The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[Metroland]

Whilst my company continues to make good profits and receive the funding from taxpayers to pay me and my colleagues then I feel that funding should indeed pay their wages or be returned, not used to bolster profits that are already over those budgetted for.

That's an ideological point of view, you could equally argue if shareholders have invested in a company, why shouldn't they get a return? If you don't agree with capitalism, then fine. The problem with people that don't agree they [investors] should get returns on things (and I'm not saying you are in the position) very often have pensions and mortgages and are playing exactly the same game.

I didn't say anything about fare rises being morally right, did I?

Nope, but you don't seem to be all that bothered about them either, where do you think the money comes from? Sure, ATW staff are not directly responsible for them, but they don't seem to want to make any sort of gesture either. As I said, I think it's insensitive and hardly gets the public on side. And no, I don't think wasteful management sitting in leather offices is a much better signal too. I agree, it's an industry problem, but if you read the Mcnulty scoping report, TOC cost rises are largely down to staff.

If the government really intend to run only a railway that requires nil subsidy then that will never happen unless the network is decimated. If so I hope they invest in the roads and I hope you guys who want this and will cheer if we lost our jobs because of that have cars and deep pockets to run them.

First of all I'm probably the most pro-railway person on the forum, ask the regulars. The whole reason I feel strongly about this subject I want more investment in the network not less, for reasons of congestion, social inclusion, the fuel crisis, the environment, and I believe the train is a good way to travel. I certainly won't be cheering, I want to see costs under control because if I make pro-rail arguments, I need to be able to justify it's good value for money in any debate and it's reliable, with a flexible, modern workforce.

 

[313103]

Dear 1V53, i mentioned on page 8 of this thread yesterday, that these people you are arguing with only want you on the job if you will do it for nothing at best or minimum wage at the worst. So your going round and round just like the circle line once did. Your points are being lost to people who are more adept to making their point 'Its their way or the high way'.

They seem to miss that virtually all the bus owning train companies made substantial profits which i hasten to add is not going to them (unless they are of course shareholders of these companies), or to improving the railway as a whole.

I am beginning to wonder whether they are also using the im aright jack (in other words their job is safe and the salary is protected). The one thing they also haven't mentioned is are they getting £50,000 a year or more come to that and would they accept it if their Boss told them your fired! Or going to have to work Sundays at no extra cost to the company.

I suppose they will start on me when i will tell them that i am getting a inflation busting 5.8% (based on the current RPI figures). This will put my salary to the massive £25,800 bracket. I also suppose 1V53 that those with whom your having a debate with wouldnt even set an alarm clock for that amount.

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree it seems low. Perhaps it was 80 applications that were actually read? Discounting the ones that were immediately ruled out due to being incomplete, late, photocpied or whatever?

I dont think we shall ever know,depends who did the sift,an agency? or some other , depends what was being looked for, I have been involved with the psychometric test since day one, some firms who use psycho have had an adjudicator put on a two day course then makes a ruling,when in my opinion the office cat could have done a better job, I have interviewed people with a PHd that have little common sense but fly through a psycho


Bob

 

[1V53]

Dear 1V53, i mentioned on page 8 of this thread yesterday, that these people you are arguing with only want you on the job if you will do it for nothing at best or minimum wage at the worst. So your going round and round just like the circle line once did. Your points are being lost to people who are more adept to making their point 'Its their way or the high way'.

They seem to miss that virtually all the bus owning train companies made substantial profits which i hasten to add is not going to them (unless they are of course shareholders of these companies), or to improving the railway as a whole.

I am beginning to wonder whether they are also using the im aright jack (in other words their job is safe and the salary is protected). The one thing they also haven't mentioned is are they getting £50,000 a year or more come to that and would they accept it if their Boss told them your fired! Or going to have to work Sundays at no extra cost to the company.

I suppose they will start on me when i will tell them that i am getting a inflation busting 5.8% (based on the current RPI figures). This will put my salary to the massive £25,800 bracket. I also suppose 1V53 that those with whom your having a debate with wouldnt even set an alarm clock for that amount.

