UK "circle lines"

[flitwickbeds]

The discussion about figure of 8 circuits in the Milton Keynes thread got me curious as to whether it would be possible to create (adjoining) circle lines connecting the major towns and cities of the UK. As an extra challenge, no reversing is allowed, and the circles must connect somewhere in the loop. This is just for fun, so ignore restraints like timetabling, visibility of financial sustainment, which class of train would operate it, etc - as long as the infrastructure exists and there is no reversing, it's allowed!

How about:

Circle 1
London Paddington - London Liverpool Street - Colchester - Ipswich - Ely - Peterborough - Nottingham - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET - WORCESTER SHRUB HILL - OXFORD - Reading - London Paddington

Circle 2
WORCESTER SHRUB HILL - Cheltenham - Bristol Temple Meads - Taunton - Exeter - Salisbury - Basingstoke - Reading West - OXFORD - WORCESTER SHRUB HILL

Circle 3
Cardiff Central - Swansea - Shrewsbury - Chester - Warrington - Wigan - Liverpool Central - Manchester Oxford Road - Sheffield - LEEDS - Doncaster - Sheffield - Derby - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET - Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford - Newport - Cardiff Central

Circle 4
LEEDS - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Lancaster - Preston - Blackburn - LEEDS

I don't think it's possible to connect Glasgow to a circle (though happy to be proven wrong!) and I also don't think south of London can perform a circle either.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think it's possible to connect Glasgow to a circle (though happy to be proven wrong!)

How about Glasgow QS Low Level - Anniesland - Maryhill - Bishopbriggs - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley (back via the Sub) - Falkirk Grahamston - Cumbernauld - Springburn - Glasgow Queen Street Low Level

Is that acceptable?

 

[flitwickbeds]

How about Glasgow QS Low Level - Anniesland - Maryhill - Bishopbriggs - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley (back via the Sub) - Falkirk Grahamston - Cumbernauld - Springburn - Glasgow Queen Street Low Level

Is that acceptable?

I don't think it's possible to get from Springburn back to the QS Low Levels without a reversal at Springburn?

 

[Mag_seven]

I don't think it's possible to get from Springburn back to the QS Low Levels without a reversal at Springburn?

It is possible to get back onto the Maryhill line from Springburn thence back to Glasgow Queen St Low level via Anniesland. Of course since you are going back over a line you have already been over you might not regards that as a genuine circle.

 

[flitwickbeds]

It is possible to get back onto the Maryhill line from Springburn thence back to Glasgow Queen St Low level via Anniesland. Of course since you are going back over a line you have already been over you might not regards that as a genuine circle.

Don't you then end up back at QS facing the wrong way? I don't mind the same track being used (my circle 3 above does similar at Sheffield) but in this example you'd then need a reversal at QS to keep going round the circle?

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think it's possible to get from Springburn back to the QS Low Levels without a reversal at Springburn?

I was trying to recall which route the Queen Street tunnel closure diverts took into the Low Level.

 

[busestrains]

In the South East there are a couple of possible routes:

Lewisham - Swanley - Sittingbourne - Faversham - Margate - Ramsgate - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Strood - Sittingbourne - Faversham - Margate - Ramsgate - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Strood - Maidstone West - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Swanley - Maidstone East - Ashford - Rye - Hastings - Tunbridge Wells - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

There are probably other possible circular routes too.

 

[Ken H]

Leeds-Harrogate-York-Church Fenton- Leeds. Would make a sort of cross leeds line making Cross Gates - Headingley easier.

Blackburn- Clitheroe-Hellifield-Lancaster -Preston -Blackburn

 

[flitwickbeds]

In the South East there are a couple of possible routes:

Lewisham - Swanley - Sittingbourne - Faversham - Margate - Ramsgate - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Strood - Sittingbourne - Faversham - Margate - Ramsgate - Dover - Folkestone - Ashford - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Strood - Maidstone West - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

Lewisham - Swanley - Maidstone East - Ashford - Rye - Hastings - Tunbridge Wells - Tonbridge - Redhill - East Croydon - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Lewisham

There are probably other possible circular routes too.

Part of the requirement was that the circles should connect to each other somewhere to provide interchange. Where else could you go from Lewisham in a circle to connect?

 

[30907]

Part of the requirement was that the circles should connect to each other somewhere to provide interchange. Where else could you go from Lewisham in a circle to connect?

The Lewisham circle can be extended:
as shown to Tonbridge, then Bromley S- Clapham Jn (Windsor lines) - Basingstoke - (Laverstock-) Fareham- Barnham-Clapham Jn (Central)-Lewisham.

There are various circles involving the Dudding Hill, West London and Thameslink routes as well,the northern limits can be Peterborough-Leicester, Nottingham-Burton or East Mids, Retford-Sheffield, or the Soho loop in Birmingham.

And Stalybridge-Stockport OR the Castlefield Curve (bonus points, please?)

