ASLEF (Scotland) wanting to do away with DOO.

[Parjon]

40 years experience in the UK & around the world proves trains staffed by a driver alone are just as safe as guarded trains & of course less of a burden on tax & fare payers.

But ASLEF & many other organisations know that the SNP are a soft touch.
SNP always back down. I bet they row back or even abolish Scot Rail DOO.

When abolishing DOO drives Scotrail to even bigger losses SNP will blame the UK for failing to fund Scotland properly.
And therefore reinforce the SNP case for separation, SNP’s only real objective.

Agree. People debating the rights and wrongs of DOO or its value for money, or whether any normal government would do this are missing the point. If the SNP can find the money from somewhere, anywhere, I believe they'd pursue it.

Anything that introduces difficulties for the UK government and introduces a difference between the rest of the UK and Scotland, they're interested. If they can present it as being "morally right" (aka the UK being morally wrong) all the better.

If they say no, I think it will only be because they literally cannot afford it, or they think the public wouldn't buy their explanation.

 

[Carlisle]

Well my point exactly, I’m not sure if the 185s can also be altered.

What I’m trying to get at though is if the guard messes up the UDS, it’s a significant and potentially dangerous incident,

Isn’t all that linked to when 220/1s & 390s first entered service with driver door release, RMT weren’t keen so the next generation of stock like 185s etc gave guards full door control via whatever technology was available at the time. There’s currently no comprehensive plan on whether most guards roles will or won’t change significantly in future so probably no rush to spend money until there is .

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to make or discuss proposals for changes to ticket purchasing terms & conditions please use the following thread, thanks:

Could we get to the point of being required to hold a valid ticket before travelling. No excues.

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/aslef-scotland-wanting-to-do-away-with-doo.241067 I also think we should fairly soon get to the point of being required to hold a valid ticket before travelling. No excuse in this day and age, frankly.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ComUtoR]

Furthermore, why are TOCs like WMR still using UDS on their Desiros and not ASDO?

UDS ?

Cheers in advance

 

[380101]

Article on Twitter #12DaysofASLEF suggesting the need to end Driver Only Operation and retain Safety Critical (guard/conductor) person in addition to Driver on all services!

The main thrust of the arguement behind this from ASLEF in Scotland is to have a guaranteed 2nd member of staff on trains in ScotRail at ALL times to enhance the passenger experience and onboard safety. Currently, as most on here will know, you are only guaranteed to have a 2nd member of staff onboard a ScotRail train if it runs outwith the Strathclyde electric area - that 2nd person is a guard/conductor.

The current Transport minister at Holyrood, Jenny Gilruth, consistently talks about the safety of lone women on trains which is good but ASLEF along with the other rail unions in Scotland published a fantastic document last year - A vision for Scotland's Railways and they quite rightly talk about everyone's safety onboard trains!

The only way to do that is to guarantee a 2nd member of staff on ALL ScotRail trains. It is generally accepted by ASLEF in Scotland that there's almost no likelihood of guards returning to Strathclyde EMU services to operate doors but they absolutely want a guaranteed 2nd staff member onboard at all times. Currently the Strathclyde Manning Agreement only stipulates a 2nd person must be rostered for the service and allows it to run without that 2nd member of staff. Additional recruitment for Ticket Examiners may be required to ensure that all Strathclyde trains have that guaranteed 2nd member of staff onboard to provide a highly visible presence to passengers but the increased revenue intake from this would most Likely exceed that additional staffing costs.

 

[pompeyfan]

UDS ?

Cheers in advance

Unit de-select, another name for manual SDO

 

[fandroid]

The thing is that Doo is not as safe as you think. You would only hear about death or serious injury. When I worked Doo there were regular ish not so serious instances of people or items getting trapped but as it was sometimes someone jamming an item or themselves in the door to board late , they wouldn't identify themselves due to embarrassment or thinking that they might be in trouble. You just don't hear about it.

People deliberately trying to board late will happen whoever is in charge of the doors.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm sorry, no they aren't. Merseyrail is glacially slow compared to DOO metros the world over.

It's still the fastest operation in the UK with guards by a margin. Though it has clearly got slightly slower, hence the Bromborough Rake/Green Lane fiasco.

 

[fandroid]

The only way to do that is to guarantee a 2nd member of staff on ALL ScotRail trains. It is generally accepted by ASLEF in Scotland that there's almost no likelihood of guards returning to Strathclyde EMU services to operate doors but they absolutely want a guaranteed 2nd staff member onboard at all times. Currently the Strathclyde Manning Agreement only stipulates a 2nd person must be rostered for the service and allows it to run without that 2nd member of staff. Additional recruitment for Ticket Examiners may be required to ensure that all Strathclyde trains have that guaranteed 2nd member of staff onboard to provide a highly visible presence to passengers but the increased revenue intake from this would most Likely exceed that additional staffing costs.

