• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I wonder if he will have the balls to do it in a couple of months?

I would be very, very surprised if it went ahead. It's a guaranteed election loser.

But no, it won't get people off the roads. Two quid a litre didn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Indeed. This is a key reason why demand in the used market is so high.

And it's largely because of the lack of supply, not because people don't want new cars.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,353
Location
Bolton
instead of going in from Aylesbury which is slow and infrequent a lot of Aylesburyites drive to Tring, and driving to outer Tube stations isn't unknown, but again these aren't huge numbers and they're not total losses to rail.
It doesn't help that it costs 35% more for an Anytime Day Return from Aylesbury to London than Tring to London, for a slower and less frequent service.
 

DC1989

Member
Joined
25 Mar 2022
Messages
553
Location
London
In and around Manchester the local authorities have made driving much less pleasant through reallocating road space to buses and cyclists, which is arguably a good thing but not good for those who don't have an alternative to the car. I suspect one reason for the UK's lack of productivity in recent years is because the transport networks have deteriorated through a combination of increased traffic congestion and deteriorating reliability of public transport. Transport routes are the arteries of an economy like the UK's, and using that analogy the UK's economy is on its way to heart disease.

Somewhat true - London has 50% higher productivity than the rest of the UK and it's widely accepted by economists and politicians of all stripes that Londons decent public transport system plays a part in that
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,672
People keep saying that because it's true and many of these car parks aren't as well used as they were in the past. I'd rather travel by train but they just can't be relied upon, car hire companies must be loving it.
And some are worse. I used to always get a space pre covid. Since then I have had to wait for a space on one occasion and got lucky that one or two people came back to their car as I was arriving. I even had to drive behind a person who was walking back to their car.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,742
It should be much lower going by the price of a barrel. Companies will take the opportunity of duty increase to add a few more pence on a litre for their own pockets.

I would be very, very surprised if it went ahead. It's a guaranteed election loser.

But no, it won't get people off the roads. Two quid a litre didn't.
Even if they did add on a few pence per litre on top. I would agree it isn't going to make much of a dent. PetrolPrices.com has the cheapest supermarket petrol for me at 145.9, so unless you have an unfounded fear of that, Shell is 147.9. Add on 15p and you are still "only" at 162.9 a litre. I am far from convinced and agree that a noticeable change in peoples attitudes won't happen.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
8,045
Location
Surrey
Even if they did add on a few pence per litre on top. I would agree it isn't going to make much of a dent. PetrolPrices.com has the cheapest supermarket petrol for me at 145.9, so unless you have an unfounded fear of that, Shell is 147.9. Add on 15p and you are still "only" at 162.9 a litre. I am far from convinced and agree that a noticeable change in peoples attitudes won't happen.
Fuel prices down over 20% from last years peak although also remember duty has been dropped temporarily which is due to be reinstated in April although I agree even £2/litre didn't dissuade people reckon you would need 4+ to force any serious modal shift.
 

Thirteen

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2021
Messages
1,904
Location
London
Given that a new railway station can open up new opportunities and indeed more new homes, I'm not that we should writing the railways obituary just yet.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,280
I don't think anyone is claiming to this in the absolute though are they?

They're just pointing out that the fixed cost elements (purchase, any finance, VED) and the quasi-fixed costs (maintenance, insurance) combined with the government's huge tax cut on fuel compared to 2010 levels (6p/litre duty less in cash terms, 12 - 18p/litre less in real terms and including VAT https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/fuel-duty-rates) means that the balance is tipped very heavily against public transport for anyone who already has car access. Of course, some changes to the tax system would help this more than spending that bit more to get public transport back to a minimum standard of reliability.
You can't look at the cut in fuel duty by itself though. Petrol prices are still very expensive and massively taxed, raising the government £20 to 25bn a year, and leapt horrendously thanks to Putin

 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,811
Location
Central Belt
It does make a very interesting situation, but I can see why this is happening. I think the likes of the standard offering from TPE and Avanti are actually more of an impact than the strikes. At least you can make plans on strike days, even if that is make alternative arrangements. It is interesting that you get people saying "I never use the trains", but also complain there is more traffic on the roads on strike days. In any city we see the same things, difficult to park. congestion etc. I suspect people may find the car isn't as great.

