TPE attempted to charge me penalty fare

[Aaron1]

Hi,
So I got the EMR service from Grimsby Docks to Grimsby Town station today, Grimsby Docks station does not have a ticket machine nor a ticket office, so once onboard I approached the conductor to buy my ticket, it was at that point he told me not to worry about it as it is only a couple of quid.

When I got off at Grimsby I got approached by TPE revenue protection officers who tried to charge me a penalty fare, I explained to them that I boarded the service at Grimsby Docks station which is an EMR station only with no ticket buying facilities and the conductor on board told me not to worry about buying a ticket, also EMR do not operate penalty fares between these stations, the TPE revenue protection officer told me that he is allowed to charge penalty fares on behalf of other TOCs, despite the fact I travelled on EMR service and they don't operate such scheme on that route.

I refused to give my name and walked away from him.

I suspect he is just making it up but could somebody please clarify if a TPE revenue protection officer is permitted to attempt to charge penalty fares on EMR behalf even if they do not operate such scheme?

I did find the conductor and attempted to purchase ticket in which he said don't worry about it and the TPE revenue officer didn't even give me a chance to buy said ticket, he tried to jump straight to penalty fare hence why I just walked off.

Please could somebody clarify as can't find anything online about other TOCs being able to charge penalty fares on behalf of other TOC if they don't operate a scheme!

 

[yorkie]

TPE are not allowed to do this; you did the right thing by refusing to comply with their demands.

I would write a strongly worded complaint to TPE but I would not say what the conductor said; simply say that there was no opportunity to buy a ticket.

The only obligation is to buy a ticket at the regular price, if the destination if the ticket office is open or there is any member of staff there who is able to issue tickets, such as revenue collectors (this can be of any company). They cannot charge more than the appropriate fare, including any relevant railcards held.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place and there is insufficient mystery shopping taking place to detect, let alone do anything about staff who mistreat and/or overcharge customers. There is no ombudsman with any teeth who would take any interest in this. There is no regulator who wants to get involved. And, well, I could go on...

You could also write to your MP, but maybe see what TPE say first.

I can't see anything changing; who is going to make companies like TPE behave? (that's a rhetorical question, in case anyone is in any doubt!)

 

[Aaron1]

TPE are not allowed to do this; you did the right thing by refusing to comply with their demands.

I would write a strongly worded complaint to TPE but I would not say what the conductor said; simply say that there was no opportunity to buy a ticket.

The only obligation is to buy a ticket at the regular price, if the destination if the ticket office is open or there is any member of staff there who is able to issue tickets, such as revenue collectors (this can be of any company). They cannot charge more than the appropriate fare, including any relevant railcards held.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place and there is insufficient mystery shopping taking place to detect, let alone do anything about staff who mistreat and/or overcharge customers. There is no ombudsman with any teeth who would take any interest in this. There is no regulator who wants to get involved. And, well, I could go on...

You could also write to your MP, but maybe see what TPE say first.

I can't see anything changing; who is going to make companies like TPE behave? (that's a rhetorical question, in case anyone is in any doubt!)

I thought as much thanks.

I did offer to buy a ticket from the revenue protection officer but he told me he had no alternative but to charge me penalty fare, and he would not listen to reason so I made the decision to walk away from him. Will complain to TPE but that won't go very far, I'll just let it go this once.

 

[yorkie]

Do let us know what they say. If their response is dire, I'd be up for taking this further.

 

[driverd]

TPE are not allowed to do this; you did the right thing by refusing to comply with their demands.

I would write a strongly worded complaint to TPE but I would not say what the conductor said; simply say that there was no opportunity to buy a ticket.

The only obligation is to buy a ticket at the regular price, if the destination if the ticket office is open or there is any member of staff there who is able to issue tickets, such as revenue collectors (this can be of any company). They cannot charge more than the appropriate fare, including any relevant railcards held.

So just a quick question for clarification here. It appears the NRCoC has been revised lately but I would assume this whole situation is covered by clause 6.1. Specifically (whilst not meeting the wording exactly), is the conductor giving verbal permission to travel also covered by clause 6.1.2?

