UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[trebor79]

plus they hate having to sacrifice range for heat.

Not disputing the other issues, but heating doesn't reduce your range by any practical amount unless you are doing loads of very short journeys.
Heat on/off is a difference of about 10 miles in my Kia Niro. Makes sense, after the initial blast to get the cat warm it consumes about 1kW tops, whereas driving averages about 20kW. So less than 5% range depletion. Over a 3 hour journey the heating will consume a max of 3kWh, or around 12 miles of range. No big deal at all.

 

[Noddy]

My step-mum has a motability car and that skews the total cost of ownership EV argument as she's only paying for the fuel, this makes owning an EV less attractive, especially if like her you cannot charge at home and rely on variable public charger pricing.
Currently they do have an id.3 and have done for about 9 months but not for much longer as it has been agreed that it was mis-sold and it is being replaced with a petrol vehicle (most likely a Corsa Ultimate Auto, as that was the best they could get at the end of the year and they didn't want to hang around and wait for the 1st when the new round of pricing is announced), early starts to get charge and the drop in capacity in the cold are just too problematic for them, plus they hate having to sacrifice range for heat. Switching back to a non-electric vehicle will change their motoring costs minimally but will make life so much easier.

It does sound like it wasn’t the right car for her situation. From what you are inferring she is/was charging using public chargers and her ID3 had the smallest (of the three) battery size (given the range anxiety). Was there no option to have a charger fitted at home? Or does she live somewhere that’s not possible. If you can charge at home and only pay for fuel the EV will almost certainly be cheaper to run than a petrol (unless you’re on an extremely expensive tariff), and would take away some of the range anxiety.

 

[jon0844]

Many articles talk of the reduced range at speed or in the cold, as if a normal ICE vehicle isn't impacted by these things too.

Drive fast in a petrol car. Less mpg.
Air conditioning on in the hot. Less mpg.
Heating on in the cold. Less mpg.
Drive short distances before the engine warms up. Less mpg.

It's more obvious in an EV perhaps, but the same rules apply.

 

[AM9]

... Drive short distances before the engine warms up. Less mpg.

... & much more wear and tear on the engine

It's more obvious in an EV perhaps, but the same rules apply.

except the one I've added where the motor/transmission temperature makes little if any difference to wear and tear

 

[jon0844]

... & much more wear and tear on the engine


except the one I've added where the motor/transmission temperature makes little if any difference to wear and tear

yes, I didn't mention the lack of warm up time on an EV as being another benefit.

Clearly the cost of maintaining an EV is significantly less and needs to be considered as much as the savings on a per mile basis. Not that the industry won't be seeking to find alternative ways to get revenue from car owners. If you aren't paying £300-500 a year on servicing (more perhaps for major services) then they'll be wanting you to pay for subscriptions to services to continue getting an income stream.

We've talked about this already, but I hope people resist this move - although I expect they won't because car makers will make a big deal of giving you a car with features you may not want to pay for now, but may want later.

While this isn't an EV specific idea, the majority of new cars with the tech to do this will most likely be EVs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heating on in the cold. Less mpg.

That one isn't generally true (though the others are). ICE cars are heated by waste engine heat which if you don't direct it into the cabin is just dumped into the atmosphere. Sure, there's a bit of power for the fan, but that would run for a couple of hours on an AA battery so isn't significant.

Advantage of an EV there is that with an electric (resistive or heat pump) heater you get heat immediately, not a mile down the road.

 

[jon0844]

I was referring to an ICE vehicle having those issues. It seems that a lot of people right now are really jumping on the 'EVs are useless in the cold' bandwagon, almost as if it's orchestrated by associations trying to put people off electric vehicles. Of course the cold (and even rain) can impact EV range, and there are countless videos showing this, but petrol and diesel cars are also impacted by the cold, or driving at 70+ mph on a motorway versus lower speeds in town.

The Sun today had a story about a Jaguar EV owner who couldn't wait to get rid of their EV due to countless problems, without actually detailing ANY of the problems (it was implied that charging issues might play a part, but that wasn't stated specifically), other than adding that the owner couldn't wait to go back to a petrol car.

No doubt such articles then get cited in future arguments against EVs.

We must be due some more posts about EV batteries only lasting six months and in the second month will only have about 1% of their capacity...!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was referring to an ICE vehicle having those issues.

And I am refuting one of them. Putting the heater on (which you can do without the fan) does not reduce the MPG of an ICE engine. It's all waste heat which is just dumped otherwise.

TBH I'd not buy a Jag anyway, electric or not - they don't exactly have a good reliability reputation.

