Key Smartcard and ticket acceptance on TfL

[Hadders]

Many long distance cross London travellers already don't use through tickets because of the way fares are priced. When the quota availability on the long distance train dictates the cost of the local connection into London, it often isn't worth having a through ticket, and through advances have not been priced as competitively for the last five years or so.

What about non-advance tickets. Suspect their sales are significant.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think anyone with any knowledge of the problem has ever suggested Travelcards on eTickets but TfL are holding up the elimination of 70s technology on the mainline for many TOCs.

You can claim they're holding it up because you personally don't like them, same as Haywain, but they can claim they never asked for the change and don't need to put time and money into doing what you want. Why do you think they should do what you want other than because you want it?

I don't see why anyone feels entitled to tell TfL how to spend their strictly limited resources when they've already got a much better solution for themselves and have done for almost 20 years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2022 ==

What about non-advance tickets. Suspect their sales are significant.

The most likely outcome is going to be that the tickets lose their cross-London transfer and people will have to pay twice.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You can claim they're holding it up because you personally don't like them, same as Haywain, but they can claim they never asked for the change and don't need to put time and money into doing what you want. Why do you think they should do what you want other than because you want it?

I don't see why anyone feels entitled to tell TfL how to spend their strictly limited resources when they've already got a much better solution for themselves and have done for almost 20 years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2022 ==


The most likely outcome is going to be that the tickets lose their cross-London transfer and people will have to pay twice.

Well it's not really me or my former colleague is it? It's the rail industry and as TfL have now appointed a barcode implementation Project Manager someone seems to think they should be doing it. So your most likely outcome isn't the one that looks like its going to happen.

 

[Starmill]

Well it's not really me or my former colleague is it?

It seems like it is given you're both happy to publicly blame TfL for it. If you're not just being a partisan perhaps you can explain in detail why precisely TfL are responsible and not anyone else?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2022 ==

It's the rail industry and as TfL have now appointed a barcode implementation Project Manager someone seems to think they should be doing it.

Yes, looking at enabling Chiltern services for example at small stations. But that's a big difference to Kings Cross underground.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Yes, looking at enabling Chiltern services for example at small stations. But that's a big difference to Kings Cross underground.

It is... but I think it makes sense to start with their stations that have National Rail services behind their own gatelines. There is no excuse for holding back on that really. Major stations are a different matter but it must be in TfL's interest to remove the maintenance cost of the paper path through the gates (Travelcards should have been off paper for years). Although it feels to me like that should be a bigger saving than the cost of supporting eTickets, undoubtedly it's someone else's budget, capex vs. opex, etc., and the accounting will make it something other than an obvious saving. There is also a case for RDG paying for much of the work. There's still the safety argument to be overcome of course. No doubt there would be carnage if NR passengers could use (or think they could) any gate.

 

[Benjwri]

but I think it makes sense to start with their stations that have National Rail services behind their own gatelines.

I don't believe TfL have any issue with barcode scanners on National Rail only gatelines, although I assume they try to make someone else pay for them.

All the stations at the Western end of the Elizabeth Line have barcode scanners, including the TfL managed ones. TfL is even actively installing them (I think), as Acton Main Line tickets have changed to allowing fulfilment by E-Tickets since August, presumably meaning scanners have been added.

 

[Starmill]

There is also a case for RDG paying for much of the work.

There would be but again this money is hardly forthcoming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2022 ==

I don't believe TfL have any issue with barcode scanners on National Rail only gatelines, although I assume they try to make someone else pay for them.

All the stations at the Western end of the Elizabeth Line have barcode scanners, including the TfL managed ones. TfL is even actively installing them (I think), as Acton Main Line tickets have changed to allowing fulfilment by E-Tickets since August, presumably meaning scanners have been added.

Indeed. Will also be the case for various LU for Chiltern and LU for London Overground gatelines.

 

[david1212]

Many long distance cross London travellers already don't use through tickets because of the way fares are priced. When the quota availability on the long distance train dictates the cost of the local connection into London, it often isn't worth having a through ticket, and through advances have not been priced as competitively for the last five years or so.

What about non-advance tickets. Suspect their sales are significant.

You can claim they're holding it up because you personally don't like them, same as Haywain, but they can claim they never asked for the change and don't need to put time and money into doing what you want. Why do you think they should do what you want other than because you want it?

I don't see why anyone feels entitled to tell TfL how to spend their strictly limited resources when they've already got a much better solution for themselves and have done for almost 20 years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2022 ==


The most likely outcome is going to be that the tickets lose their cross-London transfer and people will have to pay twice.

Long distance is a loose definition regardless of if advance or walk on.

Perhaps best I do not post the full details as the fares may jump but keeping to walk-on tickets starting on Chiltern at any station Banbury - Kidderminster with a super off-peak return ticket ( 30 day ) the total fare to a variety of destinations nominally south or east of London would jump significantly if bought as a super off-peak return ticket ( 30 day ) to Marylebone, two cross London transfers and the cheapest return ( 30 day ) to the destination even if the latter was only valid at weekends as against the Chiltern tickets being valid arriving in London weekdays after 11:30 is and not departing Marylebone before 0830 or 1600-1900.

