Big Four Centenary 1-1-23

[32475]

Today marks the centenary of the birth of the Big Four (GWR, LMS, LNER and SR) so I propose a raised glass to their memory!
Meanwhile, I’m intrigued to know how the new companies made their various transitions especially in terms of publicity, graphic design (for posters, signage etc). I imagine that if you take the Southern for example, the powers that be looked at its main constituent companies (SECR, LBSCR and LSWR) and decided which of those had the best attributes. Design would have been a bit random to start with until a strong corporate design image was developed such as the letter font, the target sign and so on.
I’m interested to know the thoughts and opinions of others.

 

[Ken H]

Today marks the centenary of the birth of the Big Four (GWR, LMS, LNER and SR) so I propose a raised glass to their memory!
Meanwhile, I’m intrigued to know how the new companies made their various transitions especially in terms of publicity, graphic design (for posters, signage etc). I imagine that if you take the Southern for example, the powers that be looked at its main constituent companies (SECR, LBSCR and LSWR) and decided which of those had the best attributes. Design would have been a bit random to start with until a strong corporate design image was developed such as the letter font, the target sign and so on.
I’m interested to know the thoughts and opinions of others.

Didnt the LSWR become the main player? their 3rd rail won over the LBSCR overhead.

I think old scores were settled. The west coast was seen as the 'main line' by the LMS, and the midland seen as secondary, for instance.

 

[gabrielhj07]

LNER have a released a video celebrating this anniversary.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The LNER was a lot more than today's TOC operation of the same name.
GN, GC, GE, NE, NB and other smaller constituents are all entitled to the same LNER heritage.
The old LNER also owned two-thirds of the CLC and half of the M&GN and other joint lines, and even served Wrexham in Wales.
As a final thought, the railways have been (partially) privatised for longer than the 25 years of the Big 4.

 

[Gloster]

Well, for two or three of them it was very much a case of just carry on, at least for a while. At the LMS it was a case of ‘the right way is the Derby way’, while on the GWR it was really only a matter of absorbing and Swindonising some lesser lines. I am not very knowledgeable about the LNER, but suspect that the GNR was the strongest influence. The SR is a bit more complicated, but I suspect that it was a balancing up of the influences of the SECR, which had become the most forward looking line, and the, LSWR, the largest. The LBSCR may not have been particularly influential.

Some things would have been sorted out in advance: rolling-stock and building colour schemes, uniforms, printing styles, etc. However, there wasn’t the same throwaway society as today and anything still usuable would be retained: forms and letter heads with the pre-grouping companies‘ names continued to be used for years with the old name either scribbled out or overstamped. Uniforms would be worn until they were due for replacement and equipment would be retained until it wore out. Why spend money replacing items that still had years of life in them?

The modern habit of stamping your company identity on to the business the moment you take over was rare, although it did exist. Changes would work their way through, but they probably quickly worked out which were the priorities.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The GWR, of course, just supremely carried on, because for them it was just a takeover of the much smaller companies rather than the difficult mergers of the other Big Four. It did make an early start, however, at weeding out the locomotive stock of the South Wales companies and closing some of the duplicate routes. Parts of the expensively and recently built Barry Railway went early on, as did the Rhymney Rlys Cardiff Parade station.

 

[Joe Paxton]

LNER have a released a video celebrating this anniversary.

Jago Hazzard has released a short video explainer: The Big Four.

 

[Revaulx]

It’s worth remembering that the Government, who were so keen to force companies to merge in the early ‘20s, blocked the proposed merger of the GN, GE and GC little more than a decade earlier.

From experience of other industries in recentish years (big accountancy firms, oil companies) I’m pretty certain that had it gone ahead it would have initiated a rush of other mergers. Some small but fiercely independent companies are likely to have held out until forced by financial necessity (North Staffs, Highland, some of the Welsh ones), but had the Midland absorbed the GSW it’s hard to see the Caley and NB not taking refuge in the bosom of the LNW and NE.

