In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No the industrial action runs from 13th December 2022 to 8th January 2023.

The action is taken in two forms - strike action on a number of days and action short of a strike (work to rule with no rest day working) on the other days, as I’m sure you are aware the railway currently relies heavily on rest day working.

This is the thing though, most of the general public aren't aware and the lack of communication is largely what I'm condemning.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This is the thing though, most of the general public aren't aware and the lack of communication is largely what I'm condemning.

I wasn’t saying the public was aware of the rest day working, but the majority of active forum members here are.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wasn’t saying the public was aware of the rest day working, but the majority of active forum members here are.

Sure, but I wasn't asking for a reason myself - I know that reason - I've been condemning the lack of communication

 

[brick60000]

I suggest you refrain from calling them 'pathetically lazy', which they most certainly are not

Hear hear.

A point that everybody always seems to miss:

Rewriting the timetable in these circumstances is a necessity to cater for the lack of available resource due to OT bans or strikes (for right or wrong).

The actual lazy option would be to make no changes to the base timetable, and have 100s+ of of on the day cancellations, and leave the customers to fend for themselves. That’s the least amount of prep work for the operator. That would be lazy - and far preferable for planning teams across the country!! Control colleagues might feel differently about being fed to the wolves of course

What is not lazy is to rewrite the TT to cater for reduced resource. However, it’s not necessarily humanly possibly to rewrite everything - so something has to give.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wasn’t saying the public was aware of the rest day working, but the majority of active forum members here are.

I certainly understand why there are different circumstances at each TOC which mean that service levels may appear inconsistent, but what has surprised me with SWR is that even though Sundays are within the working week this coming Sunday has a worse service than on strike days, eg there's no service whatsoever on the Windsor Lines network. I doubt if anyone outside the circles of those planning it saw that one coming.

 

[Ken H]

If there is no ticket acceptance in place and the passenger can’t refund the ticket, then surely the train operator would be breaking the law as the passenger would have purchased something that has no value (in this case providing transport from A to B). For this reason I assume either ticket acceptance would be put in place or passengers would be able to get a refund, regardless of the ticket type.

Then contact your card issuer and do a chargeback. They cost the merchant £15. And are a shedload of hassle. Its the only way to get a retailer to take you seriously sometimes.

 

[brick60000]

Several TOC Planning Terms are on the verge of meltdown.

Agreed!

whoever has told them not to bother planning anything for the in-between days

Except running a reduced service that differs from the base requires planning….

I think the bigger issue here is that there seems to be no route out of these strikes for the foreseeable.

That’s the biggest worry now. NR might have a relatively tenable offer on the table - demonstrated by the RMT at least offering it to members albeit rejected , and TSSA recommending to accept (I think).

The TOCs are a million miles away so long as DOO remains a condition, and if the government are prepared to hold their nerve over the festive period, I have no reason to believe they will cave afterwards. What would be the point? The damage has been done now.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Sure, but I wasn't asking for a reason myself - I know that reason - I've been condemning the lack of communication

Comms isn’t something I can comment on! Not really my sphere

 

[Bald Rick]

Several TOC Planning Terms are on the verge of meltdown. This is becoming increasingly clear and has been expressed as such by some on industry calls.

Trust me there is no laziness ongoing just an inability to process that volume of work required, bearing in mind some planners are RMT members so have been on strike this week over their pay and conditions. This means they are not in work to process next weeks train service.

And expressed by some on these pages for some time (It feels like years now)

Surely operators like Northern need to come up with a basic shoulder strike day timetable. Basic services running hourly, no complicated links so nothing running across Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield, 9am to 9pm, with all stock and crew ending at the same location they start at, so the stock that is in the ‘wrong place’ also ends in the ‘wrong place’, and make it available to run 7 days a week, so it doesn’t matter if the post strike day is a weekday, Saturday or Sunday. Ensure nothing needs more than 75% of stock or crew that is available at any location so they only need to design it once.

Indeed they do. However, given how much extra, unexpected, train planning work has been required for Northern in the past 6 months, they have not had time to prepare a specific new basic shoulder day timetable for the new base timetable that started on Sunday. I’m sure they will get on to it as soon as these strikes, Christmas alterstions, Easter alterations, DfT Business Plan alterations, May 23, and other work that takes priority is done.

I'm sure the planning team work exceptionally hard, and I wasn't necessarily criticising them in particular as much as the hierarchy of the TOC or whoever has told them not to bother planning anything for the in-between days, in a way other TOCs have not done.

They haven’t been told ‘not to bother’ and therefore sitting around doing nothing. The Chiltern planning team have been flat out for months, and it is a case of prioritising. Do they try and develop a bespoke service for the overtime ban week, or do they try to plan diagrams so that a service can run on Friday / Saturday?

