Portsmouth - Cardiff service potential solutions?

[GWVillager]

And some are missing the fact that there aren't enough 158s at GWR for 5 car operation, even if the dwell times weren't a concern.

You must be thinking of someone else - I never mentioned 5 car 158 operation. But the reason there aren’t enough for that is as they have been sent off West, being replaced by the woefully inadequate Turbos. Would it not make more sense to send the 165/6s further out and keep the 158s where they were, bolstered by TfW’s sizeable outgoing fleet? Then there’d definitely be enough.

 

[JonathanH]

Would it not make more sense to send the 165/6s further out and keep the 158s where they were, bolstered by TfW’s sizeable outgoing fleet?

TfW's 158 fleet wasn't available in 2018, isn't available now, and won't be for at least two years.

 

[twitch7443]

I think people are missing the point. Dwell times are not really the main issue on Portsmouth to Cardiff, its capacity and comfort. Obviously it’s better to be able to board in 30 seconds, but they aren’t exactly stoppers and if that means a terrible travelling environment then it is most definitely not worth it.

I hate to sound aggravated but I am fed up with people acting as if Portsmouth to Cardiff is some sort of short distance local (justifying the debacle that is 165s running it). That’s like saying the Class 800s should be fitted with Metro interiors because lots of people only travel between Slough and Paddington.

There needs to be a good balance. There are a lot of people who stay on these services for a majority, if not all of the journey. However, there is also a not-small amount of passengers who travel on these services between Bath spa and Filton (in my experience), and I'm sure the same applies between other stations these services go to.

Several times I have walked up to the platform at Temple Meads and discovered that there are more people waiting than will comfortably fit inside a two or three coach train, let alone an already packed train...

 

[Snow1964]

I think people are missing the point. Dwell times are not really the main issue on Portsmouth to Cardiff, its capacity and comfort. Obviously it’s better to be able to board in 30 seconds, but they aren’t exactly stoppers and if that means a terrible travelling environment then it is most definitely not worth it.

I hate to sound aggravated but I am fed up with people acting as if Portsmouth to Cardiff is some sort of short distance local (justifying the debacle that is 165s running it). That’s like saying the Class 800s should be fitted with Metro interiors because lots of people only travel between Slough and Paddington.

They do act almost as stoppers between Bath and Warminster, and between Fareham and Portsmouth. Yes some very small stations are skipped, but long way from running semi-fast or express.

Bath - Bradford on Avon (12-13 mins), then 6 mins to Trowbridge, 7 mins to Westbury, 7 mins to Warminster (times vary slighly). Fareham - Cosham 7 mins, to Fratton 7 mins, to Portsmouth & Southsea 4 mins, and 4-5 mins to Portsmouth Harbour.

Lose 30 extra seconds at every station and train dwell goes up over 10 minutes across whole route.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think that the Cardiff - Portsmouth corridor is the Cinderella line of the country. It links seven cities and at least 10 universities. Whenever I see the trains they are extremely well-used. And sometimes, during the reversal at Temple Meads, one of the units is knocked-off the train, to add to the merriment.

 

[GWVillager]

There needs to be a good balance. There are a lot of people who stay on these services for a majority, if not all of the journey. However, there is also a not-small amount of passengers who travel on these services between Bath spa and Filton (in my experience), and I'm sure the same applies between other stations these services go to.

Indeed, and what we have at the moment is nowhere near that balance. I liked the earlier, entirely theoretical, suggestion of bi mode 170s!

They do act almost as stoppers between Bath and Warminster, and between Fareham and Portsmouth. Yes some very small stations are skipped, but long way from running semi-fast or express.

Bath - Bradford on Avon (12-13 mins), then 6 mins to Trowbridge, 7 mins to Westbury, 7 mins to Warminster (times vary slighly). Fareham - Cosham 7 mins, to Fratton 7 mins, to Portsmouth & Southsea 4 mins, and 4-5 mins to Portsmouth Harbour.

Lose 30 extra seconds at every station and train dwell goes up over 10 minutes.

With the announcement that the local authorities wish to introduce more stopping trains to the route, perhaps the Portsmouth to Cardiff trains can miss some of the smaller stations, furthering the case for alternative traction?

Nonetheless, I don’t think end vestibules are as bad as all that- many other routes (e.g London Waterloo to Weymouth, London Paddington to Worcester) run with them for the sake of the longer distance passenger, surely the not insignificant numbers of long distance travellers on Portsmouth to Cardiff deserve the same.

 

[Snow1964]

I think that the Cardiff - Portsmouth corridor is the Cinderella line of the country. It links seven cities and at least 10 universities. Whenever I see the trains they are extremely well-used. And sometimes, during the reversal at Temple Meads, one of the units is knocked-off the train, to add to the merriment.

