Big Four Centenary 1-1-23

[matchmaker]

The 3 mile long Killin Railway resisted being absorbed into the LMS for several months, until a better offer was made for their shares.

 

[Gloster]

I understand the GWR didn't "take over" the WC&P, which was in receivership anyway, but only bought from the receiver the operational assets, track and rolling stock. What they were really after of course at a time of national shortages was the rails, to be used as sidings indeed, just not there, so they were lifted. It would have been an inconvenient place to store wagons anyway, as I think the only rail connection was round the back of the GWR goods shed at Clevedon, not at the two termini, and it was of course full of minor level crossings which wagons could not be stored across. . The land was sold off separately by the receiver.

The two Terrier locos, long derelict, were somewhat extraordinarily taken to Swindon and rebuilt. They would have been better just given to the Southern, who would have the right parts for them.

There is an article called ‘A close run thing’ on the colonelstephenssociety.co.uk which reveals just how shambolic the whole situation was. Sorry, I can’t do a link, but the Weston Clevedon Topics on the site map will find it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2023 ==

The 3 mile long Killin Railway resisted being absorbed into the LMS for several months, until a better offer was made for their shares.

I believe that there was also the matter of the directors holding out for better free travel facilities.

 

[Calthrop]

The GWR paid £10,000, for which they got two working locos and a lot of scrap metal. They didn’t get most of the land it was built on or, so it seems, the track itself. It seems that no more than 200 coal wagons were stored on it.

I understand the GWR didn't "take over" the WC&P, which was in receivership anyway, but only bought from the receiver the operational assets, track and rolling stock. What they were really after of course at a time of national shortages was the rails, to be used as sidings indeed, just not there, so they were lifted. It would have been an inconvenient place to store wagons anyway, as I think the only rail connection was round the back of the GWR goods shed at Clevedon, not at the two termini, and it was of course full of minor level crossings which wagons could not be stored across. . The land was sold off separately by the receiver.

The two Terrier locos, long derelict, were somewhat extraordinarily taken to Swindon and rebuilt. They would have been better just given to the Southern, who would have the right parts for them.

There is an article called ‘A close run thing’ on the colonelstephenssociety.co.uk which reveals just how shambolic the whole situation was. Sorry, I can’t do a link, but the Weston Clevedon Topics on the site map will find it.

Thanks, gentlemen, for the above -- reveals indeed, a more complex situation than just straight "post-mortem absorbing". However -- as per yours, @Gloster, just above -- all a somewhat eccentric business, "of a piece" with the generally rather crazy world of Colonel Stephens -- also, things in general were a bit unusual and turbulent, at that particular time in history.

The Colonel Stephens Society is grand, for all manner of info about the gentleman and his light-railway "empire": its journal, sent to members several times a year, is in my opinion well worth the Society's modest subscription.

 

[Taunton]

A bit of WC&P Stevens-style "homebuilt", which will have come onto the GWR asset register at some dubious value, maybe £1. I really just can't look at it without laughing.

 

[Gloster]

Two entries in the pdf of companies nationalised in 1948 (#20) that I find curious are Shrewsbury & Hereford and the West Cornwall Railways. The latter passed jointly to the GWR and LNWR in 1871, which might be part of the explanation, while the latter disappeared into the GWR in 1866 and there could have been complications due to the Hayle Railway. However, I expect that the most likely reason is that there were still shares held by people who had refused to sell in the past or who were untraceable: an Act of Parliament would be necessary to take these shares out of circulation.

 

[Revaulx]

The CLC gave them and the Midland and GCR access to Liverpool and its docks. GNR access to Manchester was over Woodhead via the GCR/MSL.

I was thinking of access to the GN goods warehouse next to Manchester Central.

I’m not sure how much of the traffic westwards onto Liverpool had GN origins. I would imagine very little; certainly in comparison to the GC and Midland.

 

[Gloster]

In the latest HMRS newsletter is an item from the January 1923 Railway Magazine, which probably went to press in early to mid-December 1922. It strongly suggests that the choice of names for the SR and LNER had been settled sometime before (the GWR‘s was in the Act, apparently), but that that of the LMS was only agreed relatively late.

 

[Trainlog]

In the latest HMRS newsletter is an item from the January 1923 Railway Magazine, which probably went to press in early to mid-December 1922. It strongly suggests that the choice of names for the SR and LNER had been settled sometime before (the GWR‘s was in the Act, apparently), but that that of the LMS was only agreed relatively late.

Out of curiosity what where the alternative names for the LMS in the running before it was settled?

 

[Gloster]

Out of curiosity what where the alternative names for the LMS in the running before it was settled?

There was no information on that.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The MR took it over in 1912.

And, despite the fact that Plaistow and its other sheds were nominally in the Eastern Region, the locomotives, or at least the 3-cylinder 2-6-4Ts, were overhauled at Derby up to 1960 and I strongly suspect, to the very end of their working lives. This would have been, at a guess, up to the end of 1961.

 

[Taunton]

Two entries in the pdf of companies nationalised in 1948 (#20) that I find curious are Shrewsbury & Hereford ... passed jointly to the GWR and LNWR in 1871,

The Shrewsbury & Hereford would be no different to various others in the list, like for example the entry above, the Hammersmith & City (GWR/Metropolitan joint). Such companies might have their shares (which are the key elements of corporate ownership here) bought out by two, or more, railway companies, but legally remained an independent company with its own accounts until 1923. There might be some other minority shareholders as well. Historical railway accounts do not normally pick up the nitty-gritty detail of mergers etc unless it is relevant. Some may have a legal agreement between the owners and railway companies to operate them but not own them. The CLC owned its own carriages, but the Great Central (just one of its three equal owners) provided all the locomotives. There was no standard arrangement, each was unique. Major railways, being some of the largest industrial enterprises of their era, were thus also some of the largest corporate tax contributors (how times change), and a number of the arrangements would reflect tax minimisation.

Anyone who has experience of major construction companies who do 'joint venture' contracts, such as the whole series which were done all along Crossrail, will know that they are actually formed up as separate limited companies, with whatever share divisions are required, each different and keeping an office-full of lawyers occupied each time a major project starts. At the operational level they may divide the tasks up between themselves - "you do the accountants and I'll do the surveyors". No different to onetime joint railways - "you do the locomotives and I'll do the S&T".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of curiosity what where the alternative names for the LMS in the running before it was settled?

My LNWR history gives the following (which began with an initial merger agreement between the LNWR and Midland):
Midland and North Western
London, Midland and North Western
London, Midland and Northern
and eventually LM&S

The official grouping title was: North Western, Midland and West Scottish Group.
The eventual merger agreement for 1 Jan 1923 included the LNWR (which had just absorbed the L&Y), Midland, Furness, G&SW and Highland railways.
The inclusion of the Caledonian and North Staffs was delayed well into 1923 for statutory reasons.