I think the point is that "Industrial Action by the RMT" is down for 13, 14, 16 and 17 December and January 3,4, 6 and 7, with additional action affecting the railway on Christmas when it would be closed anyway, not the entirety of December 13 to January 8.

As has been stated before, the industrial action is on a handful of days in the next month.

As has been stated repeatedly, not least by Chiltern Railways on their website, the industrial action is continuous from 13 December to 8 January. Different types of action in that time, but continuous nevertheless.

What I am hearing is that these TOCs don't have adequate planning teams, don't have staff in position, rostering problems, unit diagram problems, can't change the timetable late notice, they are being told by senior management not to make changes, etc. etc.

This is a little unfair. TOC planning teams are adequately sized for a (roughly) stable railway - 2 major timetable changes a year (with relevant changes to diagrams and rosters etc)., and a typical amount of short term alteration for engineering / bad weather etc.

They are not adequately sized for planning multiple different strikes (some cancelled at short notice) by different unions for 6 months on top of that. AIUI at one point it looked like there would need to be 14 different timetables planned for the three weeks across Christmas.

When they are being told not to make changes, or to replicate strike timetables on ‘non strike’ days, it is not because nobody wants to do this, but simply because there is no other option that is deliverable. The people taking the decision to do this will have taken the advice of the planning teams on what is actually possible.

 

[Killingworth]

Nick Donovan of Northern hit a nail on the head this morning at the Transport Select Committee meeting when he pointed out that as far as Sundays are concerned it's largely a volunteer railway, 90% or thereabouts at present. Goodwill is vital to achieve the levels of morale that ensure all trains can run. Currently that has evaporated.

Having been in a much smaller but basically similar situation many years ago I can understand that the vast majority of staff will be doing their best to provide services. However working to rule and banning non contractual overtime and working rest days will be creating pressures of loyalty, employer v. uniion. In the case I recall a small number of key people 'won' a victory for the majority but it was a close run thing. Rules got changed, more part time staff to avoid overtime and eventually we went from a basic 5 to 7 day operation.

Thursday's non strike may make the case for action to resolve the dispute more forcefully than a 5 day stoppage might have.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed they do. However, given how much extra, unexpected, train planning work has been required for Northern in the past 6 months, they have not had time to prepare a specific new basic shoulder day timetable for the new base timetable that started on Sunday. I’m sure they will get on to it as soon as these strikes, Christmas alterstions, Easter alterations, DfT Business Plan alterations, May 23, and other work that takes priority is done.

Do you reckon any of the TOC MDs have the balls to tell the DfT that messing around with any timetable due to DfT needs inside 12mths isn't practical with the planning resources they have available or do they just keep their heads down and do what the paymasters wants.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do you reckon any of the TOC MDs have the balls to tell the DfT that messing around with any timetable due to DfT needs inside 12mths isn't practical with the planning resources they have available or do they just keep their heads down and do what the paymasters wants.

There’s the slightly bigger issue that if they don’t do the changes DfT ask for they will exceed their operating budget.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you reckon any of the TOC MDs have the balls to tell the DfT that messing around with any timetable due to DfT needs inside 12mths isn't practical with the planning resources they have available or do they just keep their heads down and do what the paymasters wants.

that depends on the extent of ‘messing around’ - some can be done quite easily.

However the DfT already know what the risks are for doing major changes at short notice, and I’m sure that someone does have the balls to tell them that again.

 

[infobleep]

You might want to review your comment in a day or so‘s time.

Indeed, the action short of a strike is looking like it could potentially have a massive impact on the South Western.

Technically doesn't the decision to not to work any over time start next week?

If this is the case then the comment about being able to run a fuller timetable applies, as there isn't any strikes next week for there to be days in between.

 

[142blue]

Curious to see what happens from Monday 19th with Northern and other TOCs who are running nothing on these in-between days

 

[TUC]

I don't follow. How can it be unrepresentative if it has a higher population than two of the UK's nations combined? Just how much of the UK has to discounted before we are left with the supposed "representative" bit?

In multiple ways:
1. The density of London's population mean that the distances to travel to work and to key services can be much shorter than elsewhere.
2. The make-up of the population is different in terms of ag, ethnicity, affluence etc., so the views of a cross-section of Londoners on an issue will tend to be different to elsewhere (and also a greater proportion of Londoners who lean towards liberal/left views).
3. The culture of using public transport rather than a car, and therefore the impact of strikes, is much greater in London than elsewhere.