CCST is on borrowed time but if travelcards and cross-London tickets were issued on ITSO compatible with TfL gatelines there would be no requirement for TfL to be able to read Aztec barcode E-tickets. IMO it is National Rail that has taken the wrong path.

 

[Dima]

I asked them to reconsider their decision and got a reply that the compensation is approved and that I will receive a cashable rail voucher for the requested amount (as for some reason they are unable to send a bank transfer like they do for Delay Repay).

I am happy with the outcome though it’s a shame that something that could’ve been so easy took a while to get resolved. Hopefully it will prompt them to setup a better process regarding ticket acceptance with smart cards.

 

[Haywain]

It seems like it is given you're both happy to publicly blame TfL for it.

Why are you so keen to prevent others have an opinion while expressing your own so vociferously?

 

[superkopite]

Sadly, they don't have the willingness either.

The NRE Smartcard Management app, available for both iOS and Android can read ITSO smartcards

 

[Haywain]

The NRE Smartcard Management app, available for both iOS and Android can read ITSO smartcards

Indeed it can. But that isn't really designed for staff use and most ticket checking on National Rail operators os done using dedicated apps and equipment.

 

[superkopite]

Indeed it can. But that isn't really designed for staff use and most ticket checking on National Rail operators os done using dedicated apps and equipment.

I have never used a staff-issued device, what is the NRE Smartcard management app lacking? What would make it more staff friendly? I get your point about dedicated apps and equipment. App/device swapping is never fun, but one would have thought doable on sporadic occasions

 

[Haywain]

what is the NRE Smartcard management app lacking?

The ability to record a ticket check and the ability to see if a ticket has been checked previously. I'm not overly familiar with the NRE app, but I'd regard those two as being very important. It's not simply about being able to read the ticket on the card.

 

[Starmill]

Why are you so keen to prevent others have an opinion while expressing your own so vociferously?

I'm not preventing you from expressing your opinion. Where do you think I've done that? What I'm trying to do is have you justify it based on the available evidence. As that's not been forthcoming, but lot of very defensive responses have been, I've questioned if the opinion is in fact partisan rather than arising from the facts.

 

[Haywain]

I'm not preventing you from expressing your opinion. Where do you think I've done that? What I'm trying to do is have you justify it based on the available evidence. As that's not been forthcoming, but lot of very defensive responses have been, I've questioned if the opinion is in fact partisan rather than arising from the facts.

My opinion is based on information I've gathered from meetings I've been in. What's the basis of yours? And why is it necessary to justify my opinion in the face of your regular attacks? Perhaps if your tone was less aggressive you wouldn't see responses as defensive.

 

[Starmill]

My opinion is based on information I've gathered from meetings I've been in. What's the basis of yours? And why is it necessary to justify my opinion in the face of your regular attacks? Perhaps if your tone was less aggressive you wouldn't see responses as defensive.

I'm challenging you and wallsendmag to present some justification for your criticisms of TfL. Why would I need to give a basis for that? The only basis you ever provide is "I'm internal". I'm suggesting that as you'd prefer to share nothing further than that, as is your right, that this isn't really a factual basis, and is instead your corporate analysis. My tone isn't intended to be aggressive, I'm sorry if that's how it has appeared. Surely it's not difficult for you to understand that people are very unlikely to accept your criticisms with no basis beyond "I'm internal"?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm challenging you and wallsendmag to present some justification for your criticisms of TfL. Why would I need to give a basis for that? The only basis you ever provide is "I'm internal". I'm suggesting that as you'd prefer to share nothing further than that, as is your right, that this isn't really a factual basis, and is instead your corporate analysis. My tone isn't intended to be aggressive, I'm sorry if that's how it has appeared. Surely it's not difficult for you to understand that people are very unlikely to accept your criticisms with no basis beyond "I'm internal"?

Although I share a lot there are things that need to remain internal. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

 

[Starmill]

Although I share a lot there are things that need to remain internal. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Surely you accept that people are going to challenge the truth of your claims when you publicly criticise TfL, and when asked why, the reply you give is "it needs to remain internal"?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Sometimes in life you just have to accept that’s the way it is now back to the chocolate it’s much more fun

 

[Starmill]

It's a central tenet of debate that if you hold a strong view, strong enough to make a big criticism of a person or organisation, you'll probably be asked to explain it.

If in response you refuse to explain why you hold a view, or even suggest it's wrong for someone to question your view, and go on to accuse the person asking of trying to remove your right to an opinion, or try to change the subject, it's likely to lead people to the conclusion that your original claim is based on your own bias rather than on the facts.

Indeed, if the people involved had perhaps spent more time trying to use these principles, and put more effort into understanding the position of TfL and LU management in regards to what TOCs would ideally like, we might by now have a negotiated agreement between parties on a way forward, rather than people just having a go at them.

