Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[nw1]

There's also a strong capitalist basis for universal healthcare of some form - a sick workforce isn't productive. Hence why in countries that never had it (e.g. the US), the culture is for employers to provide medical insurance in some form. If they're sick they are not working and are not making money.

But if you're not employed, you're screwed. While there are good things about the US, I do not get their (to me) incredibly primitive and backward approach to health care. It wouldn't be so bad if they had affordable private healthcare (as is the case in some continental countries) but it appears they don't, if some of the horror stories I've heard - first-hand in some cases - are true.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd dispute that unbridled capitalism has ever provided these things. Victorian England was very luxurious if you were a mill owner, but squalid if you weren't.

Sure, there were dreadful inequalities in Victorian England, and to some extent that reflects that capitalism isn't very good at distributing wealth (It probably also reflected the nature of society at the time, with lots of class-based prejudice etc.). But you still need capitalism to create the wealth in the first place. It was largely thanks to capitalism (and the technological innovations that capitalism leads to) that average living standards rose so much during the 19th and 20th centuries, and it was thanks to social reforms (which in some cases were inspired by socialist ideas) that that wealth gradually became better distributed.

No system taken to extremes work, communism doesn't work either.

I would agree. I think that in practice, there's no one philosophy that's exclusively correct. A decent society that enables everyone to live a fulfilling life requires pragmatically taking ideas from all of capitalism, socialism, liberalism and conservatism.

 

[Yew]

There's also a strong capitalist basis for universal healthcare of some form - a sick workforce isn't productive. Hence why in countries that never had it (e.g. the US), the culture is for employers to provide medical insurance in some form. If they're sick they are not working and are not making money.

We can't let pragmatism get in the way of meeting our short term KPI's.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

I was a bit concerned when I saw the poll below:
LAB: 42% (-5) CON: 31% (+5) LDEM: 10% (-) REF: 5% (-) GRN: 3% (+1) this was from a pollster called Savanta UK but although other polls still show a good Labour lead this shows the Labour lead cut to just 11 points - a 10 point drop in the Labour lead - Yes it is just one poll and this movement is not reflected in other polls but I am just asking what could have caused this movement nothing particularly major politically going on this week.

Just asking this as I do want to see the Tories loose the next election I think they will but seeing such a poll says it may not be as much as a done deal as some think - I certainly don't want to see a repeat of 1992.

 

[brad465]

Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting appears to be taking an unusual line in attacking the Health Unions and demanding they allow NHS reform, according to The Sunday Telegraph front page:

Tomorrow's Papers Today - UK Front Pages - Latest Newspaper Headlines

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

EDIT: Streeting has issued some form of disclaimer:

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1601706819713654784

Not the headline I expected... The BMA needs to accept that Labour’s plans to train 7,500 more doctors a year must be met with higher standards for patients. In contrast, other health unions are being reasonable - it’s the government who are stubbornly refusing to negotiate.

 

[Thirteen]

I've always thought the Tories attacking Labour for strikes was daft because Labour can be critical of unions as well but are not anti union.

 

[oldman]

Shadow Health Secretary Wes Streeting appears to be taking an unusual line in attacking the Health Unions and demanding they allow NHS reform, according to The Sunday Telegraph front page:

You can always rely on the Telegraph for fairness and honesty when reporting on Labour. There is specific criticism of the BMA, not 'the health unions' as in the headline. Beyond that there is the usual Labour position that in government they will not always give the unions what they want. Describing that as 'vows war' is ludicrous.

 

[Kite159]

You can always rely on the Telegraph for fairness and honesty when reporting on Labour. There is specific criticism of the BMA, not 'the health unions' as in the headline. Beyond that there is the usual Labour position that in government they will not always give the unions what they want. Describing that as 'vows war' is ludicrous.

Until the unions start threatening to withdraw funding resulting in another U-turn from Keir

 

[brad465]

Something I didn't realise until today is that there is a by-election today in Stretford and Urmston, as Kate Green stepped down to become Deputy Mayor of Greater Manchester. It is a very safe Labour seat and the fact it hasn't had much press coverage suggests this will be a foregone conclusion:

Stretford and Urmston by-election: Polling stations open

Nine candidates are vying to become the new MP for Stretford and Urmston in Greater Manchester.

www.bbc.co.uk

Polling stations have opened for the Stretford and Urmston by-election in Greater Manchester.
Nine candidates are bidding to replace Kate Green, who replaces Baroness Bev Hughes as the city region's deputy mayor.
Labour's Ms Green, who was first elected in 2010, said being an MP had been "an enormous privilege".
Voting will take place until 22:00 GMT, with the result expected to be declared in the early hours of Friday morning.