Rather than ASLEF pursuing the end of DOO, they should be campaigning to ensure that the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is observed rigorously with ScotRail taking actions to ensure that the lack of a second person does not become a routine feature or is allowed to drift into a second person regularly being only on a train for part of its journey.

 

[bengley]

Rather than ASLEF pursuing the end of DOO, they should be campaigning to ensure that the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is observed rigorously with ScotRail taking actions to ensure that the lack of a second person does not become a routine feature or is allowed to drift into a second person regularly being only on a train for part of its journey.

Is the ticket inspector on Scotrail DOO trains safety critical?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's still the fastest operation in the UK with guards by a margin. Though it has clearly got slightly slower, hence the Bromborough Rake/Green Lane fiasco.

Going back to the 80s the guard operation was very quick. Doors would be opening before the wheels had stopped turning, would be open for a few seconds then be closed and ding ding, then watch the train out from the open door. I seem to recall originally that the driver didn't reply to the ding ding, which itself saved maybe 2 seconds. It was slightly quicker (due to multiple boarding doors) than a crew operated Routemaster bus.

As time has progressed, various incidents and changes have made it more similar to the much slower guarded operation on other routes, particularly if the guard works from a passenger door.

It is probably as quick as it can be in modern terms without DOO, but it isn't quick. With only one new station added, Ormskirk to Liverpool is now eight whole minutes slower than it was in the 80s, and the units themselves aren't slower.

 

[yorkie]

Can we try to stick to the topic please? I am not sure there is anything to say that hasn't already been, mind!

Is the ticket inspector on Scotrail DOO trains safety critical?

No. If they are unavailable the train can run without them.

 

[Bantamzen]

I have to admit that I've never been sure about DOO. On the one hand I can see why governments might prefer it, and why unions are set against it. And as far as job losses go, I am not in favour of any as a direct result of it. Having a second member of staff onboard, be they just revenue inspecting or acting as a train manager, the travelling public generally prefer this kind of double manning. However if jobs can be kept under DOO, I can see some benefits.

For example in my neck of the woods Shipley is a notoriously difficult station to dispatch from, especially on P2, P3 & P5. The current procedure seems to be for the guard to get to the centre carriages, not always easy at busy times, open the local door walk as far into the platform as possible to check all is clear, then return to release the other doors. The process is then reversed to dispatch. However this in itself causes problems in so much that in the time that the guard releases the local door, walks to check all the other doors, passengers around the single open door will invariably have started to disembark or alight, meaning that the time taken from the first release to all doors opened can be a considerable few seconds, maybe even half a minute. And in the meantime passengers elsewhere will start to fret, and if they see other passengers getting off they will sometimes move through carriages to reach the open local dor. So what could be a 30-60 second stop can take way longer, and with other services often in close attendance time can easily be lost.

Interestingly LNER services are dispatched by Northern station staff, so this always seems to be way more orderly.

 

[43066]

The OBS concept and principle in my mind is the ideal, because of less time involved with dispatch duties so you can't be in the middle of one thing and have to halt and plan all your duties on board with dispatch duties. However it needs to be managed effectively otherwise it becomes pointless.

Good guards can do this anyway, but they are let down by a large percentage who don't balance the two tasks.

Here are my honest thoughts:

I think the GTR model has been done exceptionally badly and there’s a little too much “disinterestedly staring into phones” going on, for my taste. As a passenger I don’t feel much of a different experience to being on a true DOO Thameslink. And the Thameslink announcements are usually clearer...

SE guards, on a very similar network, on very similar stock, seem night and day better. Outside the metro area it’s driver release, guard dispatch and they seem proactively involved throughout. I suspect that’s as a result of being directly involved in the process of operating the train.

As a driver, once I’ve taken on dispatch responsibility, I don’t see much benefit in an OBS. I’m honestly not sure whether I’d rather have someone like that aboard or just go back to full one-man-band DOO, where I don’t have to worry about another member of staff who is just another passenger, can’t actually reset passcoms etc. Either way, I am the one who will have to go back if anything happens, in addition to the main act of getting the thing from A to B. I might as well just do without the OBS and take the pay rise….

Make no mistake; that type of DOO is a non experience for passengers. As a driver I will make an announcement if I’m scared people might self evacuate. And frankly, if things kick off, I’m going to do my best to ignore it and I’m more likely to exit the train via sprinting down the tracks than to go back into the train…

The “Strathclyde Electrics” sounds like the OBS model, and I’m not sure how reflective it is, as it’s a tiny network?

