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I think it's quite questionable if we even need independent retailers on a system that's been underwritten by the tax payer we definitely shouldn't be worrying about their costs the extent that its defining the ticketing system.
I didn't argue that the reason for dropping ToD should have any relation to the costs bourne by independent retailers. Indeed, they are a tiny drop in the ocean - remember that all the publicly owned TOCs doing their own retail are paying for this just like external retailers are.
Who is paying for the gatelines and the TVMs? Who is paying for the magstripe ticket stock? Who is maintaining the printing equipment?
Who pays for all of this? The taxpayer, via the train operating companies which are paid to run their operation by DfT using public funds.
Regardless of whether you think third-party retailers should exist or not (let's set aside the fact that 81% of TOCs rely on independent retailers to power their websites and apps), you cannot defend the continued existence of this nonsense in 2022 2023 (!) when there's a viable alternative which massively reduces costs (E-Tickets displayed on a smart device) for 99% of customers and PRT for everyone else.
You say that but other fare increases happen, and people just have to lump it, even though in many cases they may think they are "not acceptable".
The question might be a little more nuanced about regulated fares across London, but even there such fares saw big increases when the London fare structure was changed in 2010.
I'm not at all advocating it. Just recognising that it can happen.
Frankly, if they're not going to keep up with the rest of the national rail industry, perhaps cross-London marked tickets and other integrated products like travelcards should simply be dropped from the fares data and withdrawn from retail. Customers can use a contactless card or Oyster card to travel and TfL can do what they want in their own little bubble. Retailers can stop wasting money on ToD.
Then I’d also expect “national rail” to treat TfL seriously, and engage properly with their concerns instead of replicating the ITSO vs Oyster battles of years ago.
Pulling inter availability between networks is a retrograde step that should simply not be contemplated. It has too many implications for both fares and consumer rights, and adds complications to the passenger experience that should be being removed, not added to. And that’s without thinking about the edge cases associated with the former Metropolitan Railway network.
As I'm sure you're aware ITSO already can have travelcards loaded to it, and is compatible with a large amount of flows. Some TOCs allow users to load these from their phone, and so there already is an option if you want to avoid CCST. However I would say I don't think ITSO is the solution, there are numerous issues with how it would be distributed on such a large scale.
What are the issues beyond every gateline and all the relevant staff needing an ITSO card reader rather than a Aztec code one plus maybe a separate reader to load tickets i.e. the equivalent of ToD? The latter would take seconds just presenting the card unlike ToD requiring entering the code and presenting the payment card.
I am aware there are cases where more than one card would be required because at the point of entry the system can not know the point of exit and which one of multiple tickets valid at the point of entry to apply.
Personally I'm surprised ITSO on Mobile hasn't received more support. London Underground gates can already read from the NFC chip, so presumably support would only require a software update, and although currently only supported on Android were a large name such as TfL or the DfT to get behind it I'm sure Apple would add support, so as not to fall behind the competition.
Apple have been the Problem with ITSO on Mobile with the only trials so far being Android only. Although in their defence Apple seem much more willing to play now.
These are facts I know from various industry group meetings that I attend just in case anyone is interested.
The fact of the matter is that Apple have dragged their heels on host-card emulation for years. I believe they're starting to be less obstinate about this now (and supporting it in France?), but against this backdrop you cannot blame the rail industry for going with a barcode-based approach instead. ITSO has so many drawbacks without HCE (requiring the customer to own and keep ahold of a physical card, load the products etc) - and even with it I'm not convinced it won't be flaky and result in a worse UX than barcode-based ticketing.
Frankly, if they're not going to keep up with the rest of the national rail industry, perhaps cross-London marked tickets and other integrated products like travelcards should simply be dropped from the fares data and withdrawn from retail. Customers can use a contactless card or Oyster card to travel and TfL can do what they want in their own little bubble. Retailers can stop wasting money on ToD.
You say that but other fare increases happen, and people just have to lump it, even though in many cases they may think they are "not acceptable".