The nine candidates, listed in alphabetical order, are:

Emily Carter-Kandola (Conservative)
Anna Fryer (Liberal Democrats)
Hazel Gibb (Independent)
Christina Glancy (Freedom Alliance)
Dan Jerrome (Green Party)
Jim Newell (Rejoin EU)
Paul Swansborough (Reform UK)
Andrew Western (Labour)
Julien Yvon (Social Democratic Party)

 

[birchesgreen]

Easy Labour win up 9.3%, Tories down 11.7% though the turnout was very low (but probably not that surprising).

 

[Kite159]

Easy Labour win up 9.3%, Tories down 11.7% though the turnout was very low (but probably not that surprising).

Ignoring the large drop of votes from 30,195 to 12,828. Looks like even in the heartlands of the party of restrictions the voters have been turned off with barely 26% turnout

No doubt Sir Keir will be celebrating and will try to spin winning a safe seat as a massive victory for his views of sitting on the fence

 

[Butts]

Ignoring the large drop of votes from 30,195 to 12,828. Looks like even in the heartlands of the party of restrictions the voters have been turned off with barely 26% turnout

No doubt Sir Keir will be celebrating and will try to spin winning a safe seat as a massive victory for his views of sitting on the fence

Pathetic turnout somewhat akin to that of a Local Council Election.

 

[oldman]

It's not unusual to have low turnout in foregone-conclusion by-elections, usually in inner-city constituencies where it's often low to start with. Wikipedia has a list, with a record of 18.2% in Manchester Central in 2012.

 

[gg1]

It's not unusual to have low turnout in foregone-conclusion by-elections, usually in inner-city constituencies where it's often low to start with. Wikipedia has a list, with a record of 18.2% in Manchester Central in 2012.

Indeed, especially when you factor in the horrible weather and the fact that by-election received no national media coverage in the weeks running up to it.

 

[nr758123]

It's not unusual to have low turnout in foregone-conclusion by-elections, usually in inner-city constituencies where it's often low to start with. Wikipedia has a list, with a record of 18.2% in Manchester Central in 2012.

I've voted in every election except one, local general and European, over the 35+ years since I became old enough to vote. Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week, had I lived in Stretford even I might have been tempted to give this one a miss.

 

[GS250]

Funny looking at the title of this thread really. Only a complete hatchet job by the media can prevent Labour from getting in at the next election.

 

[brad465]

Funny looking at the title of this thread really. Only a complete hatchet job by the media can prevent Labour from getting in at the next election.

Well the Daily Mail certainly tried that regarding "Beer gate", only for the subsequent thorough police investigation to clear him of wrongdoing.

 

[Yew]

Funny looking at the title of this thread really. Only a complete hatchet job by the media can prevent Labour from getting in at the next election.

Have you even seen a tabloid newspaper?

 

[GS250]

Well the Daily Mail certainly tried that regarding "Beer gate", only for the subsequent thorough police investigation to clear him of wrongdoing.

To be fair though, given SKS's connections within the legal profession you do have to ask how impartial that investigation was?

Either way the worst Labour can hope for is a small majority. Even fairly consistent Tory voters I know are not going to vote for Sunak and his status quo policies.

 

[brad465]

To be fair though, given SKS's connections within the legal profession you do have to ask how impartial that investigation was?

Either way the worst Labour can hope for is a small majority. Even fairly consistent Tory voters I know are not going to vote for Sunak and his status quo policies.

Has there been any uncovering that Starmer lent on the investigation? If the Daily Mail were fronting that story as much as they were they or someone else would have covered such a thing, and given the seriousness of such behaviour Starmer would almost certainly have had to resign were that to come out with concrete evidence of such behaviour.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

To be fair though, given SKS's connections within the legal profession you do have to ask how impartial that investigation was?

Either way the worst Labour can hope for is a small majority. Even fairly consistent Tory voters I know are not going to vote for Sunak and his status quo policies.

What people say now and what they do on the day will be fundamentally different. Reality is Starmer is sitting on the fence too much letting the Tories eat themselves up but at some point they will need to come clean about what they are offering. Personally whilst id be happy to see Tories out what we really need is an overhaul of the way the country is governed and move to a PR approach. Yes its fraught with problems but flip flopping between Labour or Tories hasn't move the country forward and grand coalitions force more accommodative behaviours and in other countries have led to long term stability and certainly benefitted public transport. Too many vested interest here in both Labour and Tories means nothing will change.