It should be of no surprise that passengers like the ScotRail system, where staff are consistently friendly, proactive and highly visible (unlike on, for example TPE!)

But they aren’t proactive and highly visible *because they aren’t guards*. The reality is you’re more likely to encounter nobody at all on DOO trains.

so probably no rush to spend money until there is .

So why is the government perpetuating an industrial dispute over the issue?

 

[Bikeman78]

This example is from Germany; Presumably there are no equivalent examples from the UK to quote?

I've been on a train in Belgium where the same thing happened, on a train with a guard. Train departed with someone wedged in the doors. No door interlock on the old M2 carriages. Someone pulled the passcom within a few seconds. Luckily the old 62 diesels pulled away fairly slowly on load seven.

 

[Carlisle]

So why is the government perpetuating an industrial dispute over the issue?

Probably because they failed to achieve many of the original reforms proposed on the back of the McNulty report a few years ago, so they’re making another attempt to do so.

 

[Bikeman78]

The current Transport minister at Holyrood, Jenny Gilruth, consistently talks about the safety of lone women on trains which is good but ASLEF along with the other rail unions in Scotland published a fantastic document last year - A vision for Scotland's Railways and they quite rightly talk about everyone's safety onboard trains!

How does cancelling the train help if the second rostered person doesn't turn up? The vulnerable passengers will then be stuck at stations, most likely unstaffed.

 

[matchmaker]

Here are my honest thoughts:

I think the GTR model has been done exceptionally badly and there’s a little too much “disinterestedly staring into phones” going on, for my taste. As a passenger I don’t feel much of a different experience to being on a true DOO Thameslink. And the Thameslink announcements are usually clearer...

SE guards, on a very similar network, on very similar stock, seem night and day better. Outside the metro area it’s driver release, guard dispatch and they seem proactively involved throughout. I suspect that’s as a result of being directly involved in the process of operating the train.

As a driver, once I’ve taken on dispatch responsibility, I don’t see much benefit in an OBS. I’m honestly not sure whether I’d rather have someone like that aboard or just go back to full one-man-band DOO, where I don’t have to worry about another member of staff who is just another passenger, can’t actually reset passcoms etc. Either way, I am the one who will have to go back if anything happens, in addition to the main act of getting the thing from A to B. I might as well just do without the OBS and take the pay rise….

Make no mistake; that type of DOO is a non experience for passengers. As a driver I will make an announcement if I’m scared people might self evacuate. And frankly, if things kick off, I’m going to do my best to ignore it and I’m more likely to exit the train via sprinting down the tracks than to go back into the train…

The “Strathclyde Electrics” sounds like the OBS model, and I’m not sure how reflective it is, as it’s a tiny network?



Tiny network? It's the largest in the UK after London!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Tiny network? It's the largest in the UK after London!

 

[N0G83]

Could you link to the original post? The only thing I can see on twitter on this subject is from ASLEF (as in the wider union), nothing specific to Scotland?

Edit: I can see that all of their posts on that hashtag end with a sign-off from ASLEF Scotland. Slightly strange as they’re posted on the main account and only some of them are Scotland-specific.

Appologies for the delay, only just picked up again iPad today here is the Tweet link from Twitter “https://twitter.com/aslefunion/status/1605488246892498946?s=61&t=Qmkd_vrcl0D-8U0cNcxDvQ”

 

[Chester1]

Here are my honest thoughts:

I think the GTR model has been done exceptionally badly and there’s a little too much “disinterestedly staring into phones” going on, for my taste. As a passenger I don’t feel much of a different experience to being on a true DOO Thameslink. And the Thameslink announcements are usually clearer...

SE guards, on a very similar network, on very similar stock, seem night and day better. Outside the metro area it’s driver release, guard dispatch and they seem proactively involved throughout. I suspect that’s as a result of being directly involved in the process of operating the train.

As a driver, once I’ve taken on dispatch responsibility, I don’t see much benefit in an OBS. I’m honestly not sure whether I’d rather have someone like that aboard or just go back to full one-man-band DOO, where I don’t have to worry about another member of staff who is just another passenger, can’t actually reset passcoms etc. Either way, I am the one who will have to go back if anything happens, in addition to the main act of getting the thing from A to B. I might as well just do without the OBS and take the pay rise….

