In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm not suggesting the workers are continuing to strike mainly because they're not happy with the pay offer (although no doubt a minority are still after something ridiculous like 12%). However, the point still stands that continuing the strike (rightly or wrongly) is chipping away at the extra earnings which will come about when the pay offer is finally resolved.

It is but it also means by continuing to strike they don’t for now end up with the new (worse for strikers) T&Cs.

 

[43066]

because the strikes and the knock-on effect on the rail industry and economy in general are slowly losing the savings the government hope to make through the rail cuts

Of course you’re right this doesn’t make sense… Until you remember that the government has acted in a belligerent manner throughout and indeed (on the TOC side) actively sought to prevent a deal being agreed.

The government is effectively playing politics and prolonging this dispute at the expensive of others - at enormous cost to both the railway and wider economy.

(although no doubt a minority are still after something ridiculous like 12%). However, the point still stands that continuing the strike (rightly or wrongly) is chipping away at the extra earnings which will come about when the pay offer is finally resolved.

12% is probably unrealistic, but I’d disagree it’s ridiculous in the context of inflation around that figure (10-12% depending on measure) - remembering that any numerical “rise” less than the inflation is a real terms pay cut! Let’s also stop pretending the RMT membership as a whole won’t settle for a lot less than this - we know that just by looking at the figures accepted in Scotland and Wales.

Don’t forget a pay rise isn’t just about the immediate figure versus pay lost that year, it also becomes baked in for future years. Poor rises for a period can easily lead to a huge reduction in real terms earnings - many public sector workers now earn 10-15% less (in real terms) than they did a decade or two ago. That will be made exponentially worse if the poor rises occur during periods of high inflation.

See below:

How public sector pay has fallen in real terms – in charts

Guardian analysis of ONS data shows public sector earnings have fallen in real terms by 4.3% since the financial crisis

amp.theguardian.com

(Link is to chart showing relatively fall in real terms earnings for various public sector roles).

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm not suggesting the workers are continuing to strike mainly because they're not happy with the pay offer (although no doubt a minority are still after something ridiculous like 12%). However, the point still stands that continuing the strike (rightly or wrongly) is chipping away at the extra earnings which will come about when the pay offer is finally resolved.

Most people are fully aware they won't be getting a 12% pay rise and would happily settle for considerably less. There has been NO offer at all for the vast majority of TOC staff as yet.

However, it's interesting that you consider 12% 'ridiculous' when the current RPI is actually 14% so any pay rise less than that is a real-terms pay cut, and if you're happy with prices rising by 14% annually then I believe you're in a very small minority.

 

[Philip]

I used 12% as a ridiculous example because of the cost of living crisis; I think nurses asking for 19% is even more unreasonable, but that's for another thread. We're going to have to accept pay rises well below inflation at the moment because of the state of the economy.

My concern is that we seem to be at a stalemate regarding the changes to T&Cs. Both the RMT and the government really need to get their heads together for the good of everyone and come to a compromise. For the government, this would mean no worsening T&Cs and no compulsory redundancies for a longer time-span than the 15 months offered last week. For the RMT, they may have to accept an increase in DOO or DCO, but without any guards being displaced from the train - so a guarantee of two SC members of staff remaining onboard all trains where already present, just with drivers opening/closing the doors but with the guard continuing to step off the train to check the platform is clear.

 

[zwk500]

I used 12% as a ridiculous example because of the cost of living crisis; I think nurses asking for 19% is even more unreasonable, but that's for another thread. We're going to have to accept pay rises well below inflation at the moment because of the state of the economy.

If you don't mind me asking, does 'we' in this context mean you are a public sector worker?

My concern is that we seem to be at a stalemate regarding the changes to T&Cs. Both the RMT and the government really need to get their heads together for the good of everyone and come to a compromise. For the government, this would mean no worsening T&Cs and no compulsory redundancies for a longer time-span than the 15 months offered last week. For the RMT, they may have to accept an increase in DOO or DCO, but without any guards being displaced from the train - so a guarantee of two SC members of staff remaining onboard all trains where already present, just with drivers opening/closing the doors but with the guard continuing to step off the train to check the platform is clear.

How do you propose convincing people that these will be the limits, and not a 'thin end of the wedge'. You're asking for a Tory government and Trade Unions to take each other in good faith...

 

[43066]

For the RMT, they may have to accept an increase in DOO or DCO, but without any guards being displaced from the train

But what appears to be being demanded is an open ended commitment to DOO as an abstract concept, without any assurances along the lines you describe. That’s because this demand was never intended to be a serious point of discussion, it was inserted by the government specifically to prevent a deal being agreed.

so a guarantee of two SC members of staff remaining onboard all trains where already present, just with drivers opening the doors

Drivers opening (and even closing) the doors isn’t the issue, it’s drivers taking dispatch risk that is the sticking point. This is also nothing to do with the RMT side of the dispute.

 

[Philip]

If you don't mind me asking, does 'we' in this context mean you are a public sector worker?

I work in the railway so yes.

