ASLEF (Scotland) wanting to do away with DOO.

[Falcon1200]

How does cancelling the train help if the second rostered person doesn't turn up?

Which is the issue with insisting that a train cannot run without that second person on board, whoever they may be; Not only would any disabled passengers be affected, if indeed there were any, but every single other passenger too.

They do have them on the majority of Scotrail routes....just not on Strathclyde area local electric services since 1986.

Pedant alert: Except of course on the electric services from Glasgow Queen Street High Level, and Glasgow Central to Edinburgh via Shotts; These trains must have a Guard, despite being formed of exactly the same stock that operates DOO quite happily elsewhere. I'm not sure of the current arrangements for the Glasgow Central to Edinburgh via Carstairs trains, these can run DOO between Central and Carstairs but AFAIK must still have a Guard to head further east.

The “Strathclyde Electrics” sounds like the OBS model, and I’m not sure how reflective it is, as it’s a tiny network?

A tiny network? The Glasgow Central High Level, Glasgow Queen St Low Level and Argyle Line services together comprise hundreds of trains a day - No wonder some people vote SNP!

ScotRail ticket examiners who do have a modicum of traction training etc but at present it appears may be missing in action entirely on a regular basis?

Not in my experience; I travelled on two Scotrail DOO trains today and tickets were checked on both.

 

[alf]

No. Look back & if not possible step onto platform.

 

[dk1]

No, I'm alluding to the GA solution in this respect - that the second member of staff is trained to dispatch in the event of degraded working. If you're going to have a second member of staff, it seems pretty wasteful not to train them how to do that.

The whole GA set up with the new trains & DCO has been a shining example.

 

[ComUtoR]

The whole GA set up with the new trains & DCO has been a shining example.

Interest piqued.. A colleague of mine will be starting at GA in May. Whats the DCO "Shining example" please ? I'll pass it on.

 

[43066]

GTR on board supervisors who earn a good wedge

They earn circa 30k. Not a good wedge for what’s involved. I genuinely don’t know how people cope on that salary in London (appreciate it would go further in the part of the country where you are).

Just go driving mate. You’ll be wasted as a driver, with your obviously good people skills, but aren’t we all. You’ll love and hate it, mostly love it.

Where do you go? South Eastern badlands level of nothingness IE nobody?

Dreadful. I’m on one now.

A tiny network? The Glasgow Central High Level, Glasgow Queen St Low Level and Argyle Line services together comprise hundreds of trains a day - No wonder some people vote SNP!

What? Where?! Argyll St. is in Mayfair, last I checked?

As a Londoner I would happily vote for Scottish independence. In fact, I’m positively gagging for it. Just leave already, stop complaining, and stop taking my bloody money!

 

[dk1]

Interest piqued.. A colleague of mine will be starting at GA in May. Whats the DCO "Shining example" please ? I'll pass it on.

Driver always opens doors & under normal circumstances closes them. The guard however can be asked to close them when needed. The train will also NOT operate without a guard. Performance & punctuality are at some the highest levels recorded.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sounds like "True DCO" with a safety trained second person but Driver """"operating"""" the train.

I would support that 100%

Cheers for the reply, most appreciated.

 

[dk1]

Sounds like "True DCO" with a safety trained second person but Driver """"operating"""" the train.

I would support that 100%

Cheers for the reply, most appreciated.

No problem mate. Good luck to your colleague & hope they enjoy their new career with us.

 

[Chester1]

They earn circa 30k. Not a good wedge for what’s involved. I genuinely don’t know how people cope on that salary in London (appreciate it would go further in the part of the country where you are).

Median gross pay in UK is £31,000. Is £30,000 the base salary or including shift allowances?

Sounds like "True DCO" with a safety trained second person but Driver """"operating"""" the train.

I would support that 100%

Cheers for the reply, most appreciated.

"True DCO" would be the best solution for passengers but will only happen as a compromise between unions and the government wanting the opposite things.