Make no mistake; that type of DOO is a non experience for passengers. As a driver I will make an announcement if I’m scared people might self evacuate. And frankly, if things kick off, I’m going to do my best to ignore it and I’m more likely to exit the train via sprinting down the tracks than to go back into the train…

The “Strathclyde Electrics” sounds like the OBS model, and I’m not sure how reflective it is, as it’s a tiny network?



But they aren’t proactive and highly visible *because they aren’t guards*. The reality is you’re more likely to encounter nobody at all on DOO trains.



So why is the government perpetuating an industrial dispute over the issue?

It was a very small when it went DOO but in the last 10 years a lot of lines have been electrified so by non London standards is a now sizable network. Comparing Strathclyde with Southern indicates that the latters problems are due to poor management and training. OBS shouldn't need to be opening and closing doors to sufficiently feel motivated to serve customers.

Works fine on Merseyrail

It doesn't. Tickets are almost optional if you aren't traveling to or from gate lined stations in Birkenhead and Liverpool. There are stops every two or three minutes therefore conductors have very little time to check tickets. The compromise agreed between RMT and Merseyrail for when the 777s are rolled out is that the second person will be safety critical but they will not have a direct role in dispatch. They will look out of the door to see if they need to give assistance and if not (or once assistance has finished), they will tap a key card onto a reader to confirm to the driver that they are onboard. This should considerable increase the time they spend on revenue protection and customer service.

Part of a switch away from the traditional guard / conductor should be changing the name of the job. A safety critical second person that does not dispatch should be called an OBS with (SC) added in documentation etc. As @yorkie has said, most passengers want a second person but they want them to spend most of their time helping passengers and checking tickets. I would barely notice if the Northern services around Manchester went DOO because its rare to see guards walk through the train. That doesn't do them any favours when campaigning against DOO.

 

[bengley]

It was a very small when it went DOO but in the last 10 years a lot of lines have been electrified so by non London standards is a now sizable network. Comparing Strathclyde with Southern indicates that the latters problems are due to poor management and training. OBS shouldn't need to be opening and closing doors to sufficiently feel motivated to serve customers.



It doesn't. Tickets are almost optional if you aren't traveling to or from gate lined stations in Birkenhead and Liverpool. There are stops every two or three minutes therefore conductors have very little time to check tickets. The compromise agreed between RMT and Merseyrail for when the 777s are rolled out is that the second person will be safety critical but they will not have a direct role in dispatch. They will look out of the door to see if they need to give assistance and if not (or once assistance has finished), they will tap a key card onto a reader to confirm to the driver that they are onboard. This should considerable increase the time they spend on revenue protection and customer service.

Part of a switch away from the traditional guard / conductor should be changing the name of the job. A safety critical second person that does not dispatch should be called an OBS with (SC) added in documentation etc. As @yorkie has said, most passengers want a second person but they want them to spend most of their time helping passengers and checking tickets. I would barely notice if the Northern services around Manchester went DOO because its rare to see guards walk through the train. That doesn't do them any favours when campaigning against DOO.

I wasn't talking about revenue since they don't do revenue at the moment anyway. Their dispatch is very fast and efficient.

 

[Chester1]

I wasn't talking about revenue since they don't do revenue at the moment anyway. Their dispatch is very fast and efficient.

Revenue is a rather important aspect of the railways! From a purely operational perspective Merseyrail dispatch works well but from a revenue perspective its terrible. Merseyrail and RMT seem to have found a good compromise for when the 777 fleet is introduced.

 

[43066]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2022 ==

Tiny network? It's the largest in the UK after London!

Is it?! I’ll be honest; I had to google Strathclyde to know it was Glasgow rather than Edinburgh!

Numerous platform staff can recite horror stories about dispatch incidents

Have you asked them? Do you work on the railway yourself? I’m starting to get the sense you do!

Probably because they failed to achieve many of the original reforms proposed on the back of the McNulty report a few years ago, so they’re making another attempt to do so.

Which reforms will the current proposed deal achieve? Widespread DOO certainly isn’t one of them.

OBS shouldn't need to be opening and closing doors to sufficiently feel motivated to serve customers.

Would you be motivated doing that job? I certainly wouldn’t be.

Tickets are almost optional

As they are on most of SE metro. Majority of stations ungated, no staff. Who’d be mug enough to buy a ticket, when you can jump on for a free journey and simply present your contactless card if challenged (no comment on whether I speak from experience there ).

 

[LowLevel]

Training is much of the issue isn't it?

Where do you go? South Eastern badlands level of nothingness IE nobody?

ScotRail ticket examiners who do have a modicum of traction training etc but at present it appears may be missing in action entirely on a regular basis?