I am coming to that conclusion now! Despite explaining how the shareholders and the profit margins have been good, I'm given a little lecture in capitalism and told the shareholders should get a return! Despite explaining how the wages have fallen in real terms whilst subsidies and fares have not been returned to the taxpayer I am told employees should "do their bit" (for who?). I've also continued to have irrelevant lectures about competing widget producers or comparisons with commercial operators in a competitive Market by those who then complain we are not subject to competition and acknowledge that they can't build hundreds of extra sets of rails to allow a free open Market. We've even had chuckles suggesting those on the lowest wage would happily help train him to do their job for much less!

So yes I can see why ANorthernGuard has decided to duck out because these people just don't get all the issues at play here. They continue to make irrelevant comparisons and to selectively quote and fail to acknowledge their factually incorrect statements by changing their argument.

Yes. Despite acknowledging railway subsidies must fall (taking the rosco's out of the equation and making railways 'not for profit' would help and also yes get a handle on the wage bill nationally as part of that process), despite pointing out that other TOC's continue to bang out above inflation wage rises whilst still returning huge amounts to shareholders and making good profits whilst still bunging up fares, and despite not being a traindriver anyway, I'm still accused of not being very bright (infraction meted out I think ) being anti-capitalist (which is a laugh as I own shares) and being greedy!!

 

[Greenback]

I dont think we shall ever know,depends who did the sift,an agency? or some other , depends what was being looked for, I have been involved with the psychometric test since day one, some firms who use psycho have had an adjudicator put on a two day course then makes a ruling,when in my opinion the office cat could have done a better job, I have interviewed people with a PHd that have little common sense but fly through a psycho


Bob

I expect there was a large sift to remove those who didn't live close enough for a start!

I am coming to that conclusion now! Despite explaining how the shareholders and the profit margins have been good, I'm given a little lecture in capitalism and told the shareholders should get a return! Despite explaining how the wages have fallen in real terms whilst subsidies and fares have not been returned to the taxpayer I am told employees should "do their bit" (for who?). I've also continued to have irrelevant lectures about competing widget producers or comparisons with commercial operators in a competitive Market by those who then complain we are not subject to competition and acknowledge that they can't build hundreds of extra sets of rails to allow a free open Market. We've even had chuckles suggesting those on the lowest wage would happily help train him to do their job for much less!

So yes I can see why ANorthernGuard has decided to duck out because these people just don't get all the issues at play here. They continue to make irrelevant comparisons and to selectively quote and fail to acknowledge their factually incorrect statements by changing their argument.

Yes. Despite acknowledging railway subsidies must fall (taking the rosco's out of the equation and making railways 'not for profit' would help and also yes get a handle on the wage bill nationally as part of that process), despite pointing out that other TOC's continue to bang out above inflation wage rises whilst still returning huge amounts to shareholders and making good profits whilst still bunging up fares, and despite not being a traindriver anyway, I'm still accused of not being very bright (infraction meted out I think ) being anti-capitalist (which is a laugh as I own shares) and being greedy!!

I really don't think that if the ATW drivers agreed to work every other Sunday for nothing then the government would decide that they didn't need to cut rial subsidies. Nor do i think that cuts in public services has been caused by the fact that librarians, nurses and police officers are overpaid.

The structural mess of the rail industry has a lot to answer for. It's easy to understand why staff want decent rises when they see the private companies boasting about increases in profits, and learn of high salaries and good bonuses for those at the top.

Maybe it would be easier to call for restraint, and the message might be listened to a little more, if there weren't a multitidue of companies creaming off profits here and there. I don;t suppose the architects of privatisation ever envisaged that one of the effects would be far higher wages for train drivers!

I too am going to bow out now, I cna't think of any more to say and I don't think anyone's opinion is going to change!

 

[CosherB]

313103, you are even deeper in LA LA land than some others on here. Again you claim that posters are expecting rail workers to work for min wages! Yet Metro, myself, and others have NEVER suggested anything like that - in fact have stated the opposite.