When you look at Rural routes (which are most at risk of closing down altogether as per government policy). I often ask why do people use the train on these routes. Girmsby Town - Lincoln Central is a good example. The route is infrequent, the trains are not the best and you stand a high chance of getting left on the platform. So people either can't afford a car (which isn't going to change) or the fact that they can do other things and not worry about alcohol consumption may be the reason. But I can't see a whole train of alcoholics on a rural route, so I suspect it is parking at the city end that is the challenge.

The situation is bad however, I have a car, I am using it more on journeys to the North West and not considering the train. Mainly because you can't plan and it is acceptable to withdraw journeys at after 2200 the day before travel and leave passengers to figure it out themselves. As I said earlier, I would pick routes using either TPE or Avanti anymore as part of the route options.
 

Silverlinky

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
876
You can't look at the cut in fuel duty by itself though. Petrol prices are still very expensive and massively taxed, raising the government £20 to 25bn a year, and leapt horrendously thanks to Putin


Fuel duty "take" is pretty stable though, and if anything in real terms lower than it has been as the attached charts show. £26.2bn was raised as long ago as 2009/10, compared to £25.9bn last year. The year Covid really hit shows a £7bn decline in the amount of fuel duty raised by the government.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/
 

SirAlf

Member
Joined
24 Jul 2015
Messages
116
Location
Derbyshire
As with the recent thread on Saturday rail travel, I've followed this thread with interest. I also saw this mornings news item about ASLEF maybe intensifying their dispute.

I'm a regular train traveller for sporting events – in winter football and rugby union and in summer rugby league. I've just finished looking at the forthcoming fixtures. In the next couple of months I've got 2 trips to Twickenham, 1 to Wembley and regular away matches for my football club. Normally I'd do all that by train, take the opportunity for a few beers and sometimes an overnight stay. But...

No strikes announced for my Twickenham or Wembley days but I can travel by National Express straight to the stadium. I didn't want a strike to be announced and find the National Express bus was already full. So I booked National Express instead of the train. That's 3 train trips lost.

Same problem for 3 away matches for my club, if I booked the train and a strike was announced then the supporters club bus might be full. So I've booked it now, another 3 train trips lost.

Now I know I'm only one person, 6 leisure train trips won't make any difference in the overall scheme of things but I stress, I'm a regular train traveller – I really like trains. But surely there are thousands like me that are slowly losing patience.

I don't want this to read like an anti-strike rant – its just an example of one fan of rail travel who is losing faith.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,353
Location
Bolton
It isnt though - as shown in my previous reply - they fell for 2 consecutive quarters and the last one - Q3 they were down 12%
That's a measure of the units of output, not demand. If demand wasn't holding then real prices would be dropping rapidly, but they're not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This is more for another thread, but in short yes I agree, as the cost of fuel came down the tax should probably creep back up again, it was reduced as an emergency measure (I do agree with that measure, just not keeping it low).
It's relevant here insofar as the public's expectations about future tax policy will influence their decisions on how many cars / vans their household runs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Petrol prices are still very expensive and massively taxed
That's a value judgement though based on your emotional reaction to something. It's not a fact. Driving produces generally low variable prices per mile. Electric driving produces some very, very low variable prices per mile. The rising price of oil as its use declines and its scarcity rises means that eventually it will be impossible to buy for less than £2 per litre anyway - and at that price point people can still cope fairly easily with even just a little bit of extra revenue spending on public transport. We'll have to put the money into public transport eventually because we can't afford enough lithium for all of the current road vehicles to convert to battery, we may as well do so sooner rather than later...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No strikes announced for my Twickenham or Wembley days but I can travel by National Express straight to the stadium. I didn't want a strike to be announced and find the National Express bus was already full. So I booked National Express instead of the train. That's 3 train trips lost.
There's currently a big incentive for regular rail passengers to book NX in the first instance if they run on the route you're using, which is that they will put the price up significantly as soon as any railway strike is announced. Against this there is for long journeys sometimes a negative journey time impact, but sufficiently in advance they're almost always much cheaper.
 