 

[Trainlog]

The thing i like to remember is what the companies left behind on their mainlines structure-wise. In the former Southern region its always quite fun on the mainlines to watch out for the lineside material such as their iconic concrete structures in the forms of lineside huts, Fences, substations, footbridges, and the stations they built in the companies brief 25 year existence.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The thing i like to remember is what the companies left behind on their mainlines structure-wise. In the former Southern region its always quite fun on the mainlines to watch out for the lineside material such as their iconic concrete structures in the forms of lineside huts, Fences, substations, footbridges, and the stations they built in the companies brief 25 year existence.

I quite like the LSWR stained glass at Waterloo.

 

[Snow1964]

The thing i like to remember is what the companies left behind on their mainlines structure-wise. In the former Southern region its always quite fun on the mainlines to watch out for the lineside material such as their iconic concrete structures in the forms of lineside huts, Fences, substations, footbridges, and the stations they built in the companies brief 25 year existence.

The Southern had whole series of station styles, the earliest ones were those replacing separate stations (Ramsgate, Leatherhead etc), through the Art Deco, to the functional (like Pokesdown)

Didn’t all the concrete structures, get made in a giant precasting factory near Exmouth Junction?

 

[StephenHunter]

The LTS line ended up in LMS hands due to the Midland Railway owning it, right?

 

[pdeaves]

The LTS line ended up in LMS hands due to the Midland Railway owning it, right?

Right.


===

Some 'big four' mergers actually took place a year earlier than the oft-quoted 1 January 1923 date (Taff Vale being one of several examples).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

There’s an excellent summary of the Grouping plus examples of how the Grouping immediately affected tickets in the current Transport Ticket Society’s current Journal. Thoroughly recommend it.

 

[Trainlog]

The Southern had whole series of station styles, the earliest ones were those replacing separate stations (Ramsgate, Leatherhead etc), through the Art Deco, to the functional (like Pokesdown)

Didn’t all the concrete structures, get made in a giant precasting factory near Exmouth Junction?

Its only in the Station hall itself, but the neat thing about Ramsgate is that its painted in its original SR colours.

 

[Gloster]

I think the last to go in was the mid Suffolk Light Railway on 1 July 1924.

Some 'big four' mergers actually took place a year earlier than the oft-quoted 1 January 1923 date (Taff Vale being one of several examples).

The Lancashire & Yorkshire was absorbed by the London & North Western on 1 January 1922.

The LTS line ended up in LMS hands due to the Midland Railway owning it, right?

The MR took it over in 1912.

 

[Taunton]

The thing i like to remember is what the companies left behind on their mainlines structure-wise. In the former Southern region its always quite fun on the mainlines to watch out for the lineside material such as their iconic concrete structures in the forms of lineside huts, Fences, substations, footbridges, and the stations they built in the companies brief 25 year existence.

A lot of the smaller concrete structures that remain on the Southern were actually manufactured long into BR times, at the former Southern concrete works at Exmouth Junction. They even extended them over some regional transfers, such as the 1960s footbridge on the ex-Western Region line at Maiden Newton (ruining the fine Dorset ragstone station building ...). The Western had a comparable concrete works (at Taunton!), but the Southern developed a prefabricated concrete panel style that could be kept in store and slotted together in different combinations.

 

[Springs Branch]

One aspect of the 1923 Grouping which is sometimes not widely appreciated is that not all of the pre-WW1 railway companies were merged into the Big Four.

Some companies (I've seen a figure of around 50 mentioned) continued with varying degrees of independence up until nationalisation. Is this figure true? (a handy fact to have on-hand for the Railway Pub Quiz night).

Presumably the independent survivors were mostly small and niche operations with specialised sphere of operations. The Mersey Railway between Liverpool Central L.L. and Birkenhead Park / Rock Ferry comes to mind.

Also, the CLC between the Manchester area and Liverpool / Southport / Chester, which was nominally independent, but its directors were appointed by the LNER & LMS and it relied on the Big Four to provide its motive power. Was the CLC the largest or busiest operation to avoid Grouping in 1923?

