ASLEF (Scotland) wanting to do away with DOO.

[43066]

Merseyrail have guards on very similar services.

I don't think it's a "go-er" but I actually have more respect for this than ASLEF/RMT wanting no additional DOO but being happy for it to continue where it already exists. You either think DOO is adequately safe, in which case more of it is fine, or you think it's unsafe, in which case you should campaign for its total abolition.

Yes indeed. The fact the unions have agreed to DOO in the past does muddy the waters, however they would argue that things have changed; when DOO was introduced it was considered acceptable by everyone concerned that the driver could take an interlock light as gospel. Today we are far more safety conscious and the railway is vastly more crowded than in 1981.

That argument is not without merit, however it’s clearly unlikely that DOO is going to be reversed where introduced.

ASLEF wanting to go back to the 1970s isn’t.

I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the 1970s when I was last given two on the bell by a guard… In fact it was earlier today . It’s just a different method of operation. Both are equally valid in different contexts.

DOO is simple.

Somebody is responsible for the dispatch of the train. It is one of:

Driver
‘Guard’
Station platform dispatch staff.

There can only be one person ultimately responsible for confirming the train is safe to depart the station, and it is one of these three people.

Drivers may well not want that responsibility, fair enough, that’s a valid opinion. But them having responsibility is no different to any other human being having the responsibility, so long as the process is safe and the training & competence satisfactory. Ultimately it is one pair of eyes, one brain, and one process that is responsible. Whether they are located in the front of the train, in the middle / back of the train, or on the platform is irrelevant.

The process is clearly safe. If it wasn’t it would not be permitted, as it is for 3/4 of all rail passenger journeys in this country. As many people will remember, event the RSSB have conducted independent research which demonstrated DOO was, actually, safer than guard dispatch. I happen to know who presented that report to the RMT, and happen to know that dispute huffing and puffing, RMT actually accepted the conclusions (although they didn’t like them).

I agree with most of this. Certainly as a driver I don’t want DOO primarily because I don’t want the risk. I recognise that isn’t the same as arguing as it’s overall more or less safe than any other method.

However the report you mention IIRC struggled to conclude definitively and was agnostic on which was safest. Both are so safe, in absolute terms, as for it to not really matter which is used, there isn’t a lot to tell between them, and both will potentially give rise to different results in different situations.

The point really is that nobody can credibly argue against DOO on the basis that it’s less safe. The better argument is around the other benefits or keeping another person on the train and keeping a trained guard (as opposed to a uniformed passenger OBS). Having a member of staff on board will act as a deterrent to anti social/illegal behaviour, so there might be a safety benefit there. Then they can check tickets, do the “customer service” bit, to reset passcoms, assist during incidents and when things go wrong; and having then safety critical prevents them being removed entirely to save cost (at the expense of passenger experience!).

If they’re doing all that anyway (especially on long distance services that don’t stop much), why not have them present on the platform at stations to assist passengers, and doing driver-release-guard-close-dispatch?

To put another way; if you’re going to have a second person anyway, it doesn’t cost much extra to keep them safety critical, so the economic case for pushing DOO is much reduced…

 

[the sniper]

As many people will remember, event the RSSB have conducted independent research which demonstrated DOO was, actually, safer than guard dispatch. I happen to know who presented that report to the RMT, and happen to know that dispute huffing and puffing, RMT actually accepted the conclusions (although they didn’t like them).

I'm sure they could barely disguise their glee...

Which one was it, presumably not 'Evaluating technological solutions to support driver only operation train dispatch'?

 

[43066]

I'm sure they could barely disguise their glee...

Which one was it, presumably not 'Evaluating technological solutions to support driver only operation train dispatch'?

Wasn’t there a safety report published on the RSSB website which was hurriedly removed when it was realised it contained references to cost savings as an “advantage” (or similar?).

There was extensive discussion of this around the time of the GTR dispute. @Bald Rick may well be able to point to what I’m talking about.

Numerous platform staff can recite horror stories about dispatch incidents on both Guarded & DOO routes, neither is currently perfect, I’m unsure statistically which is safer, but do recall there’s not much in it, on the regular debates on here.