 

[dgl]

It does sound like it wasn’t the right car for her situation. From what you are inferring she is/was charging using public chargers and her ID3 had the smallest (of the three) battery size (given the range anxiety). Was there no option to have a charger fitted at home? Or does she live somewhere that’s not possible. If you can charge at home and only pay for fuel the EV will almost certainly be cheaper to run than a petrol (unless you’re on an extremely expensive tariff), and would take away some of the range anxiety.

Charging at home was impossible as they live in a ground floor goin the middle of a two story block that is at 90° to the parking spaces so public charging was the only option.
As for model of id.3 she has a pro model so it's got the better battery.

 

[A0]

Many articles talk of the reduced range at speed or in the cold, as if a normal ICE vehicle isn't impacted by these things too.

Drive fast in a petrol car. Less mpg.
Air conditioning on in the hot. Less mpg.
Heating on in the cold. Less mpg.
Drive short distances before the engine warms up. Less mpg.

It's more obvious in an EV perhaps, but the same rules apply.

Bit in bold - not usually. Most cars use the heat from the engine as part of the cabin heating system as the cooling system is routed via a matrix which then has air passed over it and onto the blower ducts.

So having the heating on doesn't make any difference. Aircon, driving style, having the windows or a sunroof open all do have an impact - but having the heater on doesn't. Whereas with an EV it does use an electric heater which will be taking energy from the battery.

 

[bspahh]

Many articles talk of the reduced range at speed or in the cold, as if a normal ICE vehicle isn't impacted by these things too.

Drive fast in a petrol car. Less mpg.
Air conditioning on in the hot. Less mpg.
Heating on in the cold. Less mpg.
Drive short distances before the engine warms up. Less mpg.

It's more obvious in an EV perhaps, but the same rules apply.

Yes the same rules apply. Cold weather reduces the range of my Mondeo on a tank of of diesel. However, when its it goes over 700 miles between refilling, then its not really an issue.

The story about giving up on an electric car was from Giles Coren. He has to write a column each week. I would not read too much into his precise views

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes the same rules apply. Cold weather reduces the range of my Mondeo on a tank of of diesel. However, when its it goes over 700 miles between refilling, then its not really an issue.

The story about giving up on an electric car was from Giles Coren. He has to write a column each week. I would not read too much into his precise views

And I don't think it's really a great issue to accept that an EV is not suitable for every use-case at the moment due to the developing nature of things like the charging infrastructure. That doesn't mean they're not suitable for many now, nor does it mean they won't be suitable for everyone in say 10 years' time.

Blind evangelism is on the same level as blind dismissal. As with anything political sense normally lies somewhere in the middle, and we can spend far too long arguing about whether it's slightly to the left or right of that middle point.

 

[Noddy]

Charging at home was impossible as they live in a ground floor goin the middle of a two story block that is at 90° to the parking spaces so public charging was the only option.
As for model of id.3 she has a pro model so it's got the better battery.

Yeah, shared parking spaces are still an issue. The situation does seem to be improving in some places but not others.

It worries me massively that I’m still seeing new builds (in my day job) with poor provision for charging (because they were approved before June 2022).

 

[jon0844]

Bit in bold - not usually. Most cars use the heat from the engine as part of the cabin heating system as the cooling system is routed via a matrix which then has air passed over it and onto the blower ducts.

So having the heating on doesn't make any difference. Aircon, driving style, having the windows or a sunroof open all do have an impact - but having the heater on doesn't. Whereas with an EV it does use an electric heater which will be taking energy from the battery.

I don't think I said it very well, as I was thinking of a cold morning when it is frosted or misted up and you need to run the engine until hot to get the heat to clear.

An EV won't need that dead time on the drive to get hot enough to clear the windows (especially the side windows even if you have a good front demister or quick clear glass).

 

[DelW]

I don't think I said it very well, as I was thinking of a cold morning when it is frosted or misted up and you need to run the engine until hot to get the heat to clear.

An EV won't need that dead time on the drive to get hot enough to clear the windows (especially the side windows even if you have a good front demister or quick clear glass).

Indeed, as you're probably aware but others may not be, most plug-in EVs (including hybrids) can be fully warmed up without moving, using either mains power or battery. If using mains power, while that obviously has to be paid for, there's no loss of range.

 

[JamesT]

Indeed, as you're probably aware but others may not be, most plug-in EVs (including hybrids) can be fully warmed up without moving, using either mains power or battery. If using mains power, while that obviously has to be paid for, there's no loss of range.

Some ICE cars have remote start or remote climate control features, but it’s normally reserved for the highest end models. But given how much most EVs cost, it’s not surprising they normally chuck in such things.