But hey, let's not let that spoil your rant!

I'm amazed at Metro's patience. He has spelled out the facts of life for you in a most reasonable and understandable way, and STILL you exhibit the characteristics of the obtuse!

What bit of THERE IS NO MORE MONEY do you not understand? Where is it writ in stone that every driver in every TOC should be on the same wages (unlike every other industry)?

What you don't seem to realise is that Metro and myself are not 'railway management', or 'railway anything'. We are concerned about the future of rail as a viable means of transport in UK and don't want to see it destroyed by practices that do not recognise economic reality.

If it does fail, we won't be directly affected other than the inconvenience of there being fewer if any trains. YOU will be unemployed!

 

[Metroland]

Dear 1V53, i mentioned on page 8 of this thread yesterday, that these people you are arguing with only want you on the job if you will do it for nothing at best or minimum wage at the worst. So your going round and round just like the circle line once did. Your points are being lost to people who are more adept to making their point 'Its their way or the high way'.

.

Don't be silly, nobody has mentioned minimum wages, you are grabbing at straws to make an emotional point.

I (like others) are just expressing an opinion that's all, I've already been told 'mind your own business' and 'Whatever you say is irrelevant', so it's hardly my way or the highway is it?

The points have been accepted about terms and conditions, they are perfectly understandable, it's also been accepted that it's a wider industry problems. But it doesn't get away from the fact that everyone must play their part, and just sometimes compromises have to be made. It's quite clear that's not going to happen, and we've been told that much, which doesn't bode well for the future where something has got to give.

We will have to see if any non-railway people agree with you, they may well do. But for those of us with no vested interests (other than perhaps we'd like to use the railways at reasonable cost) seem to be able to see the bigger picture, even though when push comes to shove, we have less to lose.

Finally, please don't make assumptions about mine or anyone else's personal circumstances, it's not only speculation it's also irrelevant to this debate. It's railwaymen who are the ones going on strike (again) and want more tax take/fare rises. You need to justify your position, not us.

 

[TDK]

I'm just hoping they sort it quickly, if ASLEF do keep up then ATW will have to bow down to them quickly or see hell break loose from the passengers, I don't think the general public would mind HALF as much if there was replacement buses shuttling people around but since 1355 today the NWC is home to Virgin Vomits ONLY and considering the WCML reputation for time keeping, the ferry passengers arriving tonight are in for a nasty suprise!

It's horrible for me living in Gobowen now, with the strikes going on this would have given WSMR the perfect opportunity to get ALL the business on the wrexham - wolverhampton branch, never mind eh?

Bring on the return of the services at 0539 off Gobowen on(0505 Chester - Maesteg) Tuesday Morning

Only if there wasn't an ASLE&F picket line at Wrexham

 

[1V53]

313103, you are even deeper in LA LA land than some others on here. Again you claim that posters are expecting rail workers to work for min wages! Yet Metro, myself, and others have NEVER suggested anything like that - in fact have stated the opposite.

But hey, let's not let that spoil your rant!

I'm amazed at Metro's patience. He has spelled out the facts of life for you in a most reasonable and understandable way, and STILL you exhibit the characteristics of the obtuse!

What bit of THERE IS NO MORE MONEY do you not understand? Where is it writ in stone that every driver in every TOC should be on the same wages (unlike every other industry)?

What you don't seem to realise is that Metro and myself are not 'railway management', or 'railway anything'. We are concerned about the future of rail as a viable means of transport in UK and don't want to see it destroyed by practices that do not recognise economic reality.

If it does fail, we won't be directly affected other than the inconvenience of there being fewer if any trains. YOU will be unemployed!

what part of "THE MONEY IS THERE BUT IS BEING CHANNELLED INTO EXTRA PROFITS" do YOU not understand?

There needs to be root and branch reform yes and if that means less funding nationally and reduced profits and wages and subsidies, that's something I would buy into, providing we all share the pain. At the moment the setup is that fares go up, subsidies are high, profits good, dividends good and yet the conditions are tightened and pay rises subdued. So whilst this continues then yes we want our slice rather than Arriva having their cake and ours. When the cake is shrunk then as long as we get our share of the smaller cake then no worries.

