In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

[urbophile]

As ever with planning ideas, planners might like it for neatness, but many people prefer more relexed, small town/rural living.

And many people don't, and would prefer to live in cities with a reliable infrastructure. Trouble is, those who profit from individualist consumerism call the tune, and make it difficult to implement a London-style transport system in the city regions. Which aren't all that different from London except in terms of scale. Here in Liverpool as in many other cities we have the basics of the infrastructure; it just needs better planning and integrating. What's holding that up? I would guess, competition between bus operators and an uncoordinated rail system.

 

[12LDA28C]

The RMT overtime ban will probably have limited short term effect. The majority of cancellations at TOCs are because of driver shortages and ASLEF rest day bans. Service levels will be similar to last Monday. Training can be paused to see out a few weeks, although briefs etc can happen on days like today, this will of course have long term effects.

I do know that at Northern the last few weeks have brought forward a number of driver/guard (especially driver) retirements. More than usual have thought 'I've had enough now'. Again this will have knock on effects next year as it takes more than the 6 months notice period to train a driver.

Not sure this is true at all. The RMT overtime ban will certainly have a huge impact at TOCs who rely on guards, maintenance staff etc working overtime and Rest Days to cover the day-to-day service.

Do Northern really insist on a 6 month notice period if a driver wishes to leave? That sounds most unusual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

They already exist - You can go to San Francisco and get them from most parts of the city. Phoenix too. In the coming months LA, Austin and many cities in China

The UK will be later of course but I imagine London will have them by 2025 and they will be widespread throughout the country by the early 2030's

They already had them in the film 'Total Recall' of course, made in 1990.

'Johnny Cab', wasn't it?

 

[Ken H]

And many people don't, and would prefer to live in cities with a reliable infrastructure. Trouble is, those who profit from individualist consumerism call the tune, and make it difficult to implement a London-style transport system in the city regions. Which aren't all that different from London except in terms of scale. Here in Liverpool as in many other cities we have the basics of the infrastructure; it just needs better planning and integrating. What's holding that up? I would guess, competition between bus operators and an uncoordinated rail system.

There were bus strikes in Leeds when I was a kid (60's, 70's). Dad walked 3 miles to work and back on the days he could not get a lift from a colleague. The city was small enough to allow people to walk instead of using the bus.
But London is a different kettle of fish as many people commute very long distances.
But things have changed now because of people fleeing the cities.

 

[D6130]

Do Northern really insist on a 6 month notice period if a driver wishes to leave? That sounds most unusual.

Yes....because, for many years, they have been haemorrhaging drivers at an alarming rate in favour of the Inter-City and freight companies. Ever since privatisation, the regional passenger TOCs have been regarded as 'training grounds' for new entrant drivers who, after a few years, leave for more interesting, challenging and lucrative work with those companies who only advertise for experienced drivers. While I was a driver at Skipton, we lost many drivers to Virgin West Coast at Preston, GNER/ICEC and Cross-Country at Leeds, TPE at Manchester Piccadilly, EWS & Freightliner at Knottingley and Healey Mills....and even two to Eurostar. As Northern are the biggest regional passenger operator, they are the most vunerable to this phenomenon. That having been said, I know of several Northern drivers who have obtained posts with GBRf, who have managed to negotiate shorter notice periods (three months, I believe?) on an individual basis.

 

[Bald Rick]

does Northern still depend on volunteers for Sundays, a 1980s situation surely?!!

Yes they do.

 

[Philip]

In terms of the TOCs dispute, if the following deal was put to the RMT by the RDG, what is the likelihood of both the union and the government accepting it:

DOO to be trialled across all TOCs but only on some services rather than all, with a review in 2026.
No compulsory redundancies until Jan 2025 at the earliest.
Some ticket offices to close but not all - closure vs remaining open dependant on certain criteria.
A new station role involving tickets & customer service enquiries and possibly dispatch combined to be introduced at the bigger stations, meaning a greater staff presence.
35hr week to remain in place with no changes to AL/Sick pay/Maternity/Pensions etc.
Sundays to be left up to each individual TOC to decide.
4+4% pay rise for this year and next.