This is worth flagging because… shock horror…. I actually mostly agree with you here. It doesn’t seem to happen often, so we should celebrate these rare occasions .

 

[yorkie]

The DOO trains in Scotland are the model we should be aiming for on as many comparable routes as practicable across Great Britain, in my opinion.

It's a great system and the staff who check tickets on those trains are so much more efficient because they can stick to checking and selling tickets. They are also highly visible, which isn't something I can say for the Guards on some of the routes which I've travelled on closer to home recently.

 

[fwsmVor]

Guard dispatch gets a lot more expensive than just the cost of training and wages. From personal experience on the Severn Beach branch, the guard can sell about two tickets (one, if paid in cash) between each station before having to close the doors... all four of them. If I were less honest I'd go for free nine times out of ten in the peak, and indeed I know people who do.

 

[Bald Rick]

The point really is that nobody can credibly argue against DOO on the basis that it’s less safe. The better argument is around the other benefits or keeping another person on the train and keeping a trained guard (as opposed to a uniformed passenger OBS). Having a member of staff on board will act as a deterrent to anti social/illegal behaviour, so there might be a safety benefit there. Then they can check tickets, do the “customer service” bit, to reset passcoms, assist during incidents and when things go wrong;

I agree entirely.

and having then safety critical prevents them being removed entirely to save cost (at the expense of passenger experience!).

I disagree with this bit.

I'm sure they could barely disguise their glee...

quite the opposite. He told me he was rather nervous about it. AIUI it was the RMTs then General Secretary who made a big show of not liking the report, but afterwards in private was all smiles and said something like “well you’ve got to put on a show for the crowd”

 

[43066]

The DOO trains in Scotland are the model we should be aiming for on as many comparable routes as practicable across Great Britain, in my opinion.

It's a great system and the staff who check tickets on those trains are so much more efficient because they can stick to checking and selling tickets. They are also highly visible, which isn't something I can say for the Guards on some of the routes which I've travelled on closer to home recently.

They do make sense on metro/regional type ops. Preferably mandatory, a la GTR OBS, but with some additional safety critical training, so that they’re rather more useful…

I suggest driver release/guard close seems the best compromise solution on longer distance and IC services. The guard doing dispatch only on limited stop services hardly takes them away from other duties, and puts them onto the platform.

Visibility is important, of course, but this is a performance management issue, rather than anything to do with job title/duties.

 

[Ashley Hill]

How many drivers have been jailed for the death of a passenger trying to board a DOO service?

If this ever happened ASLEF would want DOO ditching immediately.
Whilst I would be very happy to see a guard on every train even I realise that it will not be reversed on existing routes. Perhaps ASLEF are hoping for a pay rise to drop their argument.
I see the usual suspects are saying that guards are a waste of time and all trains should be DOO. Getting rid of guards will not make your fares any cheaper!

 

[yorkie]

Fares are good value on the Stathclyde routes and rates of revenue collection has got to be much higher when the staff can concentrate on selling and checking tickets rather than constantly having to stop to do the doors.

Fares are not in any way set based on the costs of providing any particular service and this is more about taxpayer subsidy than anything else.

It's a great system they have up there and it ought to be expanded.

 

[the sniper]

Wasn’t there a safety report published on the RSSB website which was hurriedly removed when it was realised it contained references to cost savings as an “advantage” (or similar?).

There was extensive discussion of this around the time of the GTR dispute. @Bald Rick may well be able to point to what I’m talking about.

'Evaluating technological solutions to support driver only operation train dispatch' was the sales pitch for everything including Driver look back, where for a safety board/report, a surprising number of pages were dedicated to establishing the financial rewards for the RSSBs members/owners/funders. It was largely based on interviews with their own members, though just 7 of those, due to limited responses. I imagine this is not the report Bald Rick is referring to.

 

[43066]

rates of revenue collection has got to be much higher when the staff can concentrate on selling and checking tickets rather than constantly having to stop to do the doors.

I assume this is an intensive metro type operation, where stops are every couple of minutes? I agree, the more something starts to resemble (eg) London Overground, the harder it is to argue for a traditional guard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

'Evaluating technological solutions to support driver only operation train dispatch' was the sales pitch for everything including Driver look back, where for a safety board/report, a surprising number of pages were dedicated to establishing the financial rewards for the RSSBs members/owners/funders. It was largely based on interviews with their own members, though just 7 of those, due to limited responses. I imagine this is not the report Bald Rick is referring to.