It's always an issue (I've found) in the industry that revenue staff who are of a more laisse faire mentality will verbally authorise deviation from ticketing policy, only for customers to come unstuck with more by the book colleagues. Surely (and whilst this is massively open to abuse), the T&Cs make it the case that the onus of proof of such a dispensation not being granted lies with the TOC? Thus, until proven otherwise, a customer who claims they were given specific authority for ticketless/invalid ticket travel should be taken to be telling the truth (its certainly how I enforced it when in a revenue grade, though I understand we now live in a different world).

 

[DaventryRabbit]

I thought as much thanks.

I did offer to buy a ticket from the revenue protection officer but he told me he had no alternative but to charge me penalty fare, and he would not listen to reason so I made the decision to walk away from him. Will complain to TPE but that won't go very far, I'll just let it go this once.

I am in no way an expert but:
How often do TPE Do Manual Checks at Grimsby? In other words were you just incredibly unlucky in so far as the EMR Conductor thought he was doing you a favour by saying "nah don't worry about it mate" and then by sheer bad luck you encounter a 'Grip'?
Or another school of thought is that the EMR Guy KNEW there was a Block on at Grimsby and decided to be a bit spiteful by waving away your money knowing you would get PF'd and not really be able to contest it

In defence of Revenue Staff they must hear the "I only got on at the last stop (literally not far down the road) and the guard didn't appear/said not to worry about it..." ALL THE TIME and so their natural reaction when they hear this is to just assume that the passenger is trying it on having travelled from a lot further

I totally agree it is an impossible situation to manage/mitigate and is a total Minefield for both sides. I don't see an easy solution...

 

[yorkie]

Or another school of thought is that the EMR Guy KNEW there was a Block on at Grimsby and decided to be a bit spiteful by waving away your money knowing you would get PF'd and not really be able to contest it

No chance

In defence of Revenue Staff they must hear the "I only got on at the last stop (literally not far down the road) and the guard didn't appear/said not to worry about it..." ALL THE TIME and so their natural reaction when they hear this is to just assume that the passenger is trying it on having travelled from a lot further

There is no defence for the way these TPE staff have behaved.

I totally agree it is an impossible situation to manage/mitigate and is a total Minefield for both sides. I don't see an easy solution...

The company needs to hire the right people, give adequate training and implement appropriate safeguards and checks to ensure staff are not acting in the manner described.

 

[RPI]

In a nutshell, if your version of events is correct then you were not liable to a Penalty Fare and should just have been charged the price of the applicable fare, which you say you offered to pay.

The EMR guard doesn't actually have the right to give you free travel without issuing you with the relevant authority to travel-but thats irrelevant as you've done everything that you are expected to have done.

 

[yorkie]

So just a quick question for clarification here. It appears the NRCoC has been revised lately but I would assume this whole situation is covered by clause 6.1. Specifically (whilst not meeting the wording exactly), is the conductor giving verbal permission to travel also covered by clause 6.1.2?

It could be inferred that the Guard has issued authority to travel without charge but I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole and it was wise that the OP offered to pay the appropriate fare (but not more than that).

Guards may not always be willing/able to issue fares for short hops between close stations; they may have other duties to perform (I don't wish to go off topic but I will point out it is completely different to the situation on trains with dedicated revenue staff who are not needing to be carrying out particular duties and/or be in particular parts of the trains at stations, such as on Scotrail Stathclyde services)

It's always an issue (I've found) in the industry that revenue staff who are of a more laisse faire mentality will verbally authorise deviation from ticketing policy, only for customers to come unstuck with more by the book colleagues. Surely (and whilst this is massively open to abuse), the T&Cs make it the case that the onus of proof of such a dispensation not being granted lies with the TOC? Thus, until proven otherwise, a customer who claims they were given specific authority for ticketless/invalid ticket travel should be taken to be telling the truth (its certainly how I enforced it when in a revenue grade, though I understand we now live in a different world).

In this particular case it's not really relevant what the Guard said because the OP is not contesting that they are liable for the appropriate fare, and the TPE staff chose not to charge the appropriate fare, so it's a moot point.

However it could have become an interesting debate if TPE had attempted to collect the appropriate fare (which they did not) and if the OP had refused to pay it (which they did not) but I will leave that theoretical debate alone.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The EMR guard doesn't actually have the right to give you free travel without issuing you with the relevant authority to travel-but thats irrelevant as you've done everything that you are expected to have done.

