UK "circle lines"

[duncanp]

Re Circle 1 - Nottingham to Birmingham requires a reversal at Derby.

 

[zwk500]

Re Circle 1 - Nottingham to Birmingham requires a reversal at Derby.

Not if you go via Castle Donnington.

 

[Bevan Price]

The discussion about figure of 8 circuits in the Milton Keynes thread got me curious as to whether it would be possible to create (adjoining) circle lines connecting the major towns and cities of the UK. As an extra challenge, no reversing is allowed, and the circles must connect somewhere in the loop. This is just for fun, so ignore restraints like timetabling, visibility of financial sustainment, which class of train would operate it, etc - as long as the infrastructure exists and there is no reversing, it's allowed!

How about:


Circle 4
LEEDS - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Lancaster - Preston - Blackburn - LEEDS

I don't think it's possible to connect Glasgow to a circle (though happy to be proven wrong!) and I also don't think south of London can perform a circle either.

Circle 4 can be extended to
LEICESTER - Sheffield - Leeds - Edinburgh - Carlisle - Stafford - Birmingham New St. - Nuneaton - LEICESTER.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Without going through central London proper - Stratford Int'l - Ebbsfleet - Strood - Paddock Wood - Redhill - East Croydon - Clapham Jn - Kensington Olympia - Gospel Oak - North London Incline - Stratford Int'l.
Using crossrail: Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Ely - Peterborough - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - Nuneaton - Tyseley - Leamington - Oxford - Didcot - Reading - Paddington - Liverpool Street

Blackfriars - Finsbury Park - Hitchin - Cambridge - Peterborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham New Street - Soho lines - Aston - Stechford - Rugby - MK - Wembley Central - Acton Canal Wharf - Kew Jns - Barnes - Clapham Jn - Loughborough Jns - Blackfriars.

Think you might have cracked it!

 

[zwk500]

Think you might have cracked it!

You can make them smaller or larger as you wished, I used to try and find odd loops lime that for a living.

 

[8A Rail]

Balls, I forgot about the buffers at Kirkby/Merseyrail being self contained!

But you are able to change from one train to another on the same platform by walking pass the buffers. However, it could change in the Spring time when Headbolt Lane Station opens.

 

[YorksLad12]

Seems to be - North from Sheffield, turn left before Meadowhall up through Chapeltown, keep going through Barnsley and then enter Leeds from the west. Exit Leeds to the east and through South Milford. Turn right shortly after and head south down to Doncaster.

Or, from Sheffield via Meadowhall, Barnsley, Penistone, Huddersfield, Brighouse, Bradford to Leeds; then as you describe.

If you wanted to do an actual figure-of-eight, take my route to Leeds; out the other side and up to York; across to Harrogate; back to Leeds via Horsforth; through Leeds again, but straight on at Micklefield this time; down to Doncaster via Hambleton; out the other side to Mexborough and Swinton; via Rotherham Masboro' onto the old road to the curve at Catcliffe, so you enter Sheffield from the south and keep going north in a never-ending loop...!

 

[xotGD]

Newcastle - Carlisle - Edinburgh - Berwick - Newcastle - Sunderland - Darlo - Durham - Newcastle

Using the bridges over the Tyne to avoid any reversals at The Toon.

Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester (Vic, Oxford Road, Pic) - Stockport - Sheffield - Doncaster - Leeds (not via Wakefield)

 

[zwk500]

Am I right that the smallest circular route that passes through more than one station is Birmingham New Street - Aston - Perry Barr - Soho Jns? Incidentally 3/4 of the line is an almost perfect geometrical circle as well. Or would the Sub in Edinburgh just beat it?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Am I right that the smallest circular route that passes through more than one station is Birmingham New Street - Aston - Perry Barr - Soho Jns? Incidentally 3/4 of the line is an almost perfect geometrical circle as well. Or would the Sub in Edinburgh just beat it?

Glasgow Subway? (Also 'interchanges' at Partick.)

How does the Soho circle compare distance-wise with the Camp Hill circle in Birmingham?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or, from Sheffield via Meadowhall, Barnsley, Penistone, Huddersfield, Brighouse, Bradford to Leeds; then as you describe.

Bradford Interchange means you have to reverse, you'd have to go via Dewsbury instead.

 

[Falcon1200]

No, I remembered that. It was the arrangements at Springburn.

The trains ran direct on and off the E&G via the (normally freight only) Springburn/Cowlairs West Jc connection. IIRC the stoppers called at Springburn but the expresses did not!

 

[JKF]

There must be a Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds route possible using Ordsall, Hope Valley, Hambleton Jn? Someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps, I suspect it might get a bit complicated in the Doncaster area.

