street level and not elevated.

Over to the WG to push through the Cardiff Bay/Docks/Tremorfa line now I guess.

 

[MikePJ]

I’m pretty sure there’s a vehicle ramp at Central that allows access to track level (you can see it on Google Maps). Given that tram-like vehicles can climb steep slopes, I don’t think it’s impossible to have street-level tram tracks linked to the main line.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

That entrance is still there, although I'm not sure how often it's used these days; it leads to several buildings which I think are used by Network Rail. However, when it gets to what is nearly platform level, it's towards the end of platform eight, so putting a new platform there could well be a bit difficult? I'm looking at it from a laymen's eye, though, so an engineer might say different!

 

[Bob Price]

Agree, looking at the Google Maps it would be logical to put a station into the car park, take a route down the side of Callaghan Square with a station and then a ramp up and round to link to the Bay. Remembering these will be trams, their climbing and turning ability is much greater than a conventional train.

 

[CapitalStar378]

How would a separate platform and line fit in with the Cardiff/RCT/WG aspiration for a line from Beddau via Plasdwr connecting to the Central to Bay line?

Would provision be made to join these at a later date, if that should come to fruition?

 

[MikePJ]

That entrance is still there, although I'm not sure how often it's used these days; it leads to several buildings which I think are used by Network Rail. However, when it gets to what is nearly platform level, it's towards the end of platform eight, so putting a new platform there could well be a bit difficult? I'm looking at it from a laymen's eye, though, so an engineer might say different!

I think you’d still have the tram platforms at street level (in the current car park) but provide a ramped connection up to join the main line at the end of platform 8. That would allow access to the City Line to Radyr, and any future line branching off it.