Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[Goldfish62]

That is exactly what a job share is.

For the individual it's part time. However, whatever definition you attach to it it seems from previous posts that there's resistance even to job shares.

 

[Moonshot]

For the individual it's part time. However, whatever definition you attach to it it seems from previous posts that there's resistance even to job shares.

ASLEFs own charter does state they are quite happy to see job share and part time contracts

 

[dk1]

Job share after taking your railway pension is becoming increasingly popular. Work a couple of days a week on average & get almost a full time drivers pay. What's not to like?

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ASLEFs own charter does state they are quite happy to see job share and part time contracts

But its on a depot by depot basis and not quite as clear cut as it sounds.

 

[whoosh]

Has anywhere actually come up with a decent way of managing and reacting to these kind of issues, short of having a significant surplus in establishment just in case?

London Underground at some of it's large depots - Arnos Grove, and Morden spring to mind, have separate rotas for Dead Early, Inside Early (from about 7am), Inside Lates (starts from 12pm with mostly early afternoons but with some finishes upto around 21:00 - 22:00 at the latest), Dead Lates, and Nights.
And a Mixed Rota with earliest and lates and nights.

This is only realistic at a large depot, and also as they are on a five day week there is a bigger spread of shifts as well.

It should be pointed out though, that whilst this might be a great way of doing things that worked well, Night Tube has now meant that on Fridays and Saturdays there are some night duties in rotas such as Inside Early, which hasn't gone down well obviously.

 

[Goldfish62]

ASLEFs own charter does state they are quite happy to see job share and part time contracts

Yes, I've just read it and it's there in black and white:

ASLEF will actively seek to negotiate with TOC/FOC’s part time contracts but not to the detriment of establishment numbers.

 

[Moonshot]

Job share after taking your railway pension is becoming increasingly popular. Work a couple of days a week on average & get almost a full time drivers pay. What's not to like?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==



But its on a depot by depot basis and not quite as clear cut as it sounds.

It's something we are seeing happen at my TOC. I myself am heading down that route in the not too distant future. As it stands now , the ones who are already working part time have come from the full time ranks. In effect, it's semi retirement.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's something we are seeing happen at my TOC. I myself am heading down that route in the not too distant future. As it stands now , the ones who are already working part time have come from the full time ranks. In effect, it's semi retirement.

I think this and other issues highlighted in this thread highlights the insanity of negotiating on a national level with a body who isn't the direct employer rather than on a direct company level.

Who on earth decided that was a good idea?!

 

[dk1]

It's something we are seeing happen at my TOC. I myself am heading down that route in the not too distant future. As it stands now , the ones who are already working part time have come from the full time ranks. In effect, it's semi retirement.

I can't quite decide. I don't expect to be working after I'm 56 so a couple more years. Not had to do nights since 2011 but then i don't really want to do stupid early or late late shifts either. Probably just leave rather than linger.

 

[43066]

Yes i was thinking about over 50s.

Fair enough.

Hence why we only allow it for ill health or those family friendly female drivers. For everyone else it would be a strict job share.

This is also problematic. It shouldn’t really be presumed these days that females do all the child care, and there are plenty of drivers with young families who aren’t accommodated.

Also I’m aware of an example of a female driver coming back to work after having a baby and not asking for accommodated hours. This has put noses out of joint amongst some of her colleagues on long-standing “family friendly” agreements, despite their own kids being secondary school age.

In my view part time should be offered to all or none at all. On GWR its amazing how many drivers have cushy arrangements where they only work a couple of days a week and yet are taking home nearly as much pay as everyone else. Thats fine, but it should be open to all. I can see why the government want an increase in part time working as It will encourage more women into the role, but it won't go down well when these new recruits only have to work 9 til 3 Monday to Thursday, whilst the rest of us pick up increasingly unsociable hours.
The job is very much open to women, indeed we have several excellent female drivers at Plymouth. This meddling by the Dft is only going to upset the apple cart and for no good reason.