 

[LowLevel]

They earn circa 30k. Not a good wedge for what’s involved. I genuinely don’t know how people cope on that salary in London (appreciate it would go further in the part of the country where you are).

Just go driving mate. You’ll be wasted as a driver, with your obviously good people skills, but aren’t we all. You’ll love and hate it, mostly love it.



Dreadful. I’m on one now.



What? Where?! Argyll St. is in Mayfair, last I checked?

As a Londoner I would happily vote for Scottish independence. In fact, I’m positively gagging for it. Just leave already, stop complaining, and stop taking my bloody money!

They're on about 39 grand a year apparently, far more than most guards, which I've found mystifying, even with the South East being in consideration!

 

[physics34]

They're on about 39 grand a year apparently, far more than most guards, which I've found mystifying, even with the South East being in consideration!

Yep they earn a very good wedge for what they do.... theres certainly alot of people out there whp would do that job for £20k

 

[ComUtoR]

"True DCO" would be the best solution for passengers

Yes, I am at odds when reading some posts that absolutely laud DCO where there is a second person with the Driver playing door monitor but then state that DOO is the panacea to end all things. For me, DCO would be the best solution and I'm open minded when it comes to "safety critical" or not. I want the best for my passengers and DOO isn't it. I want the best for the industry and Guards also, 'isn't it' SO where do we go from here ?

but will only happen as a compromise between unions and the government wanting the opposite things.

DCO is the current compromise and I'd like to see more agreements going that way. Using edge case scenarios and digging in just isn't helping. What is best for all involved ? TBH I'm not 100% sure anymore.

 

[43066]

Median gross pay in UK is £31,000. Is £30,000 the base salary or including shift allowances?

No idea.

True DCO" would be the best solution for passengers but will only happen as a compromise between unions and the government wanting the opposite things.

I’d go with driver release, guard close, please.

They're on about 39 grand a year apparently, far more than most guards, which I've found mystifying, even with the South East being in consideration!

That seems quite high for what they do.

Then again, discussing salaries in the £30k range, I’m almost embarrassed by what I earned last year (let’s just say it was a multiple of that), and on track for a similar amount this year, given what I have to do.

It’s a more responsible job, for sure, which is why we are paid for what we do. But it also comes with way less BS. Can you stand to do it, is the question?! You could easily treble your current salary with a little overtime (I realise they isn’t your motivation).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

DCO is the current compromise and I'd like to see more agreements going that way. Using edge case scenarios and digging in just isn't helping. What is best for all involved ? TBH I'm not 100% sure anymore.

Easier to go and hide in the office*, I suspect. It’s mighty tempting, actually. Who in their right minds would want to work these shifts?!

*I’m only a few steps behind you, brother…

 

[ComUtoR]

I’d go with driver release, guard close, please.

Dispatch wise, CD/RA at every station would be a fairy tale but generally, as long as as safeguards are put in place, I don't have any major issues. The second person on board, for me, really is something I think is essential in the modern world. Passengers expect it, and they provide key services for them. As a Driver, whenever I know someone else is onboard, I really relax. Even if this person is Rail Enforcement, just having that second person makes a huge difference.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d go with driver release, guard close, please.

Yes are there any benefits at all these days of guards releasing? It only seems to cause a delay to opening the doors, whereas the driver seems best placed to know whether or not he’s stopped at the right point and the train is lined up along the platform.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes are there any benefits at all these days of guards releasing?

Our Guards must step out onto the Platform and are placed specifically to observe the entire platform and to ensure the train is fully platformed

whereas the driver seems best placed to know whether or not he’s stopped at the right point and the train is lined up along the platform.

Then why are stop short incidents so prevalent ?

 

[LowLevel]

Yes are there any benefits at all these days of guards releasing? It only seems to cause a delay to opening the doors, whereas the driver seems best placed to know whether or not he’s stopped at the right point and the train is lined up along the platform.