 

[johncrossley]

In multiple ways:
1. The density of London's population mean that the distances to travel to work and to key services can be much shorter than elsewhere.
2. The make-up of the population is different in terms of ag, ethnicity, affluence etc., so the views of a cross-section of Londoners on an issue will tend to be different to elsewhere (and also a greater proportion of Londoners who lean towards liberal/left views).
3. The culture of using public transport rather than a car, and therefore the impact of strikes, is much greater in London than elsewhere.

We've spent the last 20 years until 2020 trying to promote high density urban living dependent on public transport but that has now shown to be flawed. London has been exposed as being too vulnerable to public transport disruption for almost the last three years now, starting with social distancing. It seems that car based suburbia is necessary after all to wean ourselves off relying on public transport.

 

[TUC]

We've spent the last 20 years until 2020 trying to promote high density urban living dependent on public transport but that has now shown to be flawed.

As ever with planning ideas, planners might like it for neatness, but many people prefer more relexed, small town/rural living.

 

[Bald Rick]

Technically doesn't the decision to not to work any over time start next week?

It starts Sunday.

 

[johncrossley]

As ever with planning ideas, planners might like it for neatness, but many people prefer more relexed, small town/rural living.

People did actually vote with their feet and moved to London in droves but those people are now locked into a life of public transport dependence.

 

[scrapy]

Curious to see what happens from Monday 19th with Northern and other TOCs who are running nothing on these in-between days

The RMT overtime ban will probably have limited short term effect. The majority of cancellations at TOCs are because of driver shortages and ASLEF rest day bans. Service levels will be similar to last Monday. Training can be paused to see out a few weeks, although briefs etc can happen on days like today, this will of course have long term effects.

I do know that at Northern the last few weeks have brought forward a number of driver/guard (especially driver) retirements. More than usual have thought 'I've had enough now'. Again this will have knock on effects next year as it takes more than the 6 months notice period to train a driver.

 

[philosopher]

We've spent the last 20 years until 2020 trying to promote high density urban living dependent on public transport but that has now shown to be flawed. London has been exposed as being too vulnerable to public transport disruption for almost the last three years now, starting with social distancing. It seems that car based suburbia is necessary after all to wean ourselves off relying on public transport.

Car based suburbs are awful for those without a car as in some cases you may be more than a mile from essential services. Not everyone can or wants to drive so these people end up struggling to obtain basic services. For example someone with epilepsy usually can’t legally drive. In addition they are very unsustainable. Even if all cars were electric, you would end up using far more energy in transport compared to more compact public transport dependent cities.

As ever with planning ideas, planners might like it for neatness, but many people prefer more relexed, small town/rural living.

If everyone tried to live in small towns or rural areas, they would cease to be small towns and instead would become sprawling suburbs.

 

[Goldfish62]

In multiple ways:
1. The density of London's population mean that the distances to travel to work and to key services can be much shorter than elsewhere.
2. The make-up of the population is different in terms of ag, ethnicity, affluence etc., so the views of a cross-section of Londoners on an issue will tend to be different to elsewhere (and also a greater proportion of Londoners who lean towards liberal/left views).
3. The culture of using public transport rather than a car, and therefore the impact of strikes, is much greater in London than elsewhere.

If you're going to mark any of those three characteristic as "unrepresentative" then you're excluding a huge part of the population. Arguably what's left would in itself be unrepresentative.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

I do know that at Northern the last few weeks have brought forward a number of driver/guard (especially driver) retirements. More than usual have thought 'I've had enough now'. Again this will have knock on effects next year as it takes more than the 6 months notice period to train a driver.

It's a good point. Amongst my circle of railway friends they're finding the current situation deeply unpleasant, see no end to it, and would get out now if they could afford it.

All quite depressing really!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

People did actually vote with their feet and moved to London in droves but those people are now locked into a life of public transport dependence.

Public transport dependence is infinitely preferable to car dependence. I have a car. I don't want a car, but need it for certain journeys. If I were to move to London I'd dispose of my car. I didn't own a car when I lived in London previously.

 

[johncrossley]

Car based suburbs are awful for those without a car as in some cases you may be more than a mile from essential services. Not everyone can or wants to drive so these people end up struggling to obtain basic services. For example someone with epilepsy usually can’t legally drive. In addition they are very unsustainable. Even if all cars were electric, you would end up using far more energy in transport compared to more compact public transport dependent cities.

Contrary to popular belief, public transport is hardly used in the Netherlands outside the main cities but everything is in easy reach because of good town planning and it is easy to get around by both car and bike. No vulnerability to strikes.

 

[zwk500]

Contrary to popular belief, public transport is hardly used in the Netherlands outside the main cities but everything is in easy reach because of good town planning and it is easy to get around by both car and bike. No vulnerability to strikes.

BIB - This is categorically false, I've been directly impacted by rail strikes despite only living in the Netherlands for 6 months.