Generally agree (although it’s accommodated rather than part time that seems to cause the problems). Kids are a lifestyle choice at the end of the day - ultimately I don’t like early starts or late finishes, so why shouldn’t I be able to do accommodated hours for that reason?

The only fair way to do it is for everyone to have access to the same flexibility (which we know will never happen), or for everyone to be on the same roster and have to swap/book annual leave.

 

[357]

Part time is no friend of current drivers.



You only have to look at c2c's part time to see what they have instore.



3 or 4 days a week driving peak hour trains.

Where that would have normally been driven by a full timer with a bit of spare on the end or shunting.

Current drivers would be best off getting their branch to negotiate reduced hours or job shares.

Monday to Friday, East Ham do early and late and Shoeburyness do early only.

 

[dk1]

Fair enough.




This is also problematic. It shouldn’t really be presumed these days that females do all the child care, and there are plenty of drivers with young families who aren’t accommodated.

Also I’m aware of an example of a female driver coming back to work after having a baby and not asking for accommodated hours. This has put noses out of joint amongst some of her colleagues on long-standing “family friendly” agreements, despite their own kids being secondary school age.

I can speak first hand on that mate. A recent trainee is returning after a year's maternity leave. She is coming back full time and wants no special treatment whatsoever.

 

[43066]

I can speak first hand on that mate. A recent trainee is returning after a year's maternity leave. She is coming back full time and wants no special treatment whatsoever.

Fair play to her! As I say it’s other females who seem to have had the issue with someone doing that where I am (not my depot)!

I don't know where you get the idea that part timers earn nearly as much as full timers. My friend is on 50% pay 50% leave entitlement and 50% pension entitlement.

Some will either have already taken a pension, and some might choose to work rest days (which is fair enough if they want to do so).

 

[Moonshot]

I can't quite decide. I don't expect to be working after I'm 56 so a couple more years. Not had to do nights since 2011 but then i don't really want to do stupid early or late late shifts either. Probably just leave rather than linger.

It's a nice choice to have. I myself would rather keep myself at least semi active in retirement

 

[dk1]

It's a nice choice to have. I myself would rather keep myself at least semi active in retirement

Oh yeah I can & will do that. Just at what I haven't decided. Plenty of time and anything could happen between now & 2026. As you say though it's nice to have the choice.

 

[irish_rail]

Is there any suggestion that it would be 9-3 Mon-Thurs? I don't know how you possibly come to that conclusion? And in case isn't that assumption a little bit sexist?

Sexist? I never implied females or males? I have no issue with job share provided the 2 sharers remain in the main link and don't get their own link. At Plymouth there are now 12 links (HSS and GWR). There was just one 10 years ago. My issue is, certain of these links are extremely cushy whilst the main link gets increasingly the worst jobs and start times. We don't have any job share at Plymouth. It was only ever authorised for Exeter and Penzance, but not Plymouth. It is certainly at present a very grey area. I understand existing drivers being accommodated who hit hard times etc, but actively inviting new candidates in who aren't prepared to work all shifts and start and finish times , that I take issue with.

 

[theageofthetra]

Probably because they have taken their Railway Pension as well.


This 'part time' thing.... obviously has been (ill) thought out by people who haven't a clue.
"Ooh I know, let's have part time drivers like the buses."
Right. Where there's a little country route somewhere that runs during daylight hours only, and everyone else on the main rota gets 'shift allowance' that placates them for being stuck with rest of the work.
Doesn't really translate to trains does it?

"We need to attract a more diverse workforce."
Let's start recruiting!
Oh... they've only gone and had children and are now struggling to find childcare at 04:30 in the morning.
"And we need drivers to be more flexible." So later notice of shift changes and more movement of shift changes then?
That'll help with childcare right? In fact, that's not helpful even with a partner at home full time.

"It's the Unions resisting change and diversity."

Oh of course it is!

Spot on.