Last edited:

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,970
Every passenger voluntarily making this lifestyle change won't be coming back to the railways, possibly ever. What a disappointment.
Really. On what basis can anyone make such a daft assumption. Yes, for now people will understandably be thinking this but why forever? Such Daily Express style stupidity.
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
Matlock
As with the recent thread on Saturday rail travel, I've followed this thread with interest. I also saw this mornings news item about ASLEF maybe intensifying their dispute.

I'm a regular train traveller for sporting events – in winter football and rugby union and in summer rugby league. I've just finished looking at the forthcoming fixtures. In the next couple of months I've got 2 trips to Twickenham, 1 to Wembley and regular away matches for my football club. Normally I'd do all that by train, take the opportunity for a few beers and sometimes an overnight stay. But...

No strikes announced for my Twickenham or Wembley days but I can travel by National Express straight to the stadium. I didn't want a strike to be announced and find the National Express bus was already full. So I booked National Express instead of the train. That's 3 train trips lost.

Same problem for 3 away matches for my club, if I booked the train and a strike was announced then the supporters club bus might be full. So I've booked it now, another 3 train trips lost.

Now I know I'm only one person, 6 leisure train trips won't make any difference in the overall scheme of things but I stress, I'm a regular train traveller – I really like trains. But surely there are thousands like me that are slowly losing patience.

I don't want this to read like an anti-strike rant – its just an example of one fan of rail travel who is losing faith.
If I was attending a special event then I would book NX tickets just in case there was a train strike (or lived on an Avanti or TPE route!) then on the day if the trains were running, I would buy a train ticket and put the coach ticket in the bin!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If I was attending a special event then I would book NX tickets just in case there was a train strike (or lived on an Avanti or TPE route!) then on the day if the trains were running, I would buy a train ticket and put the coach ticket in the bin!

Funnily enough I've done exactly that (I went to London on a strike day and booked an 8pm coach in case I missed the last train at about 6pm or it was so full I couldn't board, though in the event I did make it but it was tight). I could be tempted to switch to coach if they were 2+1 with decent legroom as they are in Spain, but a coach ticket here is never for me going to be anything other than an insurance policy I hope I won't have to claim on. NatEx's coaches are a bit nicer than they used to be, but it's still not in the quality travel market.
 

themeone

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
292
Once you've got a car, there's not much incentive to travel by other means, as car drivers want to get maximum use from the fixed costs of car ownership.

Once you get outside London and a couple of other big cities, most people don't find trains that useful - they're certainly not cheap, and increasingly unreliable.

I split my time between south London and south Hampshire, and the contrast is very clear. And south Hampshire probably has a better rail service than many areas outside London.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
6,197
Ah, you've experienced the joy of driving through Horsham. :lol:

The town which seems shy to adopt filter lanes at junctions, so when you approach the green light which turns amber -> red when you are 50 meters from it, you have to wait for traffic on every other arm of the junction before the light goes green again, which results in a good minute on red and sub-10 seconds on green in the worst cases, coupled with junctions so close together that traffic backing up at one junction blocks traffic trying to get through the neighbouring junction (house building and local population increases contributing to this). The net result of this for me is if I want to drive to my allotment on the other side of town and back, I have to go through ten sets of traffic lights of which typically eight of them will be on red and at least half of those I will be waiting the full red phase. If I'm unlucky I will get the sole visible pedestrian in the area wanting to use one or more of the pelican crossings when I am 100 meters away which could add another two red lights to the journey.
If you think Horsham is bad, try Cardiff! The latter frequently snarls up completely. Between Christmas and New Year, there were so many people queuing for car parks that it made driving anywhere near the city centre very difficult. The queue for the John Lewis and St Davids Car parks stretched back past the prison all the way to Longcross Street, a distance of approx 1200 metres. A separate queue went south under the railway, blocking Callaghan Square and going along Tyndall Street as far back as Central link next to Bute East Dock. Out of curiosity, which junctions in Horsham block up? Turning right off Albion Way onto the Bishopric is a pain in the neck.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,914
Last time I tried the Arriva app (a few years ago) it was as much use as a chocolate teapot. I watched a bus drive by on the opposite side of the road that, according to the app, wasn't, there.
There must be different apps. I have literally just arrived home having been out with ex workmates for a pleasant afternoon in the pub Followed by a quick check of the app to catch a bus home waiting no more than 3-4 minutes at the bus stop.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There must be different apps. I have literally just arrived home having been out with ex workmates for a pleasant afternoon in the pub Followed by a quick check of the app to catch a bus home waiting no more than 3-4 minutes at the bus stop.

The Arriva app used to have a very bad habit of wrongly extrapolating the location of a bus if it either lost GPS or hadn't departed the origin. Not sure if they fixed it or not to be honest.
 

route101

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,322
Funnily enough I've done exactly that (I went to London on a strike day and booked an 8pm coach in case I missed the last train at about 6pm or it was so full I couldn't board, though in the event I did make it but it was tight). I could be tempted to switch to coach if they were 2+1 with decent legroom as they are in Spain, but a coach ticket here is never for me going to be anything other than an insurance policy I hope I won't have to claim on. NatEx's coaches are a bit nicer than they used to be, but it's still not in the quality travel market.
With the rail strikes and Christmas its been quite hard to find coach services that weren't sold out.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
6,197
This sort of thing must be being repeated in different forms across the board. It's only because a last second decision can be made to drive to the station if all looks ok instead of straight onto the motorway that we're still trying to use the train where possible - largely out of a sense of obligation on environmental grounds. Driving + tube is no slower end-to-end, costs the same or less when all hidden costs are accounted for and is now much more reliable.
What percentage of the population gives two hoots about the environment though? Most people I know drive almost everywhere; many of them work for the railway! Granted I do know a few people that don't have a car.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,046
There is no doubt the AutoTrader have an axe to grind on this, and like all journalism its coloured by the views of those writing and the people behind them paying their wages.

There probably is an increase in demand, but I doubt that much of it is due to the current rail problems. A lot of people held off from changing their vehicle during covid for multiple reasons, and so there is undoubtably a bit of a backlog.

This doesn't detract from the fact the situation with regard to the railways isn't serious, industrial unrest, failing TOCs, and a disinterested and weak government. I personally don't believe that line closures will happen, I think that is still politically unacceptable, but service cut backs and a cutting back (off?) of investment will happen.

You cannot rely on railways at the moment over a large part of the country, and people will make alternative arrangements, bus, car, fly, etc. and this will increase demand for cars but bearing in mind the proportion of rail journeys to other modes of transport this increase will be very small, and masked by other larger impacts from other events.

There's a LOT of empty space in this country, 85% of the population live in urban areas (population of over 10,000), most of the rest likely live in places between 5,000 and 10,000.

As such why would public transport try and serve places with (say) 1,000 people or fewer when it'll never compete well?

Of course if everyone living in such places never ever used rail or would make hardly any difference to passenger numbers, even though such areas make up most of the area of the country.

I live in a rural settlement (population circa 9,000), it's surrounded by countryside with almost no one in it until the next villages, whilst one is almost abutting it, it's still for quite a lot of farmland and tiny hamlets for the next 2 miles, whilst in another direction there's a small village about 1.5 miles with a school and then it's almost 6 miles until you get to the next place with a school. That's in a location about an hour from London.