How do you propose convincing people that these will be the limits, and not a 'thin end of the wedge'. You're asking for a Tory government and Trade Unions to take each other in good faith...

The government need to offer guarantees to the unions over a reasonable timescale (at least to the end of the current government in just over 2 years). I think the RMT should consider what I have suggested above, providing there are long term guarantees in place from the government.

 

[142blue]

Can I ask the mods on this site to keep the subject of this thread back on track as I feel it's veering off again.

Anyway anyone have a clue what Northern are doing next week?

 

[43066]

The government need to offer guarantees to the unions over a reasonable timescale (at least to the end of the current government in just over 2 years).

Guarantees of what, exactly?! The end of the current government could also be a lot sooner than just over two years if prior experience is anything to go by…

I think the RMT should consider what I have suggested above, providing there are long term guarantees in place from the government.

Perhaps they would, but no such guarantees are on the table, hence the action taking place. So it’s a moot point.

Can I ask the mods on this site to keep the subject of this thread back on track as I feel it's veering off again.

Anyway anyone have a clue what Northern are doing next week?

Fair point.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Anyway anyone have a clue what Northern are doing next week?

Trying to work out what Northern will do 7 minutes in advance can be tricky, never mind 7 days. According to Northern's website not even they know what they are doing next week. Mon - Fri all say expect disruption, check before you travel - and that's it.

 

[zwk500]

The government need to offer guarantees to the unions over a reasonable timescale (at least to the end of the current government in just over 2 years). I think the RMT should consider what I have suggested above, providing there are long term guarantees in place from the government.

Why should the RMT trust anything given by the government?

 

[Bantamzen]

You’re not striking yourself, then?!

Nope, I've seen the demands from my union and they a laughable. I'm not losing money for a combination of at least 10% pay rise, reduced working hours without pay loss, 35 days minimum annual leave and the return to collective bargaining across the civil service. At least not under the current climate. Don't get me wrong I'd love it all, but can you imagine the public's response to that, for the civil service? Can you imagine the government's? Can you imagine yours?

Nah mate, I'm not daft enough to follow like a PCS lemming for this hopeless cause. As you know I say, pick yer battles....

 

[Goldfish62]

Most people are fully aware they won't be getting a 12% pay rise and would happily settle for considerably less. There has been NO offer at all for the vast majority of TOC staff as yet.

However, it's interesting that you consider 12% 'ridiculous' when the current RPI is actually 14% so any pay rise less than that is a real-terms pay cut, and if you're happy with prices rising by 14% annually then I believe you're in a very small minority.

The point there is that the inflation rate is an average of price rises for the 12 months to date. As all trade unions recognise the bargaining point is the inflation rate at the pay anniversary date.

If inflation were to suddenly drop to 4% in February and the dispute were still going on would the unions accept an offer of 4% backdated to now, when inflation is over 10%? As a rep I wouldn't accept that.

 

[brick60000]

Understand the pressure on Planners but as above, late start-ups after a Signallers' strike day have already been planned and have operated.

Yes - but on a previous TT. The goalposts have moved, so a new plan is required.

 

[Killingworth]

Trying to work out what Northern will do 7 minutes in advance can be tricky, never mind 7 days. According to Northern's website not even they know what they are doing next week. Mon - Fri all say expect disruption, check before you travel - and that's it.

RTT seems to show normal timetables for my line, but that's the difficulty with action short of a strike. It's unpredictable as events occur and minimal reserve capacity to be called on. Like today the Hope Valley tunnels were effectively blocked by icicles so very little has run (none by Northern), and what has run will be well out of planned paths with crews and units in the wrong places with knock-on effects.

 

[43066]

Nope, I've seen the demands from my union and they a laughable. I'm not losing money for a combination of at least 10% pay rise, reduced working hours without pay loss, 35 days minimum annual leave and the return to collective bargaining across the civil service. At least not under the current climate. Don't get me wrong I'd love it all, but can you imagine the public's response to that, for the civil service? Can you imagine the government's? Can you imagine yours?

Nah mate, I'm not daft enough to follow like a PCS lemming for this hopeless cause. As you know I say, pick yer battles....

Well, if you don’t ask, you don’t get! Rolling over for a tummy tickle might well be your favoured approach, but the railway unions clearly adopt a different and rather more hard nosed approach to these matters, one I happen to admire. To quote someone who tends not to post on here:

In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.

In other words: man up a bit, chap!…

 

[Starmill]

If you don't mind me asking, does 'we' in this context mean you are a public sector worker?

Another way to look at it, economy-wide, would be to say that all real incomes are going down because the UK's balance of payments deficit has grown. This has to be paid for somehow, and falling real incomes are one of the more sensible options in that regard. However, that doesn't of course address the question over how that fall in real income should be distributed.

Some people will no doubt seek to have a go about that, but regardless of your view as to the split of causal factors for the larger trade deficit it's there alright, and it has to be paid for. Literally the only alternative is to buy fewer goods or services from abroad, and unfortunately that's really not an option in the near term. The food, fuel and electricity which we buy from abroad is obviously essential.