Sure, but whether right or wrong, if a member of staff permits a member of public to do something, and another member of staff later takes issue with that, that is something that the second member of staff must take up with their colleague, not the customer. The customer has followed direction from staff and should not be penalised for that.

 

[RPI]

Sure, but whether right or wrong, if a member of staff permits a member of public to do something, and another member of staff later takes issue with that, that is something that the second member of staff must take up with their colleague, not the customer. The customer has followed direction from staff and should not be penalised for that.

I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is that all that is legally required in this situation is payment of the applicable fare and that the OP has complied with all their obligations.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm not disagreeing with you, all I'm saying is that all that is legally required in this situation is payment of the applicable fare and that the OP has complied with all their obligations.

Oh I know, I'm just highlighting the unfairness of situations where staff member A tells an unknowing member of the public they may do something, only for staff member B to fine/penalty them. I believe there was a recent situation on GWR LTV/Cotswold route brought to the forum's attention.

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh I know, I'm just highlighting the unfairness of situations where staff member A tells an unknowing member of the public they may do something, only for staff member B to fine/penalty them. I believe there was a recent situation on GWR LTV/Cotswold route brought to the forum's attention.

Also the one that reached a good result today where the passenger was told he could sort his TOD problem out when he got to Waterloo, but that meant passing a barrier, which led to a potential court case. Case withdrawn apparently because the court queried it: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...being-able-to-print-ticket-at-station.240987/

 

[Starmill]

The TPE staff were wrong to ask you to pay a Penalty Fare, and they put themselves at risk of increased conflict by doing that. For their own sake as much as the moral authority here, I wish they would be more careful.

They are authorised collectors for the purposes of Penalty Fares, but by definition therefore they should know which stations Penalty Fares apply to and that Grimsby Docks is not one of them. It's hardly difficult and it's not going to be that rare for someone to arrive on the train from there.

 

[sheff1]

They are authorised collectors for the purposes of Penalty Fares, but by definition therefore they should know which stations Penalty Fares apply to and that Grimsby Docks is not one of them. It's hardly difficult and it's not going to be that rare for someone to arrive on the train from there.

Hardly difficult indeed, but seemingly too difficult for this "authorised collector".

A person who cannot understand such a simple matter should not be authorised to collect anything.

 

[yorkie]

Sure, but whether right or wrong, if a member of staff permits a member of public to do something, and another member of staff later takes issue with that, that is something that the second member of staff must take up with their colleague, not the customer. The customer has followed direction from staff and should not be penalised for that.

This isn't actually relevant to this particular case; it could have been relevant if the OP had been requested to pay the appropriate fare (TPE declined to actually do so) and if the OP had refused to pay it (in fact the OP offered to pay it).

As neither of these were true, it's a moot point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2022 ==

Hardly difficult indeed, but seemingly too difficult for this "authorised collector".

A person who cannot understand such a simple matter should not be authorised to collect anything.

If only appropriate safeguards and monitoring were in place across the industry. I'd gladly do it! (probably just one day a week, mind; I have other things I wouldn't want to give up!) But it's not in the TOCs interests to have suitable measures, protections and monitoring in place.

And no regulator / ombudsman / passenger watchdog is ever going to either have the desire or the clout to change that.

 

[Watershed]

The EMR guard doesn't actually have the right to give you free travel without issuing you with the relevant authority to travel-but thats irrelevant as you've done everything that you are expected to have done.

That may be the employer's policy - but from the passenger's viewpoint, if they are told they do not need to pay, that is the end of the matter.

In the circumstances described by the OP, the lack of ticketing facilities and PF signage constitute a defence to any Byelaw 18 prosecution or Penalty Fare, section 5(3)(a) doesn't apply as the passenger had every intention of paying but was told they didn't need to, and the principle of promissory estoppel would give rise to a defence to any civil claim for the fare itself.

Having been in a similar situation before, all I can say is that you do comply with illegitimate demands from the RPIs, you may well find yourself needing to take legal action to recover what you're owed.

 

[Birmingham]

believe there was a recent situation on GWR LTV/Cotswold route brought to the forum's attention.