 

[Taunton]

The CLC was undoubtedly the busiest joint line by ton-mile/passenger mile, but the S&D or M&GN may have had more route mileage. There was the Met&GC as well, and some others. I suspect these various joint arrangements form a significant part of the "50". Even the Forth Bridge company. That is an interesting one, for the Midland Railway share gave the LMS 30% of the ownership of the bridge, yet the LMS (and indeed the Midland before them) never seem to have run trains over it. The Great Northern's one-third share of the CLC, far removed from the rest of their system, likewise seems to have carried few if any of their trains.

Often not realised is the 1923 grouping also tidied up a considerable number of independent lines which had been worked, often since opening, by another major company. For example, the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton had never appeared to be anything other than a GWR line, but was a separate company with its own directors who received whatever was left over in the accounts after the running expenditure by the GW was met. Sometimes by 1923 there was none, but the London & Blackwall, a pioneer London line, who had over time built Fenchurch Street station and the various lines outwards, had long got the Great Eastern to run much of their traffic, and was well used by the LT&S as well. The financial arrangements were such that it was a very profitable business for doing very little themselves.

 

[oldman]

Some companies (I've seen a figure of around 50 mentioned) continued with varying degrees of independence up until nationalisation. Is this figure true?

The Transport Act 1947 (pdf) (pp145-146) lists all the bodies which were taken over at nationalisation, including joint railways and joint committees of the big four. As well as the well-known (e.g. CLC, Somerset and Dorset) there were the likes of The Dundee and Arbroath Joint Railway, The Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne and Guide Bridge Junction Railway Company, The Shrewsbury and Hereford Railway, The Halifax High Level Joint Committee, and many more.

There must have been agreements between the big four owners about operations and infrastructure etc., but no one thought it worthwhile to rationalise the ownership structures.
Wikipedia has an article which links to lists of companies absorbed by the big four as well as railways not included in the grouping.

 

[Ken H]

The Transport Act 1947 (pdf) (pp145-146) lists all the bodies which were taken over at nationalisation, including joint railways and joint committees of the big four. As well as the well-known (e.g. CLC, Somerset and Dorset) there were the likes of The Dundee and Arbroath Joint Railway, The Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne and Guide Bridge Junction Railway Company, The Shrewsbury and Hereford Railway, The Halifax High Level Joint Committee, and many more.

There must have been agreements between the big four owners about operations and infrastructure etc., but no one thought it worthwhile to rationalise the ownership structures.
Wikipedia has an article which links to lists of companies absorbed by the big four as well as railways not included in the grouping.

Were undertakings like the joint omnibus committees in Yorkshire included?

 

[Revaulx]

The CLC was undoubtedly the busiest joint line by ton-mile/passenger mile, but the S&D or M&GN may have had more route mileage. There was the Met&GC as well, and some others. I suspect these various joint arrangements form a significant part of the "50". Even the Forth Bridge company. That is an interesting one, for the Midland Railway share gave the LMS 30% of the ownership of the bridge, yet the LMS (and indeed the Midland before them) never seem to have run trains over it. The Great Northern's one-third share of the CLC, far removed from the rest of their system, likewise seems to have carried few if any of their trains.

Often not realised is the 1923 grouping also tidied up a considerable number of independent lines which had been worked, often since opening, by another major company. For example, the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton had never appeared to be anything other than a GWR line, but was a separate company with its own directors who received whatever was left over in the accounts after the running expenditure by the GW was met. Sometimes by 1923 there was none, but the London & Blackwall, a pioneer London line, who had over time built Fenchurch Street station and the various lines outwards, had long got the Great Eastern to run much of their traffic, and was well used by the LT&S as well. The financial arrangements were such that it was a very profitable business for doing very little themselves.

That’s a really interesting post.

Of all the major companies that weren’t run by megalomaniacs (Watkin), the GN seemed to be the most profligate. The eye-wateringly expensive Queensbury Lines were a basket case from the start, their contribution towards the costs of Nottingham Victoria was out of all proportion to the benefits, and the less said about Leicester Belgrave Road the better.