I’d also be interested to hear. The document I’m thinking of, I distinctly remember being published, then swiftly removed.

The ground does seem to have shifted somewhat since this argument was last properly run in 2016, perhaps because of the (unexpected by many) longevity of the GTR OBS role. There now seems to be a general expectation that a second person will be retained in some form, and the discussion is over what form this role will take, rather than whether it will exist at all. That is perhaps what has empowered ASLEF to float this suggestion in Scotland.

 

[Peter0124]

Fares are good value on the Stathclyde routes and rates of revenue collection has got to be much higher when the staff can concentrate on selling and checking tickets rather than constantly having to stop to do the doors.

Fares are not in any way set based on the costs of providing any particular service and this is more about taxpayer subsidy than anything else.

It's a great system they have up there and it ought to be expanded.

Agree

 

[Huntergreed]

The DOO services in Scotland are some of the most reliable, punctual and good value journeys in the UK. Glasgow has a fantastic suburban network and DOO works very well. I (almost!) always have my ticket checked on these trains (far more than elsewhere in the country), and passengers are generally very happy with the service!

If that isn’t proof that a DOO railway can be both safe and successful, I’m not sure what is!

 

[185]

Somebody is responsible for the dispatch of the train. It is one of:

Driver
‘Guard’
Station platform dispatch staff.

There can only be one person ultimately responsible for confirming the train is safe to depart the station, and it is one of these three people.

View from an office desk maybe.

But for those out in the real world, all three pairs of eyes would be preferable at a major station, or two at ALL less busy places.

This driver was driving for 7 minutes...

Experience: I was dragged along by a train at 75mph

The door shut and trapped my arm. My wrist was clamped, with my entire hand inside the train. To my horror, it started moving

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bald Rick]

View from an office desk maybe.

No, the view from the operational front line.

But for those out in the real world, all three pairs of eyes would be preferable at a major station, or two at ALL less busy places.

You misunderstand me. There is only ever one person responsible for dispatch (there can only be).

 

[Horizon22]

View from an office desk maybe.

But for those out in the real world, all three pairs of eyes would be preferable at a major station, or two at ALL less busy places.

This driver was driving for 7 minutes...

Experience: I was dragged along by a train at 75mph

The door shut and trapped my arm. My wrist was clamped, with my entire hand inside the train. To my horror, it started moving

www.theguardian.com

No having more than 1 person involved in the dispatch process is actually proven to lead to more incidents and I believe that is in the report/evidence @Bald Rick alludes too. Whether that's driver/guard, driver/platform or platform/guard.

 

[43066]

The DOO services in Scotland are some of the most reliable, punctual and good value journeys in the UK. Glasgow has a fantastic suburban network and DOO works very well. I (almost!) always have my ticket checked on these trains (far more than elsewhere in the country), and passengers are generally very happy with the service!

If that isn’t proof that a DOO railway can be both safe and successful, I’m not sure what is!

Putting the operational aspects to one side, what you and @yorkie both seem to be saying you appreciate is a visible member of staff. I guarantee you’ll get that more often on a train where a second member of staff is rostered, then you will on the vast majority of DOO trains in the UK. The majority of trains with a second person rostered are still guarded!

How often do you think you’ll encounter a member of staff on “true” DOO Southeastern Metro and Thameslink services? I’ve used SE metro services regularly since circa 2001 and the number of times I’ve been gripped on the train, I could still count on the fingers of both hands. The trains are dingy and anti social behaviour is rife because there’s nobody to provide any sort of deterrent.

GTR (ie southern) have a non safety critical OBS rostered and they seem to be neither one thing nor the other. Quite frankly, I don’t see what value they add. Comparing them to SE mainline guards, I find my ticket checked regularly and much more involvement from the second member of staff who is also visible on platforms.

Based purely on passenger experience I invariably have a better experience on a train with another member of staff aboard, most of which are guarded trains. I’d be staggered if anyone with reasonable experience of travelling on the UK network honestly disagrees with that?