GTR on board supervisors who earn a good wedge but hardly need to know what a train is before they get on it and certainly don't need to know where they are in railway terms, except a rudimentary best guess by glancing at a crib sheet and turning on a key at every station whilst they stick their head out of the door before going back to their phone, by all accounts?

A Greater Anglia guard who retains by and large all of the training of a traditional guard include traction and route knowledge but only operates the train in terms of dispatch if it isn't working correctly, on a train which is fitted with all mod cons and can effectively stand in for the driver in most senses bar actually driving the train - and is paid less than a GTR OBS?

I've never worked out why the guard theoretically ceasing to operate the doors is followed by the rest of their training and knowledge being declared irrelevant and unnecessary to start from a blank canvas of a ticket examiner (actually no, it's obviously, it's cheaper!).

This is of course for the purpose of this thread assuming that there is little point in considering the merits of a traditional guard, because in Scotland they don't have them.

 

[D6130]

This is of course for the purpose of this thread assuming that there is little point in considering the merits of a traditional guard, because in Scotland they don't have them.

They do have them on the majority of Scotrail routes....just not on Strathclyde area local electric services since 1986.

 

[Watershed]

Training is much of the issue isn't it?

Where do you go? South Eastern badlands level of nothingness IE nobody?

ScotRail ticket examiners who do have a modicum of traction training etc but at present it appears may be missing in action entirely on a regular basis?

GTR on board supervisors who earn a good wedge but hardly need to know what a train is before they get on it and certainly don't need to know where they are in railway terms, except a rudimentary best guess by glancing at a crib sheet and turning on a key at every station whilst they stick their head out of the door before going back to their phone, by all accounts?

A Greater Anglia guard who retains by and large all of the training of a traditional guard include traction and route knowledge but only operates the train in terms of dispatch if it isn't working correctly, on a train which is fitted with all mod cons and can effectively stand in for the driver in most senses bar actually driving the train - and is paid less than a GTR OBS?

I've never worked out why the guard theoretically ceasing to operate the doors is followed by the rest of their training and knowledge being declared irrelevant and unnecessary to start from a blank canvas of a ticket examiner (actually no, it's obviously, it's cheaper!).

This is of course for the purpose of this thread assuming that there is little point in considering the merits of a traditional guard, because in Scotland they don't have them.

A half-way house between the Greater Anglia and ScotRail Strathclyde solutions would seem a reasonable compromise. Trains shouldn't be cancelled because of a second member of staff being absent, and nor should they be cancelled because of a problem with the CCTV cameras or other DOO equipment.

Of course neither the DfT nor the RMT would be likely to be amenable to such a solution, because it would both mean that guards would cease to be safety-critical, as well as broadly keeping the current cost base. The only person who would benefit would be the passenger - but of course they are the last consideration when it comes to such things!

 

[Ashley Hill]

and nor should they be cancelled because of a problem with the CCTV cameras or other DOO equipment.

So a driver would just press the close button and hope for the best?

 

[Watershed]

So a driver would just press the close button and hope for the best?

No, I'm alluding to the GA solution in this respect - that the second member of staff is trained to dispatch in the event of degraded working. If you're going to have a second member of staff, it seems pretty wasteful not to train them how to do that.

 

[Ashley Hill]

No, I'm alluding to the GA solution in this respect - that the second member of staff is trained to dispatch in the event of degraded working. If you're going to have a second member of staff, it seems pretty wasteful not to train them how to do that.

Fair point.

 

[Chester1]

Would you be motivated doing that job? I certainly wouldn’t be.

As they are on most of SE metro. Majority of stations ungated, no staff. Who’d be mug enough to buy a ticket, when you can jump on for a free journey and simply present your contactless card if challenged (no comment on whether I speak from experience there ).

If people are being recruited into a customer service job they should be. My understanding is that the Southern dispute caused a high turnover of staff so a significant number of OBS were recruited to OBS and are not ex guards. I wouldn't like the OBS job but if I wish to change my job at some point I wouldn't apply for customer facing roles because I am aware I am not suited to them. There is a small but noticable proportion of guards that don't like interacting with the public. Technology is making the technical / operational side of their role redundant and the unions need to think about whether open and closing doors is an issue they are prepared to fight endlessly over. Rail Union leverage has been reduced by WFH and they would be better served by using their leverage to make sure the second person is safety critical and be willing to make it a primarily customer service role.

Ungated stations are another issue. Closing ticket offices, installing TVMS and staff being deployed to gate lines with handheld machines would help at staffed stations. Most Merseyrail stations have a person in a ticket office but no gate line. Its very 20th century and it needs to be modernised to reduce fare evasion. Unstaffed stations will remain a problem though!