 

[43066]

Another way to look at it, economy-wide, would be to say that all real incomes are going down

That would also be a lie…

 

[zwk500]

That would also be a lie…

Would it? Even bankers' salaries aren't rising at the rate of inflation, are they?

 

[43066]

Would it? Even bankers' salaries aren't rising at the rate of inflation, are they?

The statement was that “all” real incomes are going down…. Do seriously believe that’s the case?!

Boris Johnson earned over £1m in the last four months alone. Good for him, I say.

Boris Johnson makes £1m from speeches after leaving Downing Street

Former prime minister, who is still a sitting MP, travelled across globe in two months after stepping down

www.theguardian.com

 

[Philip]

Well, if you don’t ask, you don’t get! Rolling over for a tummy tickle might well be your favoured approach, but the railway unions clearly adopt a different and rather more hard nosed approach to these matters, one I happen to admire. To quote someone who tends not to post on here:

In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.

In other words: man up a bit, chap!…

Considering the situation with the railways right now, I don't think the RMT can afford to be too hard-nosed about it.

Why should the RMT trust anything given by the government?

Can't afford to be deciding on offers based on trust; as soon as the government gives the go ahead to a reasonable and fair compromise like the one I suggested above, the RMT must put it to the members with either a neutral stance or a recommendation to accept and bring an end to this mess. Any future renaging by the government can be dealt with at the time.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Understand the pressure on Planners but as above, late start-ups after a Signallers' strike day have already been planned and have operated.

Not on the current (December 2022) timetable have they been planned or operated. There was a timetable change last weekend!

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, if you don’t ask, you don’t get! Rolling over for a tummy tickle might well be your favoured approach, but the railway unions clearly adopt a different and rather more hard nosed approach to these matters, one I happen to admire. To quote someone who tends not to post on here:

In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.

In other words: man up a bit, chap!…

Well if by man up you mean I throw good money after bad for a cause that clearly isn't going to bring dividends, and in a prolonged dispute could actually cost more than you gain, then nah thanks but no thanks. There are better and more fun ways to urinate cash up the wall in Nevada, US.

Every now and again you have to weigh up the odds, is the gamble worth the risk or is the house going to take you to the cleaners. In the instance of current disputes in various sectors the house has made it clear, they intend to win.

Union disputes are not wars, they are games of poker. Sometimes you have to read the opposition and know when to tactically fold to save your stack for another deal...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Absolutely baffling how they can’t run any trains at all through the Calder valley

Could be two reasons, one will certainly be the coverage of two workstations one part comes under Preston PSB the other is the "Halifax" pannel at York ROC. Otherwise a Leeds fast to Brighouse then Sowerby Bridge, Mythomroyd, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden strike service could have ran with the Todmorden end using the crossover east of the station. Its not as if nothing could run as one unit "in steam" could shuttle back and forth between Leeds and Todmorden within 50 minuntes, as it takes 20 to travel non-stop between Leeds and Brighouse. The other reason will be management availability on who could run what.

 

[Starmill]

Would it? Even bankers' salaries aren't rising at the rate of inflation, are they?

Well, bankers' salaries aren't an economy wide income - not yet at least

Whether you measure it as government income, worker income or private business income, or indeed one of the measures of output, economy-wide it is all the same thing at the end of the day, and it's going down rather than up.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Something that makes me increasingly annoyed, is attempts of more militant rail staff on here to trivialise points of view they don't agree with by branding them "attempts to be controversial/wind people up" or "digging a hole," which is a rather sly attempt to make others dismiss said opposing points of view as spam or troublemaking.

In my own opinion, some of the more millitant people should try and do the job that I previously did for a living (non railway) you'd be on the recieving end of misanderist behaviour, getting told that your doing the job wrong yet you were trained to do the job the same way that your currently doing. You'd have people from other sections invading your section telling you that your doing it wrong before running to the manager, you'd have the same handful of millitant misanderist staff either waving knives, using threatening behaviour or demanding to the management that the place needed a set of extra policies just for the male staff - basically an excuse to get rid of the blokes. Plus you wasn't paid right as management would chop and change your hours without telling you and would pay you incorrectly, the section I was in you were suppose to be paid £11 an hour, instead I was fobbed off with £9.50 an hour after the management refused to correct it.

I ended up joining a union with four other blokes (one of whom was nominated as the representative) I worked with because of the constant misanderist behaviour and the poor industrial relations. In the end and after speaking to the union that I was with I went on strike for one full working week. I later left the company because of health reasons and didn't bother renewing my union membership when I started my current job.

The strike that I did wasn't anything to do with the cost of living or demanding a pay rise but the working conditions and the behavior or management towards male employees.

 

[TUC]

If you're going to mark any of those three characteristic as "unrepresentative" then you're excluding a huge part of the population. Arguably what's left would in itself be unrepresentative.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

I'm saying those characteristics taken together make London highly unrepresentative. Disregarding Londin from surveys would give you 60m out of 70m people-hard to say that would be unrepresentative of the country.

 

[Mag_seven]

As the question as posed by the OP has now been answered we will bring this one to a close now.