 

[Horizon22]

Putting the operational aspects to one side, what you and @yorkie both seem to be saying you appreciate is a visible member of staff. I guarantee you’ll get that more often on a train where a second member of staff is rostered, then you will on the vast majority of DOO trains in the UK. The majority of trains with a second person rostered are still guarded!

How often do you think you’ll encounter a member of staff on “true” DOO Southeastern Metro and Thameslink services? I’ve used SE metro services regularly since circa 2001 and the number of times I’ve been gripped on the train, I could still count on the fingers of both hands. The trains are dingy and anti social behaviour is rife because there’s nobody to provide any sort of deterrent.

GTR (ie southern) have a non safety critical OBS rostered and they seem to be neither one thing nor the other. Quite frankly, I don’t see what value they add. Comparing them to SE mainline guards, I find my ticket checked regularly and much more involvement from the second member of staff who is also visible on platforms.

Based purely on passenger experience I invariably have a better experience on a train with another member of staff aboard, most of which are guarded trains. I’d be staggered if anyone with reasonable experience of travelling on the UK network honestly disagrees with that?

The OBS concept and principle in my mind is the ideal, because of less time involved with dispatch duties so you can't be in the middle of one thing and have to halt and plan all your duties on board with dispatch duties. However it needs to be managed effectively otherwise it becomes pointless.

Good guards can do this anyway, but they are let down by a large percentage who don't balance the two tasks.

 

[the sniper]

No having more than 1 person involved in the dispatch process is actually proven to lead to more incidents

More than one person involved also makes it far more likely that an 'incident' will be noticed and officially reported/recorded, which would fairly obviously skew the statistics.

 

[Bald Rick]

Based purely on passenger experience I invariably have a better experience on a train with another member of staff aboard, most of which are guarded trains. I’d be staggered if anyone with reasonable experience of travelling on the UK network honestly disagrees with that?

Specifically on this point, I will disagree, sort of.

It depends on the type of service.

On long distance services, I have a decent experience with a second member of staff on board. That is always (and I mean always) because the second member of staff is serving drinks or food, either at seat or in a shop/buffet. And not because they have anything to do with the dispatch process.

On shorter distance services, my experience is the same whether the train has a second member of staff on or not. On my regular trips on most parts of the network, I find that on busy trains I am just as likely to see a second person coming through the train regardless of whether it is DOO or not. Certainly I have never, ever had my ticket checked on an SWR inner suburbs service.

My view, which I set out over a decade ago on these pages, is that all services should be DOO where the infrastructure allows; on busy commuter routes into major cities there should be someone on roughly 1 in 10 trains, with a higher frequency off peak and particularly in the post pm peak evening period. On the more ‘provincial’ routes a second person on the train should be rostered for passenger care, assistance and of course revenue duties where gate lines are much less prevalent. But, the absence of said second person for any reason should not lead to cancellation of the train.

 

[Carntyne]

Was on a reasonably longer distance DOO Scotrail train some time ago with two TIs on board, they did a check, then both got off with no relief staff, leaving just the driver. A few stops later a wheelchair user (put on by NR staff at a major station) almost got missed. As the driver was locking up, luckily someone pulled a passcom.

Simply too many stations to have staff at every one 24/7 but I do wonder what is the prevalence of missed disabled assists is on their DOO routes.

Which route was that?

Can't think of one where any NR staff member would board someone mid-route. A2B?

 

[Bletchleyite]

View from an office desk maybe.

But for those out in the real world, all three pairs of eyes would be preferable at a major station, or two at ALL less busy places.

This driver was driving for 7 minutes...

Experience: I was dragged along by a train at 75mph

The door shut and trapped my arm. My wrist was clamped, with my entire hand inside the train. To my horror, it started moving

www.theguardian.com

In Germany they rely on the interlock for DOO, on most stock there aren't monitors, just a small wing mirror. Much less likely here.

 

[185]

Can't think of one where any NR staff member would board someone mid-route. A2B?

NR staff at the origin station. 30min into journey both TIs got off ...then a couple of stops later this happened.

 

[AlterEgo]

The DOO trains in Scotland are the model we should be aiming for on as many comparable routes as practicable across Great Britain, in my opinion.