 

[The175]

Like a few other members of here, I have joined this forum specifically due to this debate. What amazes me is that it so far runs to 19 pages. contains about 2 pages of actual information, and another 17 pages of bickering, bitching and repetition of personal theories (I know, that is what a forum is for, but 17 pages is excessive surely? If you don't agree, at least just agree to disagree and move on?)

From what I can gather, the ATW POV is that Drivers have rejected a 12% pay offer. The Drivers POV is that the pay rise, while obviously welcome, is not the important factor; it is the conditions and strings connected to said pay rise, in this case, the Sundays.

I'm not in favour of strikes; long term they help neither side involved and in the public transport sector it is the fare paying passenger who comes off worse. I do however feel that staff of any industry should be allowed to stand up for their rights when changes to working conditions are being pushed 'through the back door' as, it appears, is the case here.

ATW need to bare in mind that a work force with low morale will do them few favours, and the same goes for the increasingly frustrated passengers. For this reason I'm quite surprised there was no last minute attempt to find a middle ground in this conflict.

I suspect if ATW offered a low pay rise and asked for further consultation with ASLEF/the drivers on the Sunday issue then the entire thing could have been sorted a long time ago and the industrial action could have been avoided.

 

[Flamingo]

313103, you are even deeper in LA LA land than some others on here. Again you claim that posters are expecting rail workers to work for min wages! Yet Metro, myself, and others have NEVER suggested anything like that - in fact have stated the opposite.

But hey, let's not let that spoil your rant!

I'm amazed at Metro's patience. He has spelled out the facts of life for you in a most reasonable and understandable way, and STILL you exhibit the characteristics of the obtuse!

What bit of THERE IS NO MORE MONEY do you not understand? Where is it writ in stone that every driver in every TOC should be on the same wages (unlike every other industry)?

What you don't seem to realise is that Metro and myself are not 'railway management', or 'railway anything'. We are concerned about the future of rail as a viable means of transport in UK and don't want to see it destroyed by practices that do not recognise economic reality.

If it does fail, we won't be directly affected other than the inconvenience of there being fewer if any trains. YOU will be unemployed!

Captain your I DON'T CARE comment showed that all you are interested in is union bashing, nothing else.

Do you write for the Daily Mail?

 

[TDK]

Captain your I DON'T CARE comment showed that all you are interested in is union bashing, nothing else.

Do you write for the Daily Mail?

If Capatian speaking is an airline pilot and and a strike was called regarding his working conditions would he work?

 

[Flamingo]

One would assume so.

Personally, I think it's Michael O'Leary incognito!

 

[1V53]

We all work on the railways so are obviously all militant no-nothing thickos who are completely divorced from reality, so any criticism of other members is invalid. Any criticism of us though must be correct though as (go to beginning)

Bowing out now until someone else contributes something fresh.

 

[Flamingo]

I expect there was a large sift to remove those who didn't live close enough for a start!

They were all internal applicants, most of whom worked in the depot already.

 

[merlodlliw]

They were all internal applicants, most of whom worked in the depot already.

Of the 80, how many were internal applicants,out of interest


Bob

 

[Flamingo]

Of the 80, how many were internal applicants,out of interest


Bob

all of them

 

[CosherB]

Captain your I DON'T CARE comment showed that all you are interested in is union bashing, nothing else.

How's that, then?

 

[1V53]

I think Flamingo is saying that one minute you say you don't care the next you are wading in criticising staff's attitude and making derogatory comments about their intelligence etc.

If you really don't care, yet you continue to post such comments, then one has to ask oneself why. Most people who really didn't care wouldn't feel the need to keep expressing their opinion to those with limited intelligence who live in lala land and don't listen to you, and would take themselves off to do something far more productive with their time.

 

[Flamingo]

Captain your I DON'T CARE comment showed that all you are interested in is union bashing, nothing else.

How's that, then?