The question might be a little more nuanced about regulated fares across London, but even there such fares saw big increases when the London fare structure was changed in 2010.
I'm not at all advocating it. Just recognising that it can happen.
See my post 68 above. Made up of two National Rail tickets and two cross-London tickets I would not travel at all, just stay local to home. The would not just be rail but accommodation, pubs / cafes / restaurants, museums and similar etc.
What are the issues beyond every gateline and all the relevant staff needing an ITSO card reader rather than a Aztec code one plus maybe a separate reader to load tickets
Customers overwhelmingly don't want the hassle of this, irrespective of what proponents of smart cards/ITSO believe. There's a reason it's mostly only used for seasons at present.
Customers already have a phone. They understand what's going on when they display a barcode which gets scanned. It's obvious as to which ticket they're presenting. And, most phones built in the last few decades are capable of displaying an Aztec barcode on their screen.
HCE is the only viable way to do this if you're insisting on NFC/ITSO and that still has downsides over barcode based ticketing. You'll need to make it super super obvious which ticket is currently selected, the customer won't be able to print their ticket as a backup so they'll be screwed if they run out of battery. Customers will need to hand over their device for on-train checks. You'll need to invest in "smart" paper ticket stock like they use on the Glasgow subway - which can't be recycled and has to go to landfill - if you're dropping magstripe (no CCST) and barcode support (no PRT).
What are the issues beyond every gateline and all the relevant staff needing an ITSO card reader rather than a Aztec code one plus maybe a separate reader to load tickets i.e. the equivalent of ToD? The latter would take seconds just presenting the card unlike ToD requiring entering the code and presenting the payment card.
As mentioned below, everyone needs a smartcard. How are you proposing these are manufactured, I doubt current infrastructure supports it, and that’s assuming the fragmented system joins together so you only need one. Do we really want to be giving out millions of plastic cards which will end up in landfill most likely? The average person will throw it away after their trip since they’re free. And remember you need to get one, so have to plan in advance if you don’t have one to get it delivered.
I currently have to carry 2 smart cards and an Oyster card in my wallet, which is more cards than I have bank cards. Then I have to remember my railcard, so that’s 4 cards in my already stretched wallet the railway is taking up. It really isn’t simpler to have it on a card. Plus I prefer not to even carry a wallet, and a smart card is just another thing to forget.
Right now when I’m travelling I’m perfectly able to buy tickets on a smartcard for my journey, but I choose e tickets because a smartcard is another thing to forget and to carry around. I always have my phone with me and it is far simpler.
No more obvious than a barcode ticket? If they pick the wrong ticket it just rejects at the barrier, exactly the same as if I pick the wrong barcode ticket and scan it.
The vast, vast majority of people who ‘run out of charge’ are actually attempting to avoid paying. I don’t think I know anyone who prints out backup copies of tickets, or who’s actually run out of charge, but I do know many who have dropped tickets. There has to be a point when, with charging available on many trains and at stations, people have to take responsibility and make sure they have enough charge.
All you need is a device with a contactless symbol capable of reading the tickets, people are very used to holding their device up to these symbols for purchases etc.
As mentioned below, everyone needs a smartcard. How are you proposing these are manufactured, I doubt current infrastructure supports it, and that’s assuming the fragmented system joins together so you only need one. Do we really want to be giving out millions of plastic cards which will end up in landfill most likely? The average person will throw it away after their trip since they’re free. And remember you need to get one, so have to plan in advance if you don’t have one to get it delivered.
I currently have to carry 2 smart cards and an Oyster card in my wallet, which is more cards than I have bank cards. Then I have to remember my railcard, so that’s 4 cards in my already stretched wallet the railway is taking up. It really isn’t simpler to have it on a card. Plus I prefer not to even carry a wallet, and a smart card is just another thing to forget.