 

[DelW]

Some ICE cars have remote start or remote climate control features, but it’s normally reserved for the highest end models. But given how much most EVs cost, it’s not surprising they normally chuck in such things.

A mains powered electric heater is surely preferable to running a petrol engine in a stationary vehicle though, unless I've misunderstood what you're describing.

(Edited to add): Plus my PHEV, which has such a system, cost in the low thirties (new), which I don't think counts as anywhere near "highest end" these days!

 

[jon0844]

A mains powered electric heater is surely preferable to running a petrol engine in a stationary vehicle though, unless I've misunderstood what you're describing.

As is commonplace in places like Sweden where communal car parking for residents usually come with power sockets.

 

[reddragon]

My last diesel would take 10-15 mins to get warm enough to drive off and see, less if I scraped all the windows. Petrol is about 5 mins but my EV is 1-2 mins to clear frost. Pre-heat is of course zero wait!

 

[bspahh]

My last diesel would take 10-15 mins to get warm enough to drive off and see, less if I scraped all the windows. Petrol is about 5 mins but my EV is 1-2 mins to clear frost. Pre-heat is of course zero wait!

Heated Quickclear Windscreens are really great. Within a minute, even a hard frost is gone. You still have to scrape lights and side windows though.

 

[reddragon]

Heated Quickclear Windscreens are really great. Within a minute, even a hard frost is gone. You still have to scrape lights and side windows though.

I just use warm water, much quicker, less hassle & warms the screen a bit. Works down to about minus 5 then probably too cold for that anyway & dry air stops the frosting by then.

 

[johncrossley]

I just use warm water, much quicker, less hassle & warms the screen a bit. Works down to about minus 5 then probably too cold for that anyway & dry air stops the frosting by then.

If warm water isn't a good idea for petrol cars, why is it OK for electric cars?

 

[reddragon]

If warm water isn't a good idea for petrol cars, why is it OK for electric cars?

I've used it on all my cars for decades, it works. Of course luke warm water not hot water! And do not just pour it all over just sprinkle at first.

 

[johncrossley]

I've used it on all my cars for decades, it works. Of course luke warm water not hot water! And do not just pour it all over just sprinkle at first.

The AA thinks lukewarm water isn't recommended

How to defrost a car windscreen – step-by-step guide | The AA

Find out how to de-ice your car and windscreen quickly. Don't pour hot water onto the windscreen or leave the engine running – follow these steps instead.

www.theaa.com

Avoid even lukewarm water​

Glass expands quickly when hot or even warm water touches it. But it'll contract quickly too as it cools down in the cold air. That flexing can make the glass crack even if you're using lukewarm water – especially if it had small chips or cracks already.

When we asked drivers, 23% said they'd used warm water on the windscreen.* But the risk isn't worth it as it could land you in a worse situation than when you started.

 

[reddragon]

I've had no issues on multiple cars of all ages. Start car, heating on use water just warmer than the outside temperature, warm it up slowly. I often just sprinkle the luke warm water on gradually warming up the screen. Most useful when the screen has hard ice, most risky when very cold.

Common sense works, rushing with hot water doesn't!

 

[johncrossley]

I've had no issues on multiple cars of all ages. Start car, heating on use water just warmer than the outside temperature, warm it up slowly. I often just sprinkle the luke warm water on gradually warming up the screen. Most useful when the screen has hard ice, most risky when very cold.

Common sense works, rushing with hot water doesn't!

Why take the risk? De-icer is cheap and easy enough.

 

[birchesgreen]

Why take the risk? De-icer is cheap and easy enough.

De-icer can damage the paint work i am told, although its what i use myself of the ice is too thick to scrape without!

 

[trebor79]

Why take the risk? De-icer is cheap and easy enough.

I find deicer doesn't work on frozen rain (ie solid ice). Works OK on frost.

 

[bspahh]

I just use warm water, much quicker, less hassle & warms the screen a bit. Works down to about minus 5 then probably too cold for that anyway & dry air stops the frosting by then.

I don't like pouring water around when its cold, to avoid puddles that freeze into black ice. I'd also hate to get water in the door seal that then freezes it shut.

 

[RailWonderer]

What I haven't seen anyone mention yet is how the long term battery life on an EV will fall the more times it is charged, or long term range reduction. Like a phone battery, the older it gets, the less use between charges it gives. The only way the cost of a new battery is offset is by the reduced maintenance costs of an EV and extra depreciation to the used value of the car when its battery is degraded. Some cheaper EVs will simply be uneconomical.