Do you have a source for that please?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do you have a source for that please?

Local Press Story today - “Woman fined at Worcester Foregate despite paying for ticket”

This is from the Worcester News. Will be interested to here the sage opinions from those here with knowledge of the regulations etc: https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/23135276.woman-fined-worcester-foregate-despite-paying-ticket/ A woman has spoken of her 'distress' after being...

www.railforums.co.uk

I wish you happy reading

 

[Kite159]

A source for seeing a thread on this forum, why, do you think I’m making it up?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/local-press-story-today-“woman-fined-at-worcester-foregate-despite-paying-for-ticket”.239859/#post-5945839

I wish you happy reading

Ah the lady who purchased a ticket when she saw the guard coming through to check tickets and panicked when it didn't download for a revenue block at Worcester

 

[CentralTrainer]

Ah the lady who purchased a ticket when she saw the guard coming through to check tickets and panicked when it didn't download for a revenue block at Worcester

Attempted to buy a ticket - which didn't complete in time as the guard was coming through the carriage.

 

[Aaron1]

So I received am email today from TPE in response to my complaint about this, their reply included a lot of spiel about them being unable to disclose to me disciplinary records of employees due to GDPR (my complaint did not include anything about wanting to see employees disciplinary and personell files) so that was probably unnecessary, the email also included phrases like " I don't want you to think we won't address this" this was included over 3 times in the email and the way they was trying to over re-assure me suggests to me they aren't going to address it at all, but obviously I may be wrong

The entire reply seemed to be quite unprofessional and poorly worded but oh well

 

[gray1404]

So I received am email today from TPE in response to my complaint about this, their reply included a lot of spiel about them being unable to disclose to me disciplinary records of employees due to GDPR (my complaint did not include anything about wanting to see employees disciplinary and personell files) so that was probably unnecessary, the email also included phrases like " I don't want you to think we won't address this" this was included over 3 times in the email and the way they was trying to over re-assure me suggests to me they aren't going to address it at all, but obviously I may be wrong

The entire reply seemed to be quite unprofessional and poorly worded but oh well

Witte back and ask for a managerial review and deadlock letter to take the matter to the Ombudsman

 

[Haywain]

So I received am email today from TPE in response to my complaint about this, their reply included a lot of spiel about them being unable to disclose to me disciplinary records of employees due to GDPR (my complaint did not include anything about wanting to see employees disciplinary and personell files) so that was probably unnecessary, the email also included phrases like " I don't want you to think we won't address this" this was included over 3 times in the email and the way they was trying to over re-assure me suggests to me they aren't going to address it at all, but obviously I may be wrong

The entire reply seemed to be quite unprofessional and poorly worded but oh well

What are you asking them and what do you want from them in response?

 

[Aaron1]

What are you asking them and what do you want from them in response?

I just raised a complaint about how the RPI either made rules up on the spot or there may be a training issue, all I wanted from them was to address the situation, either talk to the RPI about making rules up on the spot if applicable or provide extra training/guidance.

 

[Haywain]

I just raised a complaint about how the RPI either made rules up on the spot or there may be a training issue, all I wanted from them was to address the situation, either talk to the RPI about making rules up on the spot if applicable or provide extra training/guidance.

I don't really think you are going to get anything better than you have. Dealings between employee and employer are confidential and won't be shared with you.

 

[Birmingham]

Dealings between employee and employer are confidential and won't be shared with you.

Yes but the OP said they didn't ask for that!

 

[Haywain]

Yes but the OP said they didn't ask for that!

Asking what action is being taken is pretty much that.

 

[Class800]

Asking what action is being taken is pretty much that.

Not really. It is reasonable to know what actions in terms of reviewing training procedures or policies the company is undertaking (or failing to undertake) to resolve the issue that was caused to the OP. The details of the individual employee are irrelevant

 

[Aaron1]

Asking what action is being taken is pretty much that.

I didn't ask them to provide me details of what action is being taken, I just wanted them to address it, whether that is more training or a chat with the person concerned, as if it isn't addressed some passengers won't necessary know that the RPI is in the wrong if it happened to them. They would assume the RPI is correct and may start worrying about potential consequences.

What action they take is up to them, and its details I don't want to know or don't need to know and certainly didn't ask for.