Some also seem to forget the population of places served
Portsmouth area about 215k, Southampton 255k, Salisbury 46k, Warminster+Westbury+Trowbridge+Bradford 85k, Bath 102k (or 205k if include whole BANES area), Bristol 475k, Newport 161k, Cardiff 365k. About 1.6m in total

Roughly similar numbers to what LNER serves between Peterborough and Edinburgh. And the journey times between these pair are similar to Portsmouth-Cardiff.

One gets IETs with decent seats, catering trolley, electronic seat reservations etc. Then look at Portsmouth-Cardiff, sometimes reduced to 2car class 165 (originally built for local services with journeys rarely above 30 minutes). A Cinderella service, but unlike Cinderella without a happy ending

 

[JonathanH]

Then look at Portsmouth-Cardiff, sometimes reduced to 2car class 165 (originally built for local services with journeys rarely above 30 minutes).

That is reinventing history. 165s frequently deputised for 166s and were indeed diagrammed in part to operate the same services from the time they were built. 166s were built to run to Oxford, Bedwyn and the Cotswolds, and, brand new, were well appointed units for doing so. I agree they are somewhat tatty.

 

[twitch7443]

Supposed to get the 1F28 1723 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central at Temple meads, it's reported as full and standing... This is the exact problem on this service. Why is there a two coach train on such a busy service?

I'm now going to wait for a different service because I don't fancy my chances at getting on an already packed 2 coach (I've learnt my lesson). I'd hate to be in the position of other passengers who don't find it as easy to find an alternative service, or get anxious traveling.

 

[LiftFan]

I gave up using these trains about 5 years ago and now drive. Goodness knows how many others have done the same? Presumably the DfT want people to use the roads? What are the MP’s through which this route runs doing about bringing pressure to get new trains ordered? Nothing by the look of it.

To be honest, it's made me give up traveling to the south coast altogether. It's either a train that'll be completely unfit for purpose and probably standing the entire way, or trying to use the A36 which is mostly single carriageway and absolutely horrible to use as soon as we get someone crawling at half the speed limit the entire way down...

 

[Cletus]

I was on the 1x158 between Romsey and Southampton this afternoon, running 30 minutes late, partly due to flooding near Warminster.

It was completely full, I was squeezed in at the middle of the aisle.

SWR not running any trains at all between Salisbury and Southampton is adding to the overcrowding.

 

[GWVillager]

Some also seem to forget the population of places served
Portsmouth area about 215k, Southampton 255k, Salisbury 147k, Warminster+Westbury+Trowbridge+Bradford 85k, Bath 102k (or 205k if include whole BANES area), Bristol 475k, Newport 319k, Cardiff 365k. About 1.8m in total

Roughly similar numbers to what LNER serves between Peterborough and Edinburgh. And the journey times between these pair are similar to Portsmouth-Cardiff.

One gets IETs with decent seats, catering trolley, electronic seat reservations etc. Then look at Portsmouth-Cardiff, sometimes reduced to 2car class 165 (originally built for local services with journeys rarely above 30 minutes). A Cinderella service, but unlike Cinderella without a happy ending

Precisely. It’s all very well and good saying you need wide doors for stops every few minutes, but maybe we ought to be questioning whether those stops should be made in the first place. Stoppers certainly wouldn’t go amiss between, say, Bristol and Southampton.

 

[vicbury]

I've been using this route for over a decade, starting with weekly trips from Bath to Southampton for uni, many many journeys between Bristol and Bath, and more recently between Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol. Its fine for my commuting journeys when it is 5-car trains, preferably the class 165/166s because they are so much more efficient, but anything less is horrendous.

I remember some journeys ten years ago having to stand all the way from Southampton to Bath, usually with no air conditioning, and with many journeys having to stand at least Southampton to Salisbury.

The rumours of a new fleet of trains could not be more warmly welcomed and I hope this route is sorted out finally. From my perspective, and observing passengers on this route, a solution of 2+2 seats with doors at one and two thirds would be ideal. Nobody uses the middle seats on the rows of 3, and the Class 158s with end doors are tediously slow.

 

[MML]

If GWR operated Cardiff to Southampton Central rather than continuing to Portsmouth Harbour would this free up a unit or 2, allowing the service to be strengthened to 5 car?
The Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton could be switched to Southern 377 4-car units which already operate the services to London Victoria.
Southern are also short of stock at the moment but are more likely to receive cascaded stock to replace the 313s and it would be more environmentally friendly to avoid using the DMUs over 3rd rail.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If GWR operated Cardiff to Southampton Central rather than continuing to Portsmouth Harbour would this free up a unit or 2, allowing the service to be strengthened to 5 car?
The Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton could be switched to Southern 377 4-car units which already operate the services to London Victoria.
Southern are also short of stock at the moment but are more likely to receive cascaded stock to replace the 313s and it would be more environmentally friendly to avoid using the DMUs over 3rd rail.

