Alternative to IEP Program

[Zoe]

Loose newbury...

Don't forget that wiring to Newbury allows all the Paddington suburban services to be EMU operated. You'd have to retain 165s/166s if you didn't electrify to Newbury.

 

[Daimler]

Don't forget that wiring to Newbury allows all the Paddington suburban services to be EMU operated. You'd have to retain 165s/166s if you didn't electrify to Newbury.

Not sure if this is worth it though - here is one case where I do think it's worth getting people to change onto a fast train from Reading-London.

 

[Zoe]

Not sure if this is worth it though - here is one case where I do think it's worth getting people to change onto a fast train from Reading-London.

You'd lose a train between London and Reading though. Unless you are suggesting keeping the path from London but terminating at Reading.

 

[Nym]

The problem is, the're using Newbury wires and Bi-Mode to get there and switchover, commuters can stick with diesel for now, the Newbury wires would be much better used on a route up the MML, they'd be happy with 166s that are twice as long no?

 

[Zoe]

The problem is, the're using Newbury wires and Bi-Mode to get there and switchover, commuters can stick with diesel for now, the Newbury wires would be much better used on a route up the MML, they'd be happy with 166s that are twice as long no?

That's a long way off and will only apply if the MML gets electrified and the 222s cascaded or Chester is wired and Voyagers cascaded. That's about 10 years away and quite a bit can change between now and then. If you keep Newbury suburban services as diesel then you have to retain a small fleet of 166s for one purpose only and fueling facilities. This is one reason the Romford to Upminster line was electrified in the 1980s so they didn't have to retain a DMU for it. The line didn't justify electrification in its own right.

 

[Nym]

That's a long way off and will only apply if the MML gets electrified and the 222s cascaded or Chester is wired and Voyagers cascaded. That's about 10 years away and quite a bit can change between now and then. If you keep Newbury suburban services as diesel then you have to retain a small fleet of 166s for one purpose only and fueling facilities. This is one reason the Romford to Upminster line was electrified in the 1980s so they didn't have to retain a DMU for it. The line didn't justify electrification in its own right.

So we're ignoring the Greenford and Windsor branch lines now are we? The're going to need to retain 166s whatever happens...

 

[Zoe]

So we're ignoring the Greenford and Windsor branch lines now are we? The're going to need to retain 166s whatever happens...

Well the logical thing to do would be to electrify the branches so that all suburban services can be EMU operated.

 

[Daimler]

deleted

 

[Nym]

Well the sensible thing to do would be to electrify the branches so that all suburban services can be EMU operated.

Newbury isn't exactly a branch though, it goes all the way to Penzance...

Greenford or Windsor or Newbury in their own right for an all electric fleet, but the're going to need diesels for off wire services anyway, and 166s for off wire branches.

 

[Zoe]

Newbury isn't exactly a branch though, it goes all the way to Penzance...

Well it goes to Cogload Jucntion where it rejoins the GWML. The point of electrifying to Newbury is so that suburban services can go over to EMU opreation. Newbury is the only town of any size between Reading and Cogload Junction.

 

[Nym]

Either way, in terms of cost cutting (as it needs to be done) Dropping Newbury should be top of the list, then Swansea...

 

[Zoe]

Either way, in terms of cost cutting (as it needs to be done) Dropping Newbury should be top of the list, then Swansea...

Why not just electrify to Bristol for now then and operate with EMUs. You could retain HSTs in the short term for South Wales services.

 

[Nym]

Thats the idea of a Rolling program of electrification...

London - Bath - Bristol first...

Then Didcot - Oxford

Then Swindon - Cardiff & Bristol via Parkway

Then Cardiff - Swansea, Midland Mainline, Oxford - Birmingham, Birmingham - Bristol Parkway.

To roll in the right order, electrify the routes that will release the diesel stock you need releasing.

Eg. if you're short of suburban DMUs, electrify GOBLIN, Lostock - Hindley, Cardiff Valley Lines etc. But if you need some 125mph intercity stock freeing up for off wires services somwhere (to replace HSTs), you'd want to look at doing somthing like the Midland Mainline or Crewe - Chester next...

You electify where you make the most amount of services possible electric...

 

[sprinterguy]

Why not just electrify to Bristol for now then and operate with EMUs. You could retain HSTs in the short term for South Wales services.

Only electrifying to Bristol offers very few of the benefits of electrification. It would result in a small, expensive fleet of EMUs being procured (no economies of scale to be had from ordering a larger order of trains in one go) that may not be compatible with potential trains built at a future point following further electrification beyond Bristol. Most of the services would initially be diesels running under the wires if HSTs were retained on services beyond Bristol.