Depending on the train and stations you serve having guard operated manual SDO is cheaper than modifying the train or infrastructure but that's about it. They do give you a second chance at noticing an error has been made before committing to opening the doors though. Driver door irregularities are pretty common, though guard ones are also not unheard of.

Our Skegness and Lincoln lines are prime examples - the guard operated SDO on 170s is a significant upgrade on the local door operation in use on the 15x trains.

 

[43066]

are there any benefits at all these days of guards releasing?

Ours can release the doors way quicker than a DOO driver would be allowed to, due to having a droplight (on certain stock).

Other advantages… They have time to bring me a cuppa? Now there’s a benefit to having a guard. .

Then why are stop short incidents so prevalent ?

Poor quality drivers are being employed?

 

[Chester1]

Yes, I am at odds when reading some posts that absolutely laud DCO where there is a second person with the Driver playing door monitor but then state that DOO is the panacea to end all things. For me, DCO would be the best solution and I'm open minded when it comes to "safety critical" or not. I want the best for my passengers and DOO isn't it. I want the best for the industry and Guards also, 'isn't it' SO where do we go from here ?



DCO is the current compromise and I'd like to see more agreements going that way. Using edge case scenarios and digging in just isn't helping. What is best for all involved ? TBH I'm not 100% sure anymore.

Its become a straight forward battle on who runs the railway. The government thinks it calls the shots and the unions or at least the RMT think they do. The only way I can see it being resolved is through several months of strikes breaking the will of one side. I have said before, if the government resolves its disputes with public sector unions and then settles with other rail unions before settling with the RMT then the RMT will be in a really bad position.

No idea.

It sounds like its £30k you mention is the basic salary and the high 30s referred to by @ComUtoR Is the salary with shift allowances. Gross pay in high £30ks seems to be in right ball park for a reasonably skilled job with unsociable hours in the London area.

 

[Ex-controller]

Do DOO drivers in the central belt get paid more than a driver who drives trains with a conductor on board?

No. They can work both types of services on the same diagram.

This isn’t a huge surprise and I’m surprised it’s not the RMT behind it. Along with the demand to get rid of the HSTs, ScotRail should be very wary of not taking this seriously.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Here are my honest thoughts:

The “Strathclyde Electrics” sounds like the OBS model, and I’m not sure how reflective it is, as it’s a tiny network?

One of the more ignorant statements I’ve seen on here. Converting all these routes to conductor operation would be a huge undertaking.

 

[Chester1]

This isn’t a huge surprise and I’m surprised it’s not the RMT behind it. Along with the demand to get rid of the HSTs, ScotRail should be very wary of not taking this seriously.

It would be a massive sign of weakness if the Scottish Government gave into a challenge on a DOO system that has been in place for 36 years. I don't think the Scottish Government can financially afford ceding control of the railways to the unions.

 

[Ashley Hill]

the unions need to think about whether open and closing doors is an issue they are prepared to fight endlessly over.

If the doors are under full control or even just closing them is the responsibility of the guard then a guard must be provided and not just an OBS,QED.

I’d go with driver release, guard close, please.

This is the best compromise for new stock.

Yes are there any benefits at all these days of guards releasing? It only seems to cause a delay to opening the doors, whereas the driver seems best placed to know whether or not he’s stopped at the right point and the train is lined up along the platform.

There are also drivers who take their time to release the doors as well so don’t just lump that one on the guards.

 

[43066]

One of the more ignorant statements I’ve seen on here.

Thanks for the feedback. I have been to Glasgow, for the record.

I left on a jet plane.
Don’t know when I’ll be back again.
Hopefully never

I don't think the Scottish Government can financially afford ceding control of the railways to the unions.

Oh do keep up at the back. Who do you think really runs the railway ?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Poor quality drivers are being employed?

So you reckon it’s only poor quality Drivers that have incidents?….

 

[Chester1]

Oh do keep up at the back. Who do you think really runs the railway ?