The GWR route is set up to be operated from Portsmouth. At the Harbour there is the platform capacity to turn around and clean the rolling stock including filling water tanks. This is not possible at Southampton Central as the station is not designed for terminating services.

Furthermore traincrew are located in Fratton as is the fuelling point.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Supposed to get the 1F28 1723 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central at Temple meads, it's reported as full and standing... This is the exact problem on this service. Why is there a two coach train on such a busy service?

I'm now going to wait for a different service because I don't fancy my chances at getting on an already packed 2 coach (I've learnt my lesson). I'd hate to be in the position of other passengers who don't find it as easy to find an alternative service, or get anxious traveling.

At least at Bristol we also get the option of the services coming up from Taunton and Penzanze heading to Cardiff. It's somewhat funny that those services now have the more comfortable rolling stock considering I remember when they were pacer operated and the 158s on the Portsmouth services were luxury in comparison. How times change!

 

[swt_passenger]

The Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton could be switched to Southern 377 4-car units which already operate the services to London Victoria.

Noting the earlier reply by @HamworthyGoods explaining the impracticalities, in the pretty unlikely event of separating the service either side of Southampton then it would be far more likelyfor SWR to operate a short Portsmouth leg, as it’s quite firmly in their normal operating area.

But in most previous discussions, (and you’re not the first to propose it), forum members have usually been set against it, preferring the through service.

 

[Western Sunset]

Ah, the good old days. I remember going from Bristol to Cardiff behind a Thousand (D1010 - funny what one remembers) and it gave up the ghost between Filton and Patchway...

 

[stj]

How many people actually travel the full distance between Cardiff and Portsmouth? Maybe the service needs to be cut back?

 

[RPI]

How many people actually travel the full distance between Cardiff and Portsmouth? Maybe the service needs to be cut back?

Not a huge amount but there are plenty of mid distance sort of journeys say Salisbury to Cardiff, Southampton to Bath, Portsmouth/Southampton to Westbury for connections west so I'd that it probably shouldn't be cut back as there are plenty of useful journeys.

 

[nw1]

My experience on this line was mostly in the mid and late 90s. At the time the vast majority of services were 2-car 158s, which did suffice in the middle of the day but could cause major overcrowding problems near the peaks. The 1635 from Bath to Portsmouth (ex Cardiff) was 2-car and prone to huge overcrowding, while the 1735 was the one service which was 4-car.... when it turned up (in some years, one portion came down the Marches line from Liverpool and this was very prone to delays). Frequently this would also be 2-car as a result, and when it was, the crushloading was ridiculous. Just about ok beyond Warminster.

Probably due to the economic recovery rather than anything else, the overcrowding was worse under Wales and West in the late 90s than it had been under BR in the mid-90s.

At some point the majority of 158s were lengthened to 3-car but by this stage I was only using the route for leisure purposes at the weekends.

 

[Western Sunset]

Are the sharp curves between Fareham and St Denys still an issue preventing certain types of units from operating over the route?

 

[Bill57p9]

I do think that a (say) 5 car InterCity-grade DMU could have made sense for the GWR.

Indeed: if only GWR had some InterCity grade DMUs coming available having been replaced by IEPs in the West Country...

Sure, the Castle sets aren't exactly environmentally friendly and would no doubt raise some operating challenges, but with capacity on the route at crisis point it seems a waste not to consider them as a stop gap solution until new stock could be delivered. Think ScotRail, who had never previously had an HST in their existence and who also deployed 365s as a stop gap.

 

[paul1609]

Are the sharp curves between Fareham and St Denys still an issue preventing certain types of units from operating over the route?

444s (and 220/1 on diversion)158, 166, 170s operate/ have operated on the line so I would think not.
The HSTs that have operated to Portsmouth operated via Eastleigh as the line via Netley was not cleared for them.
I think there remain some weight limits on the Hamble bridge but not low enough to affect passenger units.

 

[Man of Kent]

Some also seem to forget the population of places served
Portsmouth area about 215k, Southampton 255k, Salisbury 147k, Warminster+Westbury+Trowbridge+Bradford 85k, Bath 102k (or 205k if include whole BANES area), Bristol 475k, Newport 319k, Cardiff 365k. About 1.8m in total

Roughly similar numbers to what LNER serves between Peterborough and Edinburgh. And the journey times between these pair are similar to Portsmouth-Cardiff.

Not sure of the source of some of those figures (most recent census gives Newport as 160,000, and Salisbury is overstated by 100,000). While there is some confusion between town and wider area, by my totting up of census figures, LNER serves rather more than 2m (and isolating London rather skews the total demand for travel). Also, big cities such as Newcastle (0.8m) and Edinburgh (0.5m) tend to generate proportionately more journeys than the smaller settlements - accentuated by the fact that average journey times on the East Coast are faster than cross-country from the Solent to the Severn.