 

[Zoe]

Only electrifying to Bristol offers very few of the benefits of electrification. It would result in a small, expensive fleet of EMUs being procured (no economies of scale to be had from ordering a larger order of trains in one go) that may not be compatible with potential trains built at a future point following further electrification beyond Bristol. Most of the services would be diesels running under the wires if HSTs were retained on services beyond Bristol.

Not if you only electrified via Bath. In that case HSTs would only run under the wires as far at Wooton Basset Junction. If you are going to electrify to Cardiff though you are going to need bi-mode for Swansea trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not if you only electrified via Bath. In that case HSTs would only run under the wires as far at Wooton Basset Junction. If you are going to electrify to Cardiff though you are going to need bi-mode for Swansea trains.

True, if electrification is going to finish short of an entire route to cut costs then there are always going to be compromises that have to be made: Be it by splitting formerly through services into separate electric and diesel components, having overly complex bi-mode trains, or running diesels under the wires.

Even though I’m not a supporter of the bi-mode option, if loco changes or drags off the electrified network aren’t an option then it is a safer bet than a small fleet of EMUs solely for Bristol services which could be non-standard within a decade of being built, and bi-mode offers better usage of the OHLE.

In terms of getting the best value out of the electrified “trunk” network, bi-mode doesn’t look to be the best way of going about it compared to a swift loco change with a rake of push me-pull you coaching stock. Whilst there are many inefficiencies in loco changes or EMU drags, they don’t strike me as being greater than the inefficiencies of lugging about redundant power equipment over large route sections.

 

[Nym]

Yes, but if it where a rolling program, where we knew we'd need say 200 LDPE EMU sets then the economies of scale start to tip in our favour, but it needs to have a plan set in place to garentee it, it seems a shock in the origional plan saying all the way to swansea, but it was phased, and if the MML and cross country electrification was set out in a clear timeline BY NETWORK RAIL! For reasons of engineering not politics as I suspect the GWML is, timed to have enough wires to cascade 125mph diesel stock to off wire GWML routes (Not Bristol / Swansea / Oxford) then we don't need Bi Mode, ever. Diesel Under Wires would be reduced by running everything west of Exeter (where electrification could end) via the B&H line, a small amount between Swindon and London 1tp2h and between Oxford and London 1tph, and Reading and London 1tph where most services will be electric. This is quite diferent to Aberdeen - London, as much less of the journey is under the wires by percentage, as apposed to running an HST all the way to Camarthen, that would have to just be cut, or loco hauled for a short distance.

 

[Zoe]

In terms of getting the best value out of the electrified “trunk” network, bi-mode doesn’t look to be the best way of going about it compared to a swift loco change with a rake of push me-pull you coaching stock. Whilst there are many inefficiencies in loco changes or EMU drags, they don’t strike me as being greater than the inefficiencies of lugging about redundant power equipment over large route sections.

But it's not easy when the company that was won the contract to supply the trains isn't offering to build a locomotive.

 

[Nym]

Contracts can be cancelled, if somone sees sense and says, "No, we don't want that any more, now we want this..."

And re-tenders for a contract for 200 LDPE EMUs able to be formed of between 9 and 12 carrages, 155mph capable (for future linespeed increases) and ERTMS compiant, when you're spending £1bn+ you don't want to be wasting a shed tonne of money on the wrong rolling stock, the're picking up pennies while pound coins fall out their A***es, £27mil isn't that much when you're spending billions, and if you spend £500mil on the wrong trains, then we'll have wasted a hell of a lot more than £27mil.

There are ways to sugar coat it to the press that it's not wasting £27mil, but an improvment to the electrification scheme means that the're no longer needed.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes, but if it where a rolling program, where we knew we'd need say 200 LDPE EMU sets then the economies of scale start to tip in our favour, but it needs to have a plan set in place to garentee it, it seems a shock in the origional plan saying all the way to swansea, but it was phased, and if the MML and cross country electrification was set out in a clear timeline BY NETWORK RAIL! For reasons of engineering not politics as I suspect the GWML is, timed to have enough wires to cascade 125mph diesel stock to off wire GWML routes (Not Bristol / Swansea / Oxford) then we don't need Bi Mode, ever. Diesel Under Wires would be reduced by running everything west of Exeter (where electrification could end) via the B&H line, a small amount between Swindon and London 1tp2h and between Oxford and London 1tph, and Reading and London 1tph where most services will be electric. This is quite diferent to Aberdeen - London, as much less of the journey is under the wires by percentage, as apposed to running an HST all the way to Camarthen, that would have to just be cut, or loco hauled for a short distance.