It's a great system and the staff who check tickets on those trains are so much more efficient because they can stick to checking and selling tickets. They are also highly visible, which isn't something I can say for the Guards on some of the routes which I've travelled on closer to home recently.

I couldn’t agree more. DOO must not lead to staffless trains but actually repurpose staff to be present all the time in the passenger saloon to be of assistance.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Do any of you work for the RDG by any chance? Many seem to be chanting their mantra on here!

 

[yorkie]

Do any of you work for the RDG by any chance? Many seem to be chanting their mantra on here!

Let's keep this a constructive conversation; if you wish to address a particular member or view, use the quote button. If you disagree with someone, say why you disagree and what your view is.

If anyone would like to disagree with anything I've said I would be keen to understand why; I am very happy to justify my views.

As for mantras, the mantra of the union is to further the pay and conditions of it's members, not to represent passengers views. It should be of no surprise that passengers like the ScotRail system, where staff are consistently friendly, proactive and highly visible (unlike on, for example TPE!)

The union is barking up the wrong tree if they want the support of the public. But I don't think they do; they don't need the support of the public, so why would they want it?

Those who support the union stance are entitled to their views but need to respect that it's bound to be a different opinion than held by many customers; we will need to agree to disagree.

 

[pompeyfan]

Could it be that ASLEF are actually hinting at the GA setup on the current DOO services?

There’s no real reason (other than the safety critical medical side of it), that the TIs couldn’t be made into guards but only dispatch in degraded situations, this would allow the best of all worlds.

In terms of drivers that currently have nothing to do with the door release, I can fully understand why they may be reluctant to take on that responsibility. You could have the best cameras and monitors in the world but there will always be that one time where they “look but don’t see”.

In regards to the safety argument, if I remember correctly a significant number of the guard dispatched incidents are “2 on the red”, on DOO trains there are no 2 on the red incidents which skews the number. It would probably be more accurate to compare SPADs (or TPWS 0) from station on Guard dispatched services and DOO trains.

I believe there are significantly more trap and drags on DOO dispatched trains compared to guard dispatched trains, however there has been more life changing / fatal incidents with guards (wasn’t there also a TPE train?). I do however think the persons involved in trap and drag were lucky not to be seriously hurt.

All humans are prone to errors, especially with repetitive tasks. there was an unaccommodated door release yesterday at a red signal put up by a driver, but similar has also happened on guard released services. Similarly, if a driver stops short and releases the doors, and no one notices it, it could go unreported, however if a guard is involved in the same incident they’re much more likely to be aware and then report.

I think rather than slinging mud at different grades, the actual objective should be for more modern rolling stock to be retrofitted to prevent wrong side or stop short releases.

Furthermore, why are TOCs like WMR still using UDS on their Desiros and not ASDO?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The DOO trains in Scotland are the model we should be aiming for on as many comparable routes as practicable across Great Britain, in my opinion.

It's a great system and the staff who check tickets on those trains are so much more efficient because they can stick to checking and selling tickets. They are also highly visible, which isn't something I can say for the Guards on some of the routes which I've travelled on closer to home recently.

My thoughts exactly and to evidence this one only has to look at the extremely active system on Anglian 755s. The ticket inspectors are very efficient.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Furthermore, why are TOCs like WMR still using UDS on their Desiros and not ASDO?

The fact SWR Desiros rely so heavily on ASDO proves it can be done.

 

[pompeyfan]

The fact SWR Desiros rely so heavily on ASDO proves it can be done.

Well my point exactly, I’m not sure if the 185s can also be altered.

What I’m trying to get at though is if the guard messes up the UDS, it’s a significant and potentially dangerous incident, why are we not putting these extra safeguards in place? I’d imagine because of money but it’s easier to throw mud at the guards grade. (Also SWT after ASDO had a significant customer satisfaction boost after guards were allowed out of cabs and only had to factor the PTI)

 

[Falcon1200]

I see the usual suspects are saying that guards are a waste of time and all trains should be DOO.

I cannot recall anyone here saying all trains should be DOO.

This driver was driving for 7 minutes...

This example is from Germany; Presumably there are no equivalent examples from the UK to quote?