The bus companies do, or at least, did hand out ITSO cards like sweets - I've got 2 Go-Ahead and a Stagecoach. The two Go-Ahead were issued 2012 and 2015. I was surprised the first would not work in another area. For ITSO to be countrywide that has to be resolved if not already done. The Stagecoach was 2018. I might have been asked if I already had a card but didn't have them with me not expecting the default to be card instead of paper as 5 years before. My key point here is neither cost or supply seems an issue.
I fully agree though cards should not be constantly handed out. Booking offices and TVM's ought to charge even if only 50p.
As a one-off a paper receipt also issued. Ongoing the expectation would be to link the card to a National Rail ( GBR ) account. This would show the ticket detail. By default stored as a PDF for off-line access but could be printed too. If the card was reused but no linked account again a paper receipt issued. Not ideal but equally no more wasteful than bog-roll tickets, less if smaller as no Aztec code.
You'll need to invest in "smart" paper ticket stock like they use on the Glasgow subway - which can't be recycled and has to go to landfill - if you're dropping magstripe (no CCST) and barcode support (no PRT).
If single use existed at all it has to be the last resort. Maybe the design can be refined to be at least partly recyclable. Magstripe CCST has to go to eliminate the outdated and expensive gateline readers.
Customers overwhelmingly don't want the hassle of this, irrespective of what proponents of smart cards/ITSO believe. There's a reason it's mostly only used for seasons at present.
Customers already have a phone. They understand what's going on when they display a barcode which gets scanned. It's obvious as to which ticket they're presenting. And, most phones built in the last few decades are capable of displaying an Aztec barcode on their screen.
HCE is the only viable way to do this if you're insisting on NFC/ITSO and that still has downsides over barcode based ticketing. You'll need to make it super super obvious which ticket is currently selected, the customer won't be able to print their ticket as a backup so they'll be screwed if they run out of battery. Customers will need to hand over their device for on-train checks.
If some want the ITSO embedded in their phone fine so long to the system it appears no different from a standalone card but a standalone card must exist too.
As to selecting the ticket as a proportion how many overall will have more than one valid ticket on their card?
If at the end of the day the system simply marked the cheapest ticket as used I wonder how many errors there would be? E.g. you hold a 10 journey anytime ticket then add a off-peak day return and travel on Saturday the off-peak day return is marked as used. Simplified of course by all single journey tickets when if valid an off-peak is used and otherwise a peak - but this is straying away from the core discussion. As stated before I realise there will be situations were multiple cards are required.
I currently have to carry 2 smart cards and an Oyster card in my wallet, which is more cards than I have bank cards. Then I have to remember my railcard, so that’s 4 cards in my already stretched wallet the railway is taking up. It really isn’t simpler to have it on a card. Plus I prefer not to even carry a wallet, and a smart card is just another thing to forget.
Right now when I’m travelling I’m perfectly able to buy tickets on a smartcard for my journey, but I choose e tickets because a smartcard is another thing to forget and to carry around. I always have my phone with me and it is far simpler.
If you have a smartcard Oyster ought not to be needed as well so one less. If you needed two ticket cards an issue but if just one and assuming no 'interference' issue ( using the term very loosely but I can't think of a better one ) but there ought not to be if the card can be embedded in the phone trap the card between the back of phone and the case it is in so effectively just as if embedded but independently quickly and easily replaceable.
Regardless of if in the phone or a separate card the issue of a discharged phone battery and those attempting to avoid payment is eliminated. If a system issue where a ticket has been bought but not showing on the card and at a later date can be proved the second ticket cost would be refunded. Each card like a bank card would have the number on it too so rail staff could look at the linked history and see if there should be a valid ticket.
As mentioned below, everyone needs a smartcard. How are you proposing these are manufactured, I doubt current infrastructure supports it, and that’s assuming the fragmented system joins together so you only need one. Do we really want to be giving out millions of plastic cards which will end up in landfill most likely? The average person will throw it away after their trip since they’re free. And remember you need to get one, so have to plan in advance if you don’t have one to get it delivered.