After all your posts claiming how it was greedy unions causing all the trouble, when it was pointed out that your arguments could also be taken as a criticism of management, your response was "I DON'T CARE", not any acknowledgement that it could have been avoided if management had actided in a different way.

Therefore, the only conclusion that can be reached is that you are fixed in your idea that it is the unions fault, and anything that is argued to the contrary (even by yourself) you are ignoring as it does not fit your preconceived ideas you keep expounding in the guise of facts.

There is a psychological term for this, it is called DENIAL

Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

The other term that may cover your posts is Trolling

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Either way, it's still not contributing anything.

edited to add: You are Michael O'Leary and I claim my £10

 

[313103]

313103, you are even deeper in LA LA land than some others on here. Again you claim that posters are expecting rail workers to work for min wages! Yet Metro, myself, and others have NEVER suggested anything like that - in fact have stated the opposite.

But hey, let's not let that spoil your rant!

I'm amazed at Metro's patience. He has spelled out the facts of life for you in a most reasonable and understandable way, and STILL you exhibit the characteristics of the obtuse!

What bit of THERE IS NO MORE MONEY do you not understand? Where is it writ in stone that every driver in every TOC should be on the same wages (unlike every other industry)?

What you don't seem to realise is that Metro and myself are not 'railway management', or 'railway anything'. We are concerned about the future of rail as a viable means of transport in UK and don't want to see it destroyed by practices that do not recognise economic reality.

If it does fail, we won't be directly affected other than the inconvenience of there being fewer if any trains. YOU will be unemployed!

You do not have to say what you really mean. i have read this and other threads and i am getting the same message all the time 'Rail staff wages compared to wages in other industries (often the ones lower then what the rail staff are getting and not wages of those that earn more) quite why my salary should be compared to say a Nurse is beyond me why cant you compare my salary with say my anonymous bank manager?' No of course you cant that would make you look silly. Hows about my salary compared to yours then?

Fear of unemployment has been with me since i become a Guard in 1987, i have already been made surplus to requirements once and if i didnt move i would most certainly have been unemployed. Perhaps i should of taken that option and train as a Commercial pilot and then i would a lovely mansion to live and a very decent uniform where the cost of it doesnt even come into the equation, however i dont like flying so not a real option.

The bit of 'There aint no money left i dont understand' is how comes Arriva (DB), Stagecoach and First group and to a certain degree National Express have in the last year recorded profits in their rail sections, surely if their was no money left those bus companies above would leave the industry quicker then the rats tried to get off the Titanic. Or is it that there is money left but not for the staff? I dont know who to believe, the politicians raining in their salary should be a start as they should set the example to us all. In the age of restraint EVERYBODY should be affected not those at the lower end and the most vulnerable. Do you agree with that?

What about the economic reality? Is it right that the CEO of RBS whose salary can even compare to some of our most expensive football players, can give out millions of pounds of bonuses when his company has for the third year running recorded loses not in millions of pounds but in the billions and this is a company that is publicly owned. Yet when when a group of staff go on strike because the company wont listen to them over enforcement of Sunday working its like these staff are bringing down the Company (in this case Deutsche Bahn, highly unlikely but there we go), they are going to cause mass closures (in this case to the rail industry), what they are asking for is totally unreasonable and that they are holding the country to ransom, if anyone is holding the country to ransom it is people like the CEO of RBS who is taking vast sums of all this money we havent got and to make it stick in the tooth he justifies it!

But i probably dont understand it because i am obtuse!

 

[rodders133]

Lets try and put the whole thing a different way....

This 12% figure is made up of different smaller figures, which are offers to buy certain conditions. They are not figures for a `pay rise`. The company wish to purchase something. This something the company wish to purchase is not for sale. Simples, hence the industrial action, as we are being told, sorry, we wont let you refuse to sell something you have.
The figure for the Sunday commitment is actually only 2.5%, would anyone here seriously sell that condition, being as it is their only guaranteed day off??