Despite all that, they balked at the CLC’s Widnes loop and refused to have any part in it, so it became a GC/Midland exclave. Their share in the CLC did at least give them access to Manchester, where they built a spectacular (and surviving) goods depot in the early 20th century.

 

[Gloster]

Additionally, the Corris and the Weston, Clevedon & Portishead were taken over by the GWR in 1930 and 1940.

 

[kylemore]

I often wonder what would have transpired if instead of establishing British Railways in 1948 the Govt had simply bought up all the shares in the LMS, LNER, GWR and SR and just let the respective managements get on with it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Despite all that, they balked at the CLC’s Widnes loop and refused to have any part in it, so it became a GC/Midland exclave. Their share in the CLC did at least give them access to Manchester, where they built a spectacular (and surviving) goods depot in the early 20th century.

Curiously, the GN brand has a higher profile today in Manchester than the more powerful LNWR, thanks, as you say, to the prominent Great Northern centre off Deansgate.
The Great Northern name is also splashed (with Great Central and Midland) on old CLC warehouse buildings east of Warrington Central station.
The Midland Hotel is another prominent relic of that railway in Manchester.
For an explicitly LNWR relic, you have to be looking east out of the window between Manchester and Stockport to see their long name on their old warehouse near Heaton Norris.
Plus, of course, North Western station in Wigan.

 

[Calthrop]

Additionally, the Corris and the Weston, Clevedon & Portishead were taken over by the GWR in 1930 and 1940.

(My bolding) -- this particular episode strikes me as delightfully daft: in that the GWR took over the WC&P immediately after the latter's closing to all traffic -- seemingly, with thoughts of using it for wagon storage, which scheme didn't work out; the GW lifted the line's track throughout, during the early 1940s.

 

[oldman]

Their share in the CLC did at least give them access to Manchester

The CLC gave them and the Midland and GCR access to Liverpool and its docks. GNR access to Manchester was over Woodhead via the GCR/MSL.

 

[edwin_m]

The GWR, of course, just supremely carried on, because for them it was just a takeover of the much smaller companies rather than the difficult mergers of the other Big Four. It did make an early start, however, at weeding out the locomotive stock of the South Wales companies and closing some of the duplicate routes. Parts of the expensively and recently built Barry Railway went early on, as did the Rhymney Rlys Cardiff Parade station.

Didn't the GWR actually carry on as the same legal entity - so it wasn't such a significant event for them? I assume the other three were new companies in the legal sense, not just re-naming one of the old ones and amalgamating the others into it.

It’s worth remembering that the Government, who were so keen to force companies to merge in the early ‘20s, blocked the proposed merger of the GN, GE and GC little more than a decade earlier.

That decade included WW1, when railway operations were centralised under government control. I suspect this experience led to a belief that the railways needed to be less fragmented.

 

[Gloster]

(My bolding) -- this particular episode strikes me as delightfully daft: in that the GWR took over the WC&P immediately after the latter's closing to all traffic -- seemingly, with thoughts of using it for wagon storage, which scheme didn't work out; the GW lifted the line's track throughout, during the early 1940s.

The GWR paid £10,000, for which they got two working locos and a lot of scrap metal. They didn’t get most of the land it was built on or, so it seems, the track itself. It seems that no more than 200 coal wagons were stored on it.

 

[Taunton]

(My bolding) -- this particular episode strikes me as delightfully daft: in that the GWR took over the WC&P immediately after the latter's closing to all traffic

I understand the GWR didn't "take over" the WC&P, which was in receivership anyway, but only bought from the receiver the operational assets, track and rolling stock. What they were really after of course at a time of national shortages was the rails, to be used as sidings indeed, just not there, so they were lifted. It would have been an inconvenient place to store wagons anyway, as I think the only rail connection was round the back of the GWR goods shed at Clevedon, not at the two termini, and it was of course full of minor level crossings which wagons could not be stored across. . The land was sold off separately by the receiver.

The two Terrier locos, long derelict, were somewhat extraordinarily taken to Swindon and rebuilt. They would have been better just given to the Southern, who would have the right parts for them.