 

[theageofthetra]

Time off to have a family is a difficult one to manage really. On the one hand, I support the idea that one shouldn't be forced to choose between the basic biological functions of life and having a fulfilling job.

On the other hand, it is difficult to see how rail companies and others in similar positions can mitigate the absence this necessarily entails - I have colleagues who haven't been near a train in literally years having had 2 or 3 children in short succession. In jobs with long training lead times it is nigh on impossible to forecast cover provision and these staff are still occupying positions in the depot establishment. It is further complicated if on their return they do wish to have things like set hours or shifts to work to ease childcare.

Has anywhere actually come up with a decent way of managing and reacting to these kind of issues, short of having a significant surplus in establishment just in case?

That situation of female drivers (often with a partner or relative on the job who knows how to play the system) coming in with the deliberate intention of having kids and not working for 2-3 years is completely unacceptable. Particularly when leave is declined to cover them.

When I've told female friends outside the job of this happening they are appalled.

 

[Goldfish62]

Sexist? I never implied females or males?

Apologies if I misunderstood you, but this is what you said:

an increase in part time working as It will encourage more women into the role, but it won't go down well when these new recruits only have to work 9 til 3 Monday to Thursday,

 

[glasgowniteowl]

It's worth pointing out that a lot of people being accommodated etc are described as "family friendly" that term was what was previously used when requesting flexible working as at the time it was one of the few reasons you were allowed to request it

work place laws have moved on, now everyone has the right to request flexible working, with a family or not is now irrelevant, there's a list of reasons that it can be refused, so anyone can request it and everyone has the same chance of getting it as everyone else

It's one of the additional rights that unions have fought for over the years, it saddens me sometimes when I hear people complaining about people who are genuinely using their work place rights just because they never got them when they started, it should be a goal to improve conditions not stop reduce them just because some may not benefit from some of them

 

[43066]

It's worth pointing out that a lot of people being accommodated etc are described as "family friendly" that term was what was previously used when requesting flexible working as at the time it was one of the few reasons you were allowed to request it

work place laws have moved on, now everyone has the right to request flexible working, with a family or not is now irrelevant, there's a list of reasons that it can be refused, so anyone can request it and everyone has the same chance of getting it as everyone else

It's one of the additional rights that unions have fought for over the years, it saddens me sometimes when I hear people complaining about people who are genuinely using their work place rights just because they never got them when they started, it should be a goal to improve conditions not stop reduce them just because some may not benefit from some of them

Under employment law everyone has the right to request flexible working, but employers are under no obligation to grant it, so long as they can point to one of a number of (widely drafted) reasons for refusing.

It’s pretty clear why flexible working won’t ever be able to be made available to the vast majority of those working as traincrew. If it’s granted to some and not others this then means the anti social shifts of the chosen few have to be picked up by everyone else.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks, I have noticed the bus strikes in London are with drivers who are members of Unite but I've never seen the RMT strike on the various London bus companies.

My understanding is bus operators that were historically railway-owned sometimes have RMT as the recognised union. I don't think the London companies were ever railway-owned so the RMT would not have been involved.

 

[ChrisC]

I can't quite decide. I don't expect to be working after I'm 56 so a couple more years. Not had to do nights since 2011 but then i don't really want to do stupid early or late late shifts either. Probably just leave rather than linger.

I didn’t work on the railways but retired 8 years ago when I was aged 58 after 36 years as a primary school teacher. I still really enjoyed working with the children and would have liked to have carried on for a few more years. It was the endless hours of unnecessary paperwork and admin, just to tick boxes to please OFSTED which decided it for me. I’d had enough of working more than 10 hours a day plus spending Sunday evenings typing out loads of planning to hand into my headteacher. Totally unnecessary for experienced teachers with 30+ years teaching.