That is exactly why I don't think the Tories will back down with RMT because they will want to weaken at least one union before they likely leave office in 2024. RMT seem to be the least willing to compromise of all the unions striking at the moment. They also have less public support than NHS staff and other public sector workers. ASLEF will have more Tory voters due to higher average pay and TSSA and Unite have already done one deal. RMT are the obvious union to pick a fight with. Rail strikes have less effect than before covid and all they need to do is get a deal that TSSA and Unite can accept (putting Labour in a bind), buy off ASLEF and refuse to budge until RMT and their staff run out of money. The government has 18 months and not much to lose.

If the doors are under full control or even just closing them is the responsibility of the guard then a guard must be provided and not just an OBS,QED.

Passengers won't distinguish between a guard, an OBS who is necessary for train to run but with no dispatch role, and a Southern style OBS. To the passenger the jobs will be the same and a name reflecting a focus on the providing customer service sends the right message. The roles can be distinguished at a more formal level but the name tag the second person wears should be the same and reflect a focus on customer / passenger service. However, Lumo went OTT with Customer Ambassador!

 

[43066]

So you reckon it’s only poor quality Drivers that have incidents?….

I’m sure some good ones do. The really good ones strive not to.

That is exactly why I don't think the Tories will back down with RMT because they will want to weaken at least one union before they likely leave office in 2024. RMT seem to be the least willing to compromise of all the unions striking at the moment. They also have less public support than NHS staff and other public sector workers. ASLEF will have more Tory voters due to higher average pay and TSSA and Unite have already done one deal. RMT are the obvious union to pick a fight with. Rail strikes have less effect than before covid and all they need to do is get a deal that TSSA and Unite can accept (putting Labour in a bind), buy off ASLEF and refuse to budge until RMT and their staff run out of money. The government has 18 months and not much to lose.

Yes, the RMT are noble cannon fodder foot soldiers. Wave after wave of them will be gunned down, like the first day on the Somme, the first wave onto the beaches of Iwo Jima, or the charge of the Light Brigade. We will honour their blessed and noble sacrifice, and probably build some sort of Mick Lynch shaped memorial.

Eventually the powers that be will agree a pay rise for the ASLEF generals. At least that’s the plan

 

[Bletchleyite]

GTR on board supervisors who earn a good wedge but hardly need to know what a train is before they get on it and certainly don't need to know where they are in railway terms, except a rudimentary best guess by glancing at a crib sheet and turning on a key at every station whilst they stick their head out of the door before going back to their phone, by all accounts?

Surprises me they don't have them scanning e-tickets to prevent fraudulent refunds.

 

[Urban Gateline]

As a driver, once I’ve taken on dispatch responsibility, I don’t see much benefit in an OBS. I’m honestly not sure whether I’d rather have someone like that aboard or just go back to full one-man-band DOO, where I don’t have to worry about another member of staff who is just another passenger, can’t actually reset passcoms etc. Either way, I am the one who will have to go back if anything happens, in addition to the main act of getting the thing from A to B. I might as well just do without the OBS and take the pay rise….

Actually the OBS do reset passcoms/call for aids and are trained in all sorts of other stuff too like resetting smoke detectors in toilets, ramp assists and keeping passengers informed so that you can focus on driving whilst they deal with the passengers!

Someone else also mentioned that they don't need to know about trains or Railway infrastructure/geography, it's simply not true! They still use route knowledge to be in the right place at stations with short platforms and are also responsible for checking a train coming out of service at terminating stations where there are no Platform staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passengers won't distinguish between a guard, an OBS who is necessary for train to run but with no dispatch role, and a Southern style OBS. To the passenger the jobs will be the same and a name reflecting a focus on the providing customer service sends the right message. The roles can be distinguished at a more formal level but the name tag the second person wears should be the same and reflect a focus on customer / passenger service. However, Lumo went OTT with Customer Ambassador!

Conductor would probably do. Of the 3 modern tramways with them that's what they're known as, at least informally, and the role is similar.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Surprises me they don't have them scanning e-tickets to prevent fraudulent refunds.

They do have the equipment to do this along with ticket selling.