 

[Clarence Yard]

None, because the DfT would never mandate that kind of deal to be put to the unions and the unions would reject it anyway.

 

[Philip]

None, because the DfT would never mandate that kind of deal to be put to the unions and the unions would reject it anyway.

Why on both counts? I think it represents a fair compromise for both sides really.

 

[ar10642]

They already exist - You can go to San Francisco and get them from most parts of the city. Phoenix too. In the coming months LA, Austin and many cities in China

The UK will be later of course but I imagine London will have them by 2025 and they will be widespread throughout the country by the early 2030's

I didn't know it had got that far tbh. Looking at the headlines about them, looks like there are definitely some issues they need to solve before they let them loose in Europe. They would also have to be a *lot* cheaper than traditional taxis to be a viable replacement for PT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they could manage no compulsory redundancies for the foreseeable, to be honest, unless they want to shut the system down entirely. It's already shockingly understaffed, and even if you pruned the single figures of branch lines* that might be seen as Beeching escapees it still would be, as that'd just save you tens of drivers/guards and about 5 to 10 DMUs. All they'd need to ask for is a bit of flexibility of redeployment and nobody need get made compulsorily redundant.

* I think it's very telling that fewer than 10 lines** in England have come up in the entire discussions on this. If there was lots of fat to trim, more would have come up.
** Whitby, S&C/Bentham (but not both), Stockport-Stalybridge, Newquay and Goole, wasn't it? Plus a few stations, but those are mostly unstaffed so will do nothing to staffing at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

I didn't know it had got that far tbh. Looking at the headlines about them, looks like there are definitely some issues they need to solve before they let them loose in Europe. They would also have to be a *lot* cheaper than traditional taxis to be a viable replacement for PT.

They appear to be running at night only, I guess they have trouble coping with busy roads full of pedestrians crossing and cyclists, for instance.

What is a lot easier to automate is rail...

 

[class68fan]

You really, really, really should purchase a car. It will make your life much easier and less stressful, even if you don't (as I don't) use it for every journey. A small petrol runaround is very cheap, and while insurance will be expensive to begin with the cost comes down very quickly.

unbelievable comment. not everybody is able to drive a car and it is not always because they just dont want to

 

[zwk500]

unbelievable comment. not everybody is able to drive a car and it is not always because they just dont want to

The comment is a specific response to a specific poster, who has an entire thread running on whether or not a car is affordable.

 

[class68fan]

Chiltern Railways services are running from Banbury and south of there, albeit limited: https://timetables.chilternrailways.co.uk/#/timetables/1582/W20 ThO ST Combined

The link to the amended timetable is above.
Don't refer to RealTime Trains as it's showing no Chiltern services for that date yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==


By turning up at the station and getting on the train, brother.
S-T

A train that dont run as no service on sunday 18/12/22 on chiltern.

 

[ComUtoR]

DOO to be trialled across all TOCs but only on some services rather than all, with a review in 2026.

How do you trial DOO ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The comment is a specific response to a specific poster, who has an entire thread running on whether or not a car is affordable.

Indeed. Said poster wishes to live a fast, action packed life in the UK involving travelling to rural locations outside London for his sport. The ONLY way to do that is a car.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Why on both counts? I think it represents a fair compromise for both sides really.

Because the DfT officials (who are really behind this dispute) don’t want to compromise on terms and conditions at all and the RMT won’t have anymore DOO, at any price.

 

[MDB1images]

Yes they do.

I thought on the East conductor depot side(old style ex Regional Railways NE drawn contracts) and ex TPE West side conductors its Committed Sundays, unless it's changed of late.

 

[Man_with_beard]

According to bbc the strikes now continue through 27/28 and 29 December

 

[HamworthyGoods]

According to bbc the strikes now continue through 27/28 and 29 December

The industrial action continues to 7th January, some of this is in the form a strike and some is industrial action short of a strike.