 

[Benjwri]

CCST is on borrowed time but if travelcards and cross-London tickets were issued on ITSO compatible with TfL gatelines there would be no requirement for TfL to be able to read Aztec barcode E-tickets. IMO it is National Rail that has taken the wrong path.

As I'm sure you're aware ITSO already can have travelcards loaded to it, and is compatible with a large amount of flows. Some TOCs allow users to load these from their phone, and so there already is an option if you want to avoid CCST. However I would say I don't think ITSO is the solution, there are numerous issues with how it would be distributed on such a large scale.

Personally I'm surprised ITSO on Mobile hasn't received more support. London Underground gates can already read from the NFC chip, so presumably support would only require a software update, and although currently only supported on Android were a large name such as TfL or the DfT to get behind it I'm sure Apple would add support, so as not to fall behind the competition.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Apple have been the Problem with ITSO on Mobile with the only trials so far being Android only. Although in their defence Apple seem much more willing to play now.
These are facts I know from various industry group meetings that I attend just in case anyone is interested.

 

[Dima]

So today I had to pay with Oyster card again to travel on the tube as Thameslink wasn’t running and I have my season ticket on the Key.

Now both Thameslink and NRE websites explicitly say that paper/magstripe tickets are accepted on TfL on strike days, barcode and Smartcard tickets are not.

I guess I am going to write to Thameslink again and ask them for compensation like I did before. I can probably also ask them to issue me a paper season ticket for my route to avoid this hustle - btw, does anyone know if I can have the same season ticket both on a Smartcard and on paper?

 

[Hadders]

You can't have a season ticket on both paper and smartcard.

 

[Haywain]

btw, does anyone know if I can have the same season ticket both on a Smartcard and on paper?

Definitely not both at the same time.

 

[Adam Williams]

Personally I'm surprised ITSO on Mobile hasn't received more support. London Underground gates can already read from the NFC chip, so presumably support would only require a software update, and although currently only supported on Android were a large name such as TfL or the DfT to get behind it I'm sure Apple would add support, so as not to fall behind the competition.

The fact of the matter is that Apple have dragged their heels on host-card emulation for years. I believe they're starting to be less obstinate about this now (and supporting it in France?), but against this backdrop you cannot blame the rail industry for going with a barcode-based approach instead. ITSO has so many drawbacks without HCE (requiring the customer to own and keep ahold of a physical card, load the products etc) - and even with it I'm not convinced it won't be flaky and result in a worse UX than barcode-based ticketing.

You can claim they're holding it up because you personally don't like them, same as Haywain, but they can claim they never asked for the change and don't need to put time and money into doing what you want. Why do you think they should do what you want other than because you want it?

I agree with @Haywain and @Wallsendmag on this.

Frankly, if they're not going to keep up with the rest of the national rail industry, perhaps cross-London marked tickets and other integrated products like travelcards should simply be dropped from the fares data and withdrawn from retail. Customers can use a contactless card or Oyster card to travel and TfL can do what they want in their own little bubble. Retailers can stop wasting money on ToD.

The DfT clearly loves e-ticketing because it gives them a speedier transition to getting rid of paper tickets, and thus being able to close ticket offices. It doesn't matter that so far Cubic has not allowed any way to properly check them at the gates

It really shouldn't matter what one supplier is doing or not doing (though I agree this seems like a colossal oversight). That should ultimately have no bearing on the value of E-Tickets as a fulfilment method. The spec is open to rail industry participants, anyone can build a system for checking E-Tickets - it's not hard. Indeed, I think at least one TOC (Northern) has partnered with TTK in this area to detect discounted tickets.

 

[jon0844]

Cubic is the company that seems to be dragging its heels, and the industry can't just switch to another supplier. Northern is indeed doing its own thing, but that's not something that should be necessary.

The DfT seems unaware of the level of fraud, or doesn't want to know, or doesn't care (even though the loss in revenue is the stick to beat staff with).

 

[Hadders]

Frankly, if they're not going to keep up with the rest of the national rail industry, perhaps cross-London marked tickets and other integrated products like travelcards should simply be dropped from the fares data and withdrawn from retail. Customers can use a contactless card or Oyster card to travel and TfL can do what they want in their own little bubble. Retailers can stop wasting money on ToD.

The resulting increase in fares this would bring would not be acceptable.

 

[paul1609]

Frankly, if they're not going to keep up with the rest of the national rail industry, perhaps cross-London marked tickets and other integrated products like travelcards should simply be dropped from the fares data and withdrawn from retail. Customers can use a contactless card or Oyster card to travel and TfL can do what they want in their own little bubble. Retailers can stop wasting money on ToD.

The problem with that is the "National Rail Industry" is primarily London and the South East (68% of passenger journeys). By the time that you also strip out the PTEs mixed mode tickets and Scotrail basically what's been introduced suits a very niche part of the industry primarily long distance operators.
I think it's quite questionable if we even need independent retailers on a system that's been underwritten by the tax payer we definitely shouldn't be worrying about their costs the extent that its defining the ticketing system.