It's a nice choice to have. I myself would rather keep myself at least semi active in retirement

If, like me, you have the chance, I would say go for it. Fortunately, my Teachers Pension, even after finishing early, has been perfectly adequate and I do have savings, although I’ve hardly touched them. My state pension this year now I’m reaching 66 will just be a welcome added bonus to help pay the gas bill! With gardening at home and also voluntary in my local church grounds, walking and now cycling, other hobbies, and going away on holiday at least for a few days each month, I’ve kept very active and don’t know how I found time to go to work. I do realise that I was fortunate and had the money to be able to retire early. I don’t think so many people will be able to in the future.

 

[strawbrick]

Steve Montgomery was on BBC Radio 4's Today programme just after 0750 this morning.
He stated that if the first offer made to Aslef was accepted then in a year's time the average train driver would be on £64,000 a year.
Is this figure correct?

 

[Goldfish62]

My understanding is bus operators that were historically railway-owned sometimes have RMT as the recognised union. I don't think the London companies were ever railway-owned so the RMT would not have been involved.

See my post #78.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

Under employment law everyone has the right to request flexible working, but employers are under no obligation to grant it, so long as they can point to one of a number of (widely drafted) reasons for refusing.

It’s pretty clear why flexible working won’t ever be able to be made available to the vast majority of those working as traincrew. If it’s granted to some and not others this then means the anti social shifts of the chosen few have to be picked up by everyone else.

Why is active negotiation of part-time contracts in the ASLEF Charter?

 

[43066]

Why is active negotiation of part-time contracts in the ASLEF Charter?

Part time is generally just two people sharing a single line on the roster for half pay. They therefore still pick up their fair share of the rubbish.

“Accommodated hours” means that driver works (say) between 9-5 and not at weekends, so all their turns starting or finishing outside that are dished out to other people.

 

[diego1234]

Steve Montgomery was on BBC Radio 4's Today programme just after 0750 this morning.
He stated that if the first offer made to Aslef was accepted then in a year's time the average train driver would be on £64,000 a year.
Is this figure correct?

Depends who you work for!

 

[irish_rail]

Apologies if I misunderstood you, but this is what you said:

Yes the intention from the government is to increase further the number of women becoming drivers, but of course the flexible working would be used just as much by men with childcare responsibities . This is all very well but as I said it increases the load on everyone else. Actively encouraging it won't go down well. The number of female drivers is rising fast, its getting very noticeably better on GWR in past 3 years or so. This smacks of pointless meddling by the Dft who for some reason must be ignoring the figures showing the big increases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

Depends who you work for!

Steve Montgomery was on BBC Radio 4's Today programme just after 0750 this morning.
He stated that if the first offer made to Aslef was accepted then in a year's time the average train driver would be on £64,000 a year.
Is this figure correct?

Which is all very well but the conditions attached to it make it completely unworkable and I'm sure Mr Montgomery knows that, yet will go with the 64k soundbite in order to rouse the angry gammon types who will no doubt be enraged at it all!

 

[Goldfish62]

Part time is generally just two people sharing a single line on the roster for half pay. They therefore still pick up their fair share of the rubbish.

“Accommodated hours” means that driver works (say) between 9-5 and not at weekends, so all their turns starting or finishing outside that are dished out to other people.

Thanks, but job share (ie as my friend does sharing a single line) is mentioned as a separate item in the Charter so clearly ASLEF is distinguishing part-time working from this.

 

[FR510]

This is an interesting read.

https://twitter.com/toptraindriver/status/1611452290598043655?s=48&t=oP7aHA_3gwLYpVpsBzKVKA

 

[43066]

Thanks, but job share (ie as my friend does sharing a single line) is mentioned as a separate item in the Charter so clearly ASLEF is distinguishing part-time working from this.

I hadn’t actually spotted that! I suppose it might be referring to things like the C2C arrangement. It was a slightly strange arrangement which was “part time” but still working four (shorter) days per week, so half the money but almost as disruptive as working full time.

Albeit that hasn’t happened anywhere else and C2C haven’t (AFAIK) recruited again on the same basis. Arrangements like that focussed around traditional AM or PM peaks seem less likely now, post Covid.

@357 might know more about it.