PS the original version has to end ECR-CLJ-LEW as there is no direct connection at Peckham Rye. BTW there are 4 routes Lewisham-Rochester and 2 from E Croydon to Peckham Rye; you can add to the permutations by starting at Nunhead.

PPS #3 doesn't actually serve Swansea and has to get through the buffers at Kirkby, which has not been done successfully

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield - Penistone - Barnsley - Sheffield - Grindleford - Stockport - Denton - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Woodlesford - Whitehall Curve - Harrogate - York - Garforth - Leeds - Dewsbury - Huddersfield.

Huddersfield - Brighouse - Hebden Bridge - Blackburn - Preston - Carnforth - Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle - Carstairs - Edinburgh - Newcastle - York - Pontefract Baghill - Sheffield - Derby - Stoke-on-Trent - Crewe - Warrington BQ - Manchester Victoria - Ashton-under-Lyne - Stalybridge - Huddersfield

 

[8A Rail]

The discussion about figure of 8 circuits in the Milton Keynes thread got me curious as to whether it would be possible to create (adjoining) circle lines connecting the major towns and cities of the UK. As an extra challenge, no reversing is allowed, and the circles must connect somewhere in the loop. This is just for fun, so ignore restraints like timetabling, visibility of financial sustainment, which class of train would operate it, etc - as long as the infrastructure exists and there is no reversing, it's allowed!

Circle 3
Cardiff Central - Swansea - Shrewsbury - Chester - Warrington - Wigan - Liverpool Central - Manchester Oxford Road - Sheffield - LEEDS - Doncaster - Sheffield - Derby - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET - Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford - Newport - Cardiff Central

May be I missed a point but how do you connect the section highlighted in red above without reversing please? Go via Southport which means reversing or unless you are referring to the triangle? Wigan to Liverpool via Huyton, you cannot get to Liverpool Central that way as direct line to the Merseyrail system via the Bootle Branch line is not without reversing. I am curious. Cheers.

 

[roadierway77]

I don't think it's possible to connect Glasgow to a circle (though happy to be proven wrong!) and I also don't think south of London can perform a circle either.

You definitely could, you could connect Glasgow to circle 4 by going Edinburgh - Falkirk High - Anniesland - Glasgow Central Low Level - Motherwell - Carlisle

 

[mangyiscute]

Also if you came through Croydon in order to get back to London from the South East, you could go onto the Overground lines via New Cross Gate and then from what I can see you can connect onto the ECML at Finsbury Park via Drayton Park, or the WCML at Willesden Junction

 

[flitwickbeds]

PPS #3 doesn't actually serve Swansea and has to get through the buffers at Kirkby, which has not been done successfully

May be I missed a point but how do you connect the section highlighted in red above without reversing please? Go via Southport which means reversing or unless you are referring to the triangle? Wigan to Liverpool via Huyton, you cannot get to Liverpool Central that way as direct line to the Merseyrail system via the Bootle Branch line is not without reversing. I am curious. Cheers.

Balls, I forgot about the buffers at Kirkby/Merseyrail being self contained!

You definitely could, you could connect Glasgow to circle 4 by going Edinburgh - Falkirk High - Anniesland - Glasgow Central Low Level - Motherwell - Carlisle

Ding ding, correct answer!

 

[Falcon1200]

I was trying to recall which route the Queen Street tunnel closure diverts took into the Low Level.

They ran both ways to avoid reversals and for capacity reasons! IIRC the Edinburgh fasts came in from the west, ie via Anniesland, and departed to the east, ie via Springburn, and the stoppers did the same in reverse, ie in from the east and out via the west.

 

[greatkingrat]

Also if you came through Croydon in order to get back to London from the South East, you could go onto the Overground lines via New Cross Gate and then from what I can see you can connect onto the ECML at Finsbury Park via Drayton Park, or the WCML at Willesden Junction

The Canonbury Curve from the ECML only connects to the NLL, there is no way to get there from the ELL.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is Haymarket ->Carstairs->Motherwell->Cumbernauld->Falkirk Grahamston->Haymarket permitted, together with Haymarket->Cowdenbeath->Haymarket (via Fife Circle)?

Cross platform transfer at Haymarket.

 

[hexagon789]

They ran both ways to avoid reversals and for capacity reasons! IIRC the Edinburgh fasts came in from the west, ie via Anniesland, and departed to the east, ie via Springburn, and the stoppers did the same in reverse, ie in from the east and out via the west.

No, I remembered that. It was the arrangements at Springburn.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I don't think it's possible to connect Glasgow to a circle (though happy to be proven wrong!)

Am I allowed to connect the loops twice?

Queen St Low Level, Hyndland, Anniesland, Maryhill, Cowlairs, Springburn, Bellgrove, Queen St Low Level

Dalmuir, Westerton, Maryhill, Cowlairs, Springburn, Gartcosh, Whifflet, Motherwell, Hamilton Cen & West, Newton, Rurtherglen, Central Low Level, Hyndland, Yoker, Dalmuir

 

[flitwickbeds]

Am I allowed to connect the loops twice?