For myself this wasn't the case. I stuck with public transport for 20 years. I could drive but I hated it. I wanted to support the buses.

However over the past twenty years the once good bus service of 4 buses per hour which took 40-45 minutes end to end has deteriorated into an hourly service (when it runs) which takes over an hour from end to end. The other bus services we had to other towns (which were tendered) have all been reduced from hourly, to exactly one bus there in the morning and one bus back in the evening.

The bus companies have left us high and dry, the nearest train station that I used was reached by using one of those withdrawn tendered services. So the knock on effect was that I also stopped using the train because the nearest station been four miles away is too far to walk to.

So finally in frustration, I've given up and bought a car. Once the car was bought and insured, it's proved cheaper to run and far more convenient.

I won't be using the buses again.

Which is why cutting public transport is a foolish way of trying to save money, as if many did that or urban areas would grind to a halt. However whilst there's a lot of the UK which is rural, there's still a need for some bits and rail services to serve them.

Counterpoint: new car sales at 30 year low https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64165689

Indeed with a drop in new car sales of 75% compared to pre Covid levels there's a risk that car purchasing is going to be expensive due some time (just 6 years of that with 1% year on year growth in car numbers and to get the average age of cars back you need to add 17.5% more cars to the fleet).

I think the unions are cutting their own necks. The government are warning a whole generation could be put off rail travel.
At the end of the day rail travel is heavily subsidised by the tax payer, it is, to a large extent, a public service and is not a free market business like most others. Rail employees are by and large well paid, we are all having to tighten our belts and most of us do not have the option to go on strike for more money anyway. Our only choice if we're unhappy with our wage is go and get another job !

Pre Covid railway support was about £7bn, circa £1bn of loan costs (which would be needed even if the railways didn't exist), £3.2bn was for enhancements print out at about £3bn.

If we could close the railways, we'd need to spend a significant amount more on road improvements so that goods could still get about without significant extra delays.

The best way to reduce the gap between income/expenditure is to do the trains, maybe with some targeted cuts, however a blanket arbitrary 10% off may actually harm the economy so much that it actually costs the government more.

This is certainly true in not negotiating with those striking (chances are an extra 1/2 a percent or less of a change in conditions could be enough to bring it to the end.

Especially where TOC's are insulated from loses from the strikes, this means that the level of government support is likely to be higher than it needs to be as there's fewer people paying to use the railways. This is then made worse by people being put off using rail.

However rail use in the last 12 months matched 2009, rolling forwards the last 6 months matches 2011, a 5% increase in each of the next 2 quarters would bring the year total to 2012, maybe even 2013.

Without strikes we could even see rail use higher still.
 

miklcct

Established Member
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
5,017
Location
Cricklewood
However whilst there's a lot of the UK which is rural, there's still a need for some bits and rail services to serve them.
Rail is not an efficient form of transport in rural areas. These areas should be served by a minibus.
 

Class 317

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2020
Messages
577
Location
Cotswolds
Just to answer questions about most people driving 1 in 4 adults does not hold a driving license.

Forget the exact figure but it's 70 something percentage that have a license.
 

XIX7007177

Member
Joined
6 Jun 2018
Messages
85
Basically they are making an assumption to back up a political narrative.

Don’t remember being asked why I’m buying a car by any dealership.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,832
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Just to answer questions about most people driving 1 in 4 adults does not hold a driving license.

Forget the exact figure but it's 70 something percentage that have a license.

To be fair I would more say that most households have a car. It still isn't unusual for only one of the couple (often the man) to drive, and some younger people haven't got round to it yet.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
8,280
Once you've got a car, there's not much incentive to travel by other means, as car drivers want to get maximum use from the fixed costs of car ownership.
Not really, as it depends on the journey. For some journeys the car makes sense, for others it's less attractive. Congestion, parking, the desire for a drink all play a part in the decision. Plus the quality and cost of the public transport alternative.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top