 

[Bald Rick]

According to bbc the strikes now continue through 27/28 and 29 December

A couple of TOCs have TSSA strikes on some of those days, and all DfT TOCs have an overtime / Rest Day ban on durign that time (and on to 2 Jan). But there’s no new RMT strike for those days.

 

[Bantamzen]

A couple of TOCs have TSSA strikes on some of those days, and all DfT TOCs have an overtime / Rest Day ban on durign that time (and on to 2 Jan). But there’s no new RMT strike for those days.

Thanks for clearing this up, I was about to rant, erm comment about the prospect of even more Christmas strikes.

 

[43066]

Thanks for clearing this up, I was about to rant, erm comment about the prospect of even more Christmas strikes.

You’re not striking yourself, then?!

 

[12LDA28C]

Why on both counts? I think it represents a fair compromise for both sides really.

Pretty sure the DfT will not back down on Sundays being brought into the working week, which to be fair ASLEF are in favour of but the TOCs aren't.

Also as mentioned the RMT will never agree to extension of existing DOO operation and indeed this was not even a 'string' to the deal until the Government shoehorned it in at the last minute, with the entirely expected result.

 

[Philip]

Pretty sure the DfT will not back down on Sundays being brought into the working week, which to be fair ASLEF are in favour of but the TOCs aren't.

Also as mentioned the RMT will never agree to extension of existing DOO operation and indeed this was not even a 'string' to the deal until the Government shoehorned it in at the last minute, with the entirely expected result.

One way or another there will have to be compromise from either the government or the RMT on the DOO issue, otherwise the strikes will continue indefinitely. Sundays too - in the last offer by the RDG they weren't included in the working week, rather as 'committed overtime'.

 

[43066]

Pretty sure the DfT will not back down on Sundays being brought into the working week, which to be fair ASLEF are in favour of but the TOCs aren't.

I think what the DfT seem to want is committed Sundays, where they’re currently outside. What will happen where Sundays are already inside is unclear (presumably simply left alone).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

otherwise the strikes will continue indefinitely.

This seems the most likely at the moment.

 

[Philip]

This seems the most likely at the moment.

But this in itself doesn't make sense because the strikes and the knock-on effect on the rail industry and economy in general are slowly losing the savings the government hope to make through the rail cuts, not to mention discouraging rail use from the general public. And of course rail workers are losing the extra they'd make through a pay rise because of repeated strike action.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But this in itself doesn't make sense because the strikes and the knock-on effect on the rail industry and economy in general are slowly losing the savings the government hope to make through the rail cuts, not to mention discouraging rail use from the general public. And of course rail workers are losing the extra they'd make through a pay rise because of repeated strike action.

Don’t forget a strike day whilst destroying the revenue also delivers the cost savings by not running trains…

 

[43066]

But this in itself doesn't make sense because the strikes and the knock-on effect on the rail industry and economy in general are slowly losing the savings the government hope to make through the rail cuts, not to mention discouraging rail use from the general public. And of course rail workers are losing the extra they'd make through a pay rise because of repeated strike action.

But it isn’t about a pay rise. The pay figures already proposed would be acceptable to most people (certainly based on the dozens of RMT members I regularly overhear discussing this dispute). For the RMT, especially on the TOC side, it’s about the strings being attached.

Surely you must realise that?!

 

[Philip]

But it isn’t about a pay rise. The pay figures already proposed would be acceptable to most people (certainly based on the dozens of RMT members I regularly overhear discussing this dispute). For the RMT, especially on the TOC side, it’s about the strings being attached.

Surely you must realise that?!

I'm not suggesting the workers are continuing to strike mainly because they're not happy with the pay offer (although no doubt a minority are still after something ridiculous like 12%). However, the point still stands that continuing the strike (rightly or wrongly) is chipping away at the extra earnings which will come about when the pay offer is finally resolved.