 

[zwk500]

Glasgow Subway? (Also 'interchanges' at Partick.)

Glasgow subway's cheating

How does the Soho circle compare distance-wise with the Camp Hill circle in Birmingham?

Not sure. they look close as Camp Hill is a more squished shape but I can't quite bring myself to go through the PDF appendix to check it out.

 

[Ken H]

There must be a Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds route possible using Ordsall, Hope Valley, Hambleton Jn? Someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps, I suspect it might get a bit complicated in the Doncaster area.

Leeds - Man vic not via Bradford then Stockport, Hope Valley, Sheffield, Donny, Hambleton Jct and into Leeds the other end.

 

[mangyiscute]

There must be a Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds route possible using Ordsall, Hope Valley, Hambleton Jn? Someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps, I suspect it might get a bit complicated in the Doncaster area.

From what I can tell, you can do that route by going through Leeds, join the ECML near Selby and then go through Doncaster, or go via Wakefield Kirkgate not Leeds and then through Doncaster, or via Moorthorpe.
Or perhaps the most interesting route would be to go via Todmorden, and then through Brighouse to Huddersfield and then because you approach Huddersfield from the east, you can take the line via Penistone and Barnsley to Sheffield

 

[YorksLad12]

Bradford Interchange means you have to reverse, you'd have to go via Dewsbury instead.

Oh... fudge. How could I forget that? There isn't even an avoiding line now.

There must be a Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds route possible using Ordsall, Hope Valley, Hambleton Jn? Someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps, I suspect it might get a bit complicated in the Doncaster area.

As others have said, quite easy to come in on one side of Leeds and Doncaster and head out of the other. Sheffield is a bit tougher. Now... doing a circular route from a major station without passing through another major station would be interesting...

 

[CrossNorthPr]

There's serious potential to create a GM/Lancashire Orbital. Whether the timetabling stacks up would still need to be worked out.

It does seem practical though to have a Manchester Victoria-Rochdale-Burnley-Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester Victoria Orbital.

It all falls within the commuter belt, and such a line would simplify services to those locations out of Manchester. It can be quite confusing for passengers at the moment!

 

[xotGD]

There must be a Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds route possible using Ordsall, Hope Valley, Hambleton Jn? Someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps, I suspect it might get a bit complicated in the Doncaster area.

There is. I posted it earlier in #38

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's serious potential to create a GM/Lancashire Orbital. Whether the timetabling stacks up would still need to be worked out.

It does seem practical though to have a Manchester Victoria-Rochdale-Burnley-Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester Victoria Orbital.

It all falls within the commuter belt, and such a line would simplify services to those locations out of Manchester. It can be quite confusing for passengers at the moment!

The OP did mention that this thread was not for serious proposals, but actual "circular" services are a nightmare to run due to the lack of recovery time in the event of disruption. There's a good reason the Circle Line on LU is operated the way it is.

Circular services look neat on a diagrammatic map, but actually operating them reliably is another thing altogether.

 

[CrossNorthPr]

The OP did mention that this thread was not for serious proposals, but actual "circular" services are a nightmare to run due to the lack of recovery time in the event of disruption. There's a good reason the Circle Line on LU is operated the way it is.

Circular services look neat on a diagrammatic map, but actually operating them reliably is another thing altogether.

Yes you can’t run a continuous circle line. It will always end up as more of a “spiral” but the concept of a circular route still applies!

 

[xotGD]

Derby - Toton - Sheffield - Old Road - Derby

Figure of eight.

 

[zwk500]

Derby - Toton - Sheffield - Old Road - Derby

Figure of eight.

Perhaps needing to be split into a separate thread, but you can also do a Figure of 8 centred on New Street using the Soho and Camp Hill lines, or a slightly larger one centred on Newcastle running Berwick-Edinburgh-Carstairs-Carisle - Newcastle - Sunderland - (Darlington, optional) - Durham - Newcastle.
There is also a potential figure of 8 using both Crossrail and Thameslink centred on Farringdon, but there are so many possible variations I can't provide a 'neatest' one yet.

 

[Jonny]

If you use the direct route from Edinburgh to Carlisle via Carstairs, there are a few loops you can make:
Edinburrgh - Carlisle- Hexham - Newcastle -Edinburgh.
Replace Hexham with Settle, Leeds, York and you get
Edinburrgh - Carlisle- Settle-Leeds-York- Newcastle -Edinburgh.
This can be expanded out further, using Preston and Manchester (various options)
Edinburrgh - Carlisle- Preston - Manchester -Leeds - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh.
Further permutations exist, e.g. Sheffield, Stoke-Derby direct line, etc
Another one would be
Edinburrgh - Carlisle- Preston - Birmingham - Derby - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh.
If you could use the route between Finsbury Park and Camden road you can expand that out even more to
Edinburrgh - Carlisle- Preston - WCML South - Queen's Park (London) - Finsbury Park - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh.