Queen St Low Level, Hyndland, Anniesland, Maryhill, Cowlairs, Springburn, Bellgrove, Queen St Low Level

Dalmuir, Westerton, Maryhill, Cowlairs, Springburn, Gartcosh, Whifflet, Motherwell, Hamilton Cen & West, Newton, Rurtherglen, Central Low Level, Hyndland, Yoker, Dalmuir

Yes, but these routes don't exactly connect large towns and cities across the UK ☺

 

[miklcct]

Cut out Clapham Junction, electrify the link at Highbury & Islington, then the Overground becomes a true circle.

Any larger circles possible with London in the centre?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yes, but these routes don't exactly connect large towns and cities across the UK ☺

Back to the drawing board then!

 

[PGAT]

London Bridge - East Croydon - Redhill - Tonbridge - Maidstone West - Strood - Gravesend - Dartford - Lewisham and London Bridge again. You also have the option to go via Sidcup, Bexleyheath, Woolwich or Greenwich

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Balls, I forgot about the buffers at Kirkby/Merseyrail being self contained!

I did consider sending one of my 'loops' onto Merseyrail, but as I don't know which direction the stock transfer line connects with the Northern line I wasn't able to make it work.

 

[fandroid]

Portsmouth Harbour - Guildford - Reading- Bristol - Exeter - Salisbury- Southampton- Portsmouth.

A variation on that would be to use much the same loop starting from Waterloo but direct to Reading and bypassing Portsmouth via Havant. If it's possible to cross the tangle of lines between Southern and South Western at Clapham Junction, then that loop could be extended eastwards via Hove and East Croydon. (or maybe using an old Eurostar route to Waterloo)


Maybe the Waterloo ones aren't really circles but the Portsmouth one could be if based instead on Havant.



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Circle 3
Cardiff Central - Swansea - Shrewsbury - Chester - Warrington - Wigan - Liverpool Central - Manchester Oxford Road - Sheffield - LEEDS - Doncaster - Sheffield - Derby - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET - Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford - Newport - Cardiff Central

Is Sheffield - Leeds- Doncaster possible without reversing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2023 ==



Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line provide a continuously running figure of eight with no shared lines or crossovers.

Farringdon-Stratford-Ipswich-Ely- Peterborough- Melton Mowbray- Leicester- Bedford - Farringdon- Wimbledon- Havant- Southampton- Salisbury- Exeter- Bristol- Reading - Farringdon

 

[Ken H]

Is Sheffield - Leeds- Doncaster possible without reversing?

Yes. from Leeds out via the east junction, to the Hambleton junctions then down the ECML to Donny.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Portsmouth Harbour - Guildford - Reading- Bristol - Exeter - Salisbury- Southampton- Portsmouth.

A variation on that would be to use much the same loop starting from Waterloo but direct to Reading and bypassing Portsmouth via Havant. If it's possible to cross the tangle of lines between Southern and South Western at Clapham Junction, then that loop could be extended eastwards via Hove and East Croydon. (or maybe using an old Eurostar route to Waterloo)


Maybe the Waterloo ones aren't really circles but the Portsmouth one could be if based instead on Havant.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2023 ==


Is Sheffield - Leeds- Doncaster possible without reversing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2023 ==

Have we forgotten Thameslink as very useful connector between south of London and the ECML?

Seems to be - North from Sheffield, turn left before Meadowhall up through Chapeltown, keep going through Barnsley and then enter Leeds from the west. Exit Leeds to the east and through South Milford. Turn right shortly after and head south down to Doncaster.

Thameslink is interesting - the puzzle is getting back onto Thameslink North of London somewhere to complete the circle. Tried with the Marston Vale line and the Birmingham to Leicester line but both require a reversal. Needs more exploring whether it's possible via Peterborough or Cambridge.

 

[zwk500]

Cut out Clapham Junction, electrify the link at Highbury & Islington, then the Overground becomes a true circle.

Any larger circles possible with London in the centre?

Without going through central London proper - Stratford Int'l - Ebbsfleet - Strood - Paddock Wood - Redhill - East Croydon - Clapham Jn - Kensington Olympia - Gospel Oak - North London Incline - Stratford Int'l.
Using crossrail: Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Ely - Peterborough - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - Nuneaton - Tyseley - Leamington - Oxford - Didcot - Reading - Paddington - Liverpool Street

Thameslink is interesting - the puzzle is getting back onto Thameslink North of London somewhere to complete the circle. Tried with the Marston Vale line and the Birmingham to Leicester line but both require a reversal. Needs more exploring whether it's possible via Peterborough or Cambridge.

Blackfriars - Finsbury Park - Hitchin - Cambridge - Peterborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham New Street - Soho lines - Aston - Stechford - Rugby - MK - Wembley Central - Acton Canal Wharf - Kew Jns - Barnes - Clapham Jn - Loughborough Jns - Blackfriars.

 

[M&NEJ]

Blackburn- Clitheroe-Hellifield-Lancaster -Preston -Blackburn

Wouldn't that make a nice figure of 8 with:-
Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Blackburn ?