Why wouldn’t I? I often do not travel enough in the London Zones to warrant a Travelcard, but too much for a simple station-Zone ticket. I can’t use contactless as I need the railcard discount.
If you needed two ticket cards an issue but if just one and assuming no 'interference' issue ( using the term very loosely but I can't think of a better one ) but there ought not to be if the card can be embedded in the phone trap the card between the back of phone and the case it is in so effectively just as if embedded but independently quickly and easily replaceable.
I have to carry two cards as I have a GWR one for PAYG in the Bristol Area, and a C2C one as my local station’s ticket offfice is usually not open, and C2C allows loading tickets to a smartcard from phones. I cannot tap both cards as when I had a ticket it would start/end a PAYG journey assuming I’m travelling home.
in the phone trap the card between the back of phone and the case it is in so effectively just as if embedded but independently quickly and easily replaceable.
Having attempted to do this with a library card for uni (RFID card, very similar tech) for the past year, it works okay at best. Apple Pay does interfere with it and it doesn’t work 100% of the time. Regardless I don’t think many people will buy a phone case just so they can fit the card in.
We’re moving towards an age where cards are a thing of the past, the rail industry shouldn’t be bringing in cards just as they are dying.
It's quite frustrating that ITSO-on-mobile (specifically looking at you, Apple) does not have any widespread support. I'd prefer the ease/speed of tapping my phone against an ITSO reader vs the QR code scanner, which seems to have worse reliability than the magnetic tickets.
Corrected that for you. Only a technicality but they all can hold the tickets if only the issuers would all work together as was originally intended by the creation of a standard.
Corrected that for you. Only a technicality but they all can hold the tickets if only the issuers would all work together as was originally intended by the creation of a standard.
With Keygo, yes there is no ticket, but I can see on a app it adds a "transient ticket" to ITSO card when you tap-in, so was wondering why overground inspectors could not check for that, like they can check an oyster has tapped in, so that keygo can be supported on the overground.
Ive also had one occasion where I received an email (following the card being checked onboard) that I had an incomplete Key go journey starting at Needham Market- although I was never charged anything for it.
It kind of implies that the system is universal and just hasn't been introduced for cross TOC travel at least in the SE. Presumably this is because there are issues still to be overcome.
The system is set up so that taps are registered across the National Rail network (where smartcard facilities are in place), and keyGo requires you to complete all journeys on your smartcard, whether inside or outside the keyGo area. This is so that if you have a ticket to a keyGo boundary and continue your journey into the keyGo area, you can be charged appropriately.
In my experience, GTR on-board staff use the Rambus (now Ecebs) Smart Ticket Checker to validate ITSO tickets. This also comes with the additional point that they don't often actually validate the contents of the ticket in terms of ticketing restrictions and the like. I've seen some staff using a tablet and custom Android app (same as the RPIs use to issue penalty fares/TIRs).
These also don't seem to provide detailed ticketing info, but they can also read the card info (seemingly) via the smartcard number as I had one member of staff scan the barcode on the back of my Key to allow me through the gateline.
Changeover from Key to Paper season is free-of-charge and can be done at any GTR ticket office (though I've only had luck at Brighton, personally, with my 3 closest stations wanting nothing to do with it).
This seems problematic, especially for example when GWR ran along the West Coastway, and KeyGo was accepted on there, might be similar still round Redhill way. Given they're using standard ticket types, the only quirk is issuing them after travel instead of before, surely they should be reported in Lennon (the system where sales are reported to RDG) and handled just like pre-paid tickets, so revenue sharing and the like would work like normal
I believe these are local arrangements with GWR (where revenue is shared for those particular situations).
You can use keyGo to Dorking Deepdene, but it's not actually possible to start or end your journey there, instead you have to then walk to Dorking to continue/end your journey.
I believe these are local arrangements with GWR (where revenue is shared for those particular situations).
You can use keyGo to Dorking Deepdene, but it's not actually possible to start or end your journey there, instead you have to then walk to Dorking to continue/end your journey.