I can see the benefits if a rolling programme can be guaranteed from start to finish within a suitable timescale, but as such a scheme would surely take place under successive governments due to the unavoidable length of time required to implement a big electrification project then I wouldn’t have much faith in such a scheme reaching its’ conclusion at all.

 

[Zoe]

Diesel Under Wires would be reduced by running everything west of Exeter (where electrification could end) via the B&H line

Ending electrification at Exeter is a bit pointless, there are not good facilities, most trains from London and Birmingham continue to Plymouth. If you wire Bristol to Plymouth than forget about the Berks and Hants and go over to EMUs. This still leaves the issue of Plymouth to Penzance but then like with Edinburgh, a guarantreed connection could be available at Plymouth.

 

[Nym]

Well, if wires ended at Plymouth, run one 1tp2h via Bristol (Electric) and 1tp2h via B&H Diesel (extended from Penzance)

 

[Zoe]

Well, if wires ended at Plymouth, run one 1tp2h via Bristol (Electric) and 1tp2h via B&H Diesel (extended from Penzance)

What's the point though? If you improve the line speeds via Bristol there would be no reason to use the Berks and Hants. You would still be running under the wires from Cogload to Plymouth.

 

[Nym]

To retain through services to Paddington with one train instead of two?

 

[Zoe]

To retain through services to Paddington with one train instead of two?

Would you discontinue XC services to Penzance then if Birmingham to Bristol and Bristol to Plymouth were electrified?

 

[Blindtraveler]

i know I probs come across as anti voyager, but I'm not, they do have there place. What I'm wondering is how heavilly the DFTs plans rely on them lasting for a long time with the heavy usage thet currently/wil get? That then begs the q, will they last? What sort of reliabilitty or other issues wil they develop during the next decade or so? Will we see more reforming of shorter sets to make longer ones? thoughts from the experts please.

 

[Nym]

i know I probs come across as anti voyager, but I'm not, they do have there place. What I'm wondering is how heavilly the DFTs plans rely on them lasting for a long time with the heavy usage thet currently/wil get?

Don't know, depends on what the DfT Decide to wire, and order.

That then begs the q, will they last?

They can proberbly last 30 years with a major refit at 15 years, but that depends on having a Euro IIIi complient engine available that can fit in the space left by a Cummins QSK19F unit currently used. Or a total overhaul of the QSK19F unit, there is a supprisingly large amount of these engines on the railway, so if overhaul parts were needed for all of them, a mass order from cummins could facilitate this.

Used as far as I know by the following units: Class 180, Class 185, Class 220, Class 221, Class 222

What sort of reliabilitty or other issues wil they develop during the next decade or so?

If the're looked after and inspected properly, not that many, they're built very modularly, if a traction motor fails, theres another 7 availble and that one can be isolated, same with generators, etc. And for the most part they can be removed to be serviced.

Will we see more reforming of shorter sets to make longer ones?

We can only hope, if the Hitachi Bi Mode plans are scrapped but we still need ElectroDiesel trains for Cross Country, West Coast and off wire routes for Great Western, extra panto and/or generator coaches have been offered by Bombardier, re-forming isn't likely to happen though, if you mean making some 3 car and some 6 car voyagers.

Thoughts from the experts please.

Some might say so, some might not...

 

[Zoe]

Of course locomotive haulage of EMUs between Plymouth and Penzance could have been used had the original specifcation stated this. Unfortunately it did not, Hitachi won and they won't build a locomotive so bi-mode is the only option.

 

[Nym]

Solve a lot of problems and Sack Hitachi then... Just because they don't know how to make locomotives doesn't mean that Siemens don't.

And working this out on the back of a fag packet, Electrification of MML would release enough medirans to cover all the diesel diagrams left over outside of Paddington - Bristol & Cardiff - Swansea via Bath and Parkway and Oxford wiring. Crewe - Chester falls slightly short...

 

[Zoe]

And working this out on the back of a fag packet, Electrification of MML would release enough medirans to cover all the diesel diagrams left over outside of Paddington - Bristol & Cardiff via Bath and Parkway and Oxford wiring. Crewe - Chester falls slightly short...

Are you keeping Swansea as a diesel diagram?