 

[Herefordian]

Ignoring the large drop of votes from 30,195 to 12,828. Looks like even in the heartlands of the party of restrictions the voters have been turned off with barely 26% turnout

No doubt Sir Keir will be celebrating and will try to spin winning a safe seat as a massive victory for his views of sitting on the fence

Pathetic turnout somewhat akin to that of a Local Council Election.

It was a by-election and the weather has been poor.

Why are some Conservative voters more bothered about Labour?

I really don't get it.

 

[birchesgreen]

Try and deflect from their own poor performance?

 

[Herefordian]

Try and deflect from their own poor performance?

Maybe they're worried Labour might win the next election.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why are some Conservative voters more bothered about Labour?

Presumably they need to try and seek some comfort from the dire state of their own party by pretending that Labour are in a terrible state

 

[brad465]

Maybe they're worried Labour might win the next election.

When Kwarteng sunk the markets, Lord Ashcroft claimed it was because they were fearing the next Government would be Labour-run.

 

[Broucek]

As a natural centre-right voter, I utterly despair of this government's lack of basic grip

I felt the same way in 1997 and voted for the Blair-led Labour party (and would do so again with hindsight).

But I'm slightly less confident with the current Labour front bench. Rachel Reeves is a LOT less impressive than Gordon Brown and I find it hard to forget that a) the party recently campaigned actively for someone utterly unsuitable to become PM* and b) tried to undo the Brexit vote (and I voted Remain)

* I'm aware that Liz Truss has lowered the bar considerably, but she looks like a genius next to Corbyn

 

[GS250]

As a natural centre-right voter, I utterly despair of this government's lack of basic grip

I felt the same way in 1997 and voted for the Blair-led Labour party (and would do so again with hindsight).

But I'm slightly less confident with the current Labour front bench. Rachel Reeves is a LOT less impressive than Gordon Brown and I find it hard to forget that a) the party recently campaigned actively for someone utterly unsuitable to become PM* and b) tried to undo the Brexit vote (and I voted Remain)

* I'm aware that Liz Truss has lowered the bar considerably, but she looks like a genius next to Corbyn

Exactly how I feel. The cross channel immigration fiasco sums them up. However those blocking the government's attempts to do something about it are very much Starmer's circle of wealthy left wing lawyer types.

 

[brad465]

As a natural centre-right voter, I utterly despair of this government's lack of basic grip

I felt the same way in 1997 and voted for the Blair-led Labour party (and would do so again with hindsight).

But I'm slightly less confident with the current Labour front bench. Rachel Reeves is a LOT less impressive than Gordon Brown and I find it hard to forget that a) the party recently campaigned actively for someone utterly unsuitable to become PM* and b) tried to undo the Brexit vote (and I voted Remain)

* I'm aware that Liz Truss has lowered the bar considerably, but she looks like a genius next to Corbyn

Most of this would make sense if Corbyn a) Still had the Labour whip, b) was vocal in the mainstream media and/or c) is part of the Shadow Cabinet, and/or any of his allies be part of it. None of these 3 things are active, so they've distanced themselves from him and his part about as much as it's possible to do in 3 years. On undoing the Brexit vote, I think they and the Lib Dems have learned that lesson, as neither are demanding re-joining ASAP, and in Labour's case they're even ruling out single market membership (although whoever wins the next election will have to do something on the matter of EU ties, as the agreement with them is due for renegotiation in 2026 (i.e. every 5 years under the signed terms).

Exactly how I feel. The cross channel immigration fiasco sums them up. However those blocking the government's attempts to do something about it are very much Starmer's circle of wealthy left wing lawyer types.

“If you can catch about 100 red fire ants that live in the southwestern desert and also about 100 of those large black ants that live there and drop them in the same jar, not much will happen– until you shake the jar vigorously and dump them out on the ground. The red ants will attack the black ants and the black ants will attack the red ants and they’ll devastate each other. The thing is, the red ants think the enemy is the black ants and the black ants think the enemy is the red ants and all those ants put together never do figure out that the real enemy is the guy who shook the jar.” - unknown author

 

[Herefordian]

Presumably they need to try and seek some comfort from the dire state of their own party by pretending that Labour are in a terrible state

It's hilarious.

Maybe they should worry about their own party's issues instead.