Other variations of the above may be available by using non-conventional but very much extant routes across Birmingham, and then the West Country.

Ironically, Wales is pretty much a non-starter due to needing to reverse at Crewe or Wolverhampton (unless figures of eight count).

Also Newcastle-Darlington-Eaglescliffe(edit oops!)-Hartlepool-Newcastle for a bonus (but that one does not expand out).

 

[zwk500]

Ironically, Wales is pretty much a non-starter due to needing to reverse at Crewe or Wolverhampton (unless figures of eight count).

There are no true curves entirely within Wales, although you can make circles that cross into England with the Morlais curve off the Heart of Wales (Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate - Craven Arms - Sugar Load - Morlais - Port Talbot - Gloucester - Birmingham - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury avoiding curve) or the Maindee Curve near Newport.

 

[CR165022]

One that I don't think has been mentioned is Reading to Reading via Oxford and the Chiltern mainline. It would go from reading, down onto the greenford branch, and take the route previously used by the Chiltern parliamentary up to South Ruislip, then continue along the CML all the way to Oxford, where it would then continue onto Reading again. alternatively it could go a little further and go down to Acton and use the Acton Wells Junction to get onto the CML.

 

[JohnRegular]

You can have have a lovely tour of central southern England: Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Westbury North to East curve - Newbury - Reading West - South to West curve onto GWML and back to Swindon.

 

[zwk500]

I might have missed some things, but as we're now into grand days out, the "circle" line that AFAICS covers the most extreme points of the network without running over any section twice or reversing is as follows:

SE: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA - Nunhead - Blackheath - Woolwich - Dartford - Gillingham - Margate - Deal - Folkestone - Tonbridge - Chislehurst - London Bridge - THAMESLINK CORE
SW: THAMESLINK CORE - West Hampstead - Dudding Hill Line - Kew Jns - Staines - Reading - Basingstoke - Salisbury - EXETER
WEST: EXETER - Bristol - Cardiff - Port Talbot - Briton Ferry - Morlais Jns - Heart of Wales line - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Warrington BQ - Preston - Carnforth - Barrow - CARLISLE
SCOTLAND: CARLISLE - GSW - Ayr - Paisley Gilmour Street - City Union Line - Springburn - Lenzie - Greenhill Jns - Stirling - Alloa - Dunfermline City - Glenrothes with Thronton - Dalgety Bay - Edinburgh Waverly - BERWICK
EAST: BERWICK: Newcastle - Sunderland - Northallerton - York - Doncaster - Lincoln - Peterborough - Ely - Ipswich - Stratford - Dalston Kingsland - Gospel Oak - Willesden Jn HL - KENSINGTON OLYMPIA.

 

[PGAT]

I might have missed some things, but as we're now into grand days out, the "circle" line that AFAICS covers the most extreme points of the network without running over any section twice or reversing is as follows:

SE: KENSINGTON OLYMPIA - Nunhead - Blackheath - Woolwich - Dartford - Gillingham - Margate - Deal - Folkestone - Tonbridge - Chislehurst - London Bridge - THAMESLINK CORE
SW: THAMESLINK CORE - West Hampstead - Dudding Hill Line - Kew Jns - Staines - Reading - Basingstoke - Salisbury - EXETER
WEST: EXETER - Bristol - Cardiff - Port Talbot - Briton Ferry - Morlais Jns - Heart of Wales line - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Warrington BQ - Preston - Carnforth - Barrow - CARLISLE
SCOTLAND: CARLISLE - GSW - Ayr - Paisley Gilmour Street - City Union Line - Springburn - Lenzie - Greenhill Jns - Stirling - Alloa - Dunfermline City - Glenrothes with Thronton - Dalgety Bay - Edinburgh Waverly - BERWICK
EAST: BERWICK: Newcastle - Sunderland - Northallerton - York - Doncaster - Lincoln - Peterborough - Ely - Ipswich - Stratford - Dalston Kingsland - Gospel Oak - Willesden Jn HL - KENSINGTON OLYMPIA.

Imagine if you just wanted to get a train to Willesden Junction

 

[zwk500]

Imagine if you just wanted to get a train to Willesden Junction

Tbf if you ran the circle anti-clockwise it'd be alright.