I've not yet got intercity transport while living here so can't say how busy it is but trains are used for local travel a lot. Regional travel is almost exclusively car, because once you're off the radial routes the frequencies drop and you get long journeys with lots of changes that compete poorly against a very effective motorway network.

 

[johncrossley]

BIB - This is categorically false, I've been directly impacted by rail strikes despite only living in the Netherlands for 6 months.

I've not yet got intercity transport while living here so can't say how busy it is but trains are used for local travel a lot. Regional travel is almost exclusively car, because once you're off the radial routes the frequencies drop and you get long journeys with lots of changes that compete poorly against a very effective motorway network.

If we are talking about Limburg then there are no big cities there and so cars can be used relatively easily without needing trains or buses. Parking exists and congestion isn't like what you get in a big city like London. People might be using local trains because they are useful, but cars could be used for the same journeys if needed because of a strike. Bikes (especially electric bikes) can also be used instead of shorter rail journeys. By contrast, it is not practical to drive into central London, so rail has a captive market.

 

[zwk500]

If we are talking about Limburg then there are no big cities there and so cars can be used relatively easily without needing trains or buses. Parking exists and congestion isn't like what you get in a big city like London. People might be using local trains because they are useful, but cars could be used for the same journeys if needed because of a strike. Bikes (especially electric bikes) can also be used instead of shorter rail journeys. By contrast, it is not practical to drive into central London, so rail has a captive market.

I didn't say the impact would be anything like that of London, but the fact remains that if a strike happens people are disrupted by it. To say there is 'no vulnerability' is not correct. To say that a strike is much less serious here would be accurate.

 

[miklcct]

3. The culture of using public transport rather than a car, and therefore the impact of strikes, is much greater in London than elsewhere.

I feel the complete opposite. In London, there are National Rail, tube and buses. If one is on strike I can usually use the others. I'd just say that a strike is a minor annoyance in London.

In contrast, in the country, the heavy dependence on the railways and the lack of useful bus / coach services as an alternative to the railways mean if the railway is on strike, I'm basically stuck.

 

[DC1989]

I personally doubt if fully self driving taxis will ever exist but if they did that would be replacing PT for a good reason. Endless ineffective industrial action with a government that couldn't care less if the trains run or not doesn't feel like a good reason.

They already exist - You can go to San Francisco and get them from most parts of the city. Phoenix too. In the coming months LA, Austin and many cities in China

The UK will be later of course but I imagine London will have them by 2025 and they will be widespread throughout the country by the early 2030's

 

[Falcon1200]

It's the same up here in Scotland. Same strike timetable planned for the 15th, leaving parts of the Glasgow suburban network and the full Intercity network without services for nearly a week.

I meant name another TOC who are only running a (full) strike day timetable. Not individual lines.

Also not aware of other operators ‘up north’ running a strike service.

As Id0595 has said, Scotrail are running the same strike timetable today, Thursday 15th December, a non RMT/NR strike day, as on the actual strike days. The explanation given on their website states;

This limited strike timetable will also operate on the non-strike day, Thursday, 15 December. This is because Network Rail is unable to make all infrastructure available on that day. Signal boxes are key pieces of Network Rail infrastructure located across the rail network that control train movements. Their use is critical to ensure that the railway can operate safely......

Due to the greater reliance on manual signalling outside the Central Belt, Network Rail is unable to facilitate passenger services on any other routes on the strike days.

Not convinced about the first paragraph, but the second paragraph is complete nonsense, because there are routes controlled entirely from Signalling Centres with no service whatsoever today, for example Glasgow and Ayr, Largs, Wemyss Bay, Gourock. There is no reason why a service could not operate with a later start to take account of Signallers' shift times, and planning it should not have been a major issue given that similar late start-ups have happened after previous strike days. I actually planned yesterday to go into Glasgow today but on checking Realtime Trains for my first service, discovered that there are none, all day! Scotrail have basically given up.

Planning teams do not have the resource to write a bespoke (full) plan for every possible combination of strikes.

Understand the pressure on Planners but as above, late start-ups after a Signallers' strike day have already been planned and have operated.

Sundays are outside the working week for Chiltern. Therefore it is overtime.

Nick Donovan of Northern hit a nail on the head this morning at the Transport Select Committee meeting when he pointed out that as far as Sundays are concerned it's largely a volunteer railway, 90% or thereabouts at present.

Sundays throughout my 38 year railway career were outside the working week, and were sometimes not even rostered. But in more recent times these became fully rostered shifts and I was obliged to work them unless cover could be arranged; Does an overtime ban override that and enable staff not to turn out for rostered work, or does Northern still depend on volunteers for Sundays, a 1980s situation surely?!!