Like I and many others have said...., the majority of drivers at ATW want the company to keep their 2.5%, they dont want it, and they dont want more, they simply dont want to sell what ATW want to buy

 

[CosherB]

I think Flamingo is saying that one minute you say you don't care the next you are wading in criticising staff's attitude and making derogatory comments about their intelligence etc.

If you really don't care, yet you continue to post such comments, then one has to ask oneself why. Most people who really didn't care wouldn't feel the need to keep expressing their opinion to those with limited intelligence who live in lala land and don't listen to you, and would take themselves off to do something far more productive with their time.

I DON'T CARE whether the fault is with management or unions - just bleedin sort it out within your industry without foisting your disagreement onto your customers by striking. That's selfish at the very least.

It isn't my dispute. But it is my train service, which I DO care about!

How is that union-bashing?

 

[merlodlliw]

all of them

So only two out of 80 employees were passed as capable of being a guard, what on earth do they do, that's an amazing statistic for an employer advertising an in house vacancy.


Bob

 

[Flamingo]

So only two out of 80 employees were passed as capable of being a guard, what on earth do they do, that's an amazing statistic for an employer advertising an in house vacancy.


Bob

Just pointing out to the "anybody can do it" brigade that "anybody" can't. And the drivers selection is stricter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I DON'T CARE whether the fault is with management or unions - just bleedin sort it out within your industry without foisting your disagreement onto your customers by striking. That's selfish at the very least.

It isn't my dispute. But it is my train service, which I DO care about!

How is that union-bashing?

Stop back-peddling. We all know what you posted.

Either grow a pair and stand by what you said, or grow a bigger pair and admit you might be wrong.

 

[1V53]

I DON'T CARE whether the fault is with management or unions - just bleedin sort it out within your industry without foisting your disagreement onto your customers by striking. That's selfish at the very least.

It isn't my dispute. But it is my train service, which I DO care about!

How is that union-bashing?

As Flamingo ^^ said. And I agree with that sentiment CS, but communication needs both sides to talk, you can't solve a dispute with only one side talking. It's easy to say "sort it out" but unless BOTH sides are prepared to give and take then it is easier said than done.

 

[313103]

I DON'T CARE whether the fault is with management or unions - just bleedin sort it out within your industry without foisting your disagreement onto your customers by striking. That's selfish at the very least.

It isn't my dispute. But it is my train service, which I DO care about!

How is that union-bashing?

How very convenient that you have not bothered to reply to my comment! I am not surprised i did say to a couple on here that it would be highly unlikely so at least you have proved me right. To say you dont is care is an understatement i could quite say that you dont give a Sir Thomas Tittus either way. You are just looking for an argument.

 

[CosherB]

Stop back-peddling. We all know what you posted.

You obviously don't. So here it is, verbatim:

So you are acknowledging that it is managements responsibility as well, and ATW management have a responsibility to try and prevent the situation arising?

Flamingo.. I DON'T CARE! It is not my problem, it is an internal issue within ATW. If I had a problem with my employer I'd have to sort it out. I certainly wouldn't foist it onto my customers by striking!

That means (since you appear to need it spelling out) it is no concern of mine if you and your management have a disagreement. So don't try to make it my problem by withdrawing a train service I might want to use!

I don't suppose you've the balls to apologise for being bloody rude when you're totally in the wrong, but will just bluff it out as usual. :roll:

 

[313103]

Flamingo, do exactly what Captain Speaking is doing to me. IGNORE !

 

[1V53]

Captain constantly selectively posts to make a point yet fails to address any previous points he has made to which a valid reply was made. So you blow his 'facts' out of the water, give a robust response to his opinions and he will focus on a new point or ignore the fact he has been proved wrong altogether.

We'd probably take him a lot more seriously if he took onboard some valid criticism of his 'facts' or opinions when he is factually incorrect, as the problem is he just comes over as a one agenda guy with blinkers on by continually carrying on in this vein, and eventually can only draw the conclusion he is just a stirrer.

I'd love to see him defending his job perks from those who feel he is an overpaid and lazy militant. However it is easy to just keep criticising others.