 

[alistairlees]

Some also seem to forget the population of places served
Portsmouth area about 215k, Southampton 255k, Salisbury 147k, Warminster+Westbury+Trowbridge+Bradford 85k, Bath 102k (or 205k if include whole BANES area), Bristol 475k, Newport 319k, Cardiff 365k. About 1.8m in total

Roughly similar numbers to what LNER serves between Peterborough and Edinburgh. And the journey times between these pair are similar to Portsmouth-Cardiff.

One gets IETs with decent seats, catering trolley, electronic seat reservations etc. Then look at Portsmouth-Cardiff, sometimes reduced to 2car class 165 (originally built for local services with journeys rarely above 30 minutes). A Cinderella service, but unlike Cinderella without a happy ending

For Salisbury I think you have quoted the population of Salisbury in Australia (see https://forecast.id.com.au/salisbury). This is a suburb of Adelaide. GWR services have not yet made it there

The UK Salisbury is (according to Wikipedia and other sources) around 45,000.

 

[paul1609]

Not sure of the source of some of those figures (most recent census gives Newport as 160,000, and Salisbury is overstated by 100,000). While there is some confusion between town and wider area, by my totting up of census figures, LNER serves rather more than 2m (and isolating London rather skews the total demand for travel). Also, big cities such as Newcastle (0.8m) and Edinburgh (0.5m) tend to generate proportionately more journeys than the smaller settlements - accentuated by the fact that average journey times on the East Coast are faster than cross-country from the Solent to the Severn.

The ONS list of UK major conurbations ranks "South Hampshire (Portsmouth-Southampton)" as the 7th largest in the UK with a population about 200K higher than 'Tyneside". It is also the most densely populated area outside of Greater London.

 

[nw1]

For Salisbury I think you have quoted the population of Salisbury in Australia (see https://forecast.id.com.au/salisbury). This is a suburb of Adelaide. GWR services have not yet made it there

The UK Salisbury is (according to Wikipedia and other sources) around 45,000.

Yes, Salisbury definitely doesn't seem like a 100,000+ town. For example Wikipedia gives Reading at around 175,000 and Salisbury definitely seems considerably smaller than Reading.

And while I don't know Newport very well, 300,000+ does indeed sound like an overestimation; if it were that big, it would be a pretty major regional centre . That figure isn't for Newport, Rhode Island?

(EDIT apparently not: Newport, RI is much smaller than I thought it was, and smaller than Newport, Wales; as I've heard of the place I imagined it would be a pretty big city).

 

[Mike Machin]

It wouldn't be unprecedented for a bespoke design to be produced with the Portsmouth-Cardiff route in mind, as this is what the Western Region of British Railways did in the 1960s with the introduction of the Swindon-built Inter City DMUs - class 123 I think. They featured proper main-line standards of accommodation, including comfortable compartment coaches and a buffet car within the formation. I think they were introduced in the early 1960s, but they still looked exceptionally smart and were still hammering through my then local station at Netley when I walked home from Junior School in 1966/67 although they were replaced by MK1s and Hymek Class 35s shortly after.

It is a problematic route to serve as yes, it does act as a local commuter service throughout parts of the journey, but equally a surprisingly high number of passengers do travel longer distances, as others have said, Portsmouth to Westbury, Southampton to Cardiff, Fareham to Bath etc. A lot of military personnel use it between Portsmouth and Westbury - Navy people travelling from Portsmouth to Plymouth, and lots and lots of students between the various universities along the route. The Portsmouth/Southampton conurbation is the eighth largest in the UK, and considering the route connects this enormously-populated area of over 1.5 million people with Bristol and the Welsh Capital - the service today is positively woeful.

I have given-up using rail completely within the United Kingdom as the two routes I previously used Southampton - Bristol and Southampton - Birmingham are just so unpleasant using crowded, ancient, filthy, noisy, smoke-belching trains. I still use the Vestbanen in Norway on a regular basis and it provides such a stark contrast to the appalling non-service people are forced to accept here.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, Salisbury definitely doesn't seem like a 100,000+ town. For example Wikipedia gives Reading at around 175,000 and Salisbury definitely seems considerably smaller than Reading.

And while I don't know Newport very well, 300,000+ does indeed sound like a vast overestimation; if it were that big, it would be a pretty major regional centre. That figure isn't for Newport, Rhode Island?

(EDIT apparently not: Newport, RI is much smaller than I thought it was, and smaller than Newport, Wales; as I've heard of the place I imagined it would be a pretty big city).

Rechecked, and the source I checked was for wrong Salisbury, now corrected, and corrected Newport to the city, rather than unitary area too. Apologies