The system is set up so that taps are registered across the National Rail network (where smartcard facilities are in place), and keyGo requires you to complete all journeys on your smartcard, whether inside or outside the keyGo area. This is so that if you have a ticket to a keyGo boundary and continue your journey into the keyGo area, you can be charged appropriately.
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying here. There isn't a requirement to use KeyGo at the exclusion of other methods of ticketing, and the requirement to touch in outside the KeyGo area when holding another ticket can only be the case when that other ticket is held on the same Key card and covers only part of the journey being made (up to the KeyGo area boundary).
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying here. There isn't a requirement to use KeyGo at the exclusion of other methods of ticketing, and the requirement to touch in outside the KeyGo area when holding another ticket can only be the case when that other ticket is held on the same Key card and covers only part of the journey being made (up to the KeyGo area boundary).
The moment you add keyGo to a Key smartcard, the requirement to touch in and out for all journeys applies, even if you have another ticket on the smartcard.
3. Using keyGo
3.1 You must always touch “in” and touch “out” with your Key Smartcard by placing it flat on a yellow card reader or Oyster reader at the ticket gate or free standing validator (a “Validator”) at the station where you start and finish your rail Journey.
In you scenario, if a ticket on the smartcard covers part of the journey and another part is covered by keyGo, you are bound by this condition to always touch in and out.
If the ticket covers the whole journey, you may not be bound by that as you are technically not using keyGo (though that might be a debatable point, since the calculations for keyGo are still made in the background and it is just found that no additional charge is needed).
It is worth noting that the GTR system is smart enough to allow you to touch in or out outside the keyGo area and transit through it in addition to another ticket on the Key. For example, if your Key has STP to Gillingham, you could use keyGo between Brighton and STP and it would then automatically switch to the prepurchased ticket for the leg from STP to Gillingham. The provision requires that there are smartcard readers at your outside-keyGo station, but I have had all taps correctly recorded from gatelines at non-GTR, outside-keyGo validators.
Even in these cases, it is explicitly mentioned that not touching in and out when you hold another valid ticket on your Key will result in an incomplete journey charge:
9.1.1 Season Tickets and Day Tickets
Where a journey is made that is covered by the ticket, no charge will be made under keyGo. If you travel outside of the validity of the ticket, then the extended part of your journey will be charged to your keyGo account.
[...]
9.2 If you do not tap in and out on your journeys, you may be charged an Incomplete Journey Charge as we do not know if you have travelled within the validity of your pre-purchased ticket.
This can, of course, be rectified online (max 3 times in a 28 day period) or by calling GTR.
The keyGo system does also auto-fill journeys based on season and day tickets where no tap has been detected. When I bought a season from Burgess Hill to Gatwick for my commute, it would often auto-fill each point due to various card reader faults even though I hadn't tapped. Obviously, it could auto-fill these incorrectly, but it seems to do an ok job even when also breaking a journey.
I do find it interesting that they do not "allow" keyGo and flexi-seasons to be used at the same time, but do make appropriate provisions for it in the terms and they can be bought at a TVM as expected.
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I could check this, but I'm not sure of any way to actually check the ticket code for an ITSO ticket. I've got a Z1-6 Travelcard on my Key at the moment and all I can see is that the route is 789 (Thameslink only), sadly. It would be nice to validate that this is the case.
I could check this, but I'm not sure of any way to actually check the ticket code for an ITSO ticket. I've got a Z1-6 Travelcard on my Key at the moment and all I can see is that the route is 789 (Thameslink only), sadly. It would be nice to validate that this is the case.
Checking’s easy - pop to a TVM and try selecting a single/return onto a smartcard, noting the “Smart” prefix before every ticket. This becomes a bit more clear when looking at Brighton to Ashford Intl, where route ANY PERMITTED doesn’t have smart fares because it’s priced by Southeastern (the normal fares can just be fulfilled to ITSO), whilst route VIA EDENB/POLEG does have smart fares because it’s priced by Southern (GTR).
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