Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Clarence Yard]

Which in turn is down to decisions made on route knowledge and operations which are surely TPE decisions. The cynic in me would say TPE have maximised profit over network resiliance, and being even more cynical TPE thinking is 'We know we will get the boot sooner or later, lets bleed it for everything we can'

It absolutely was TPE’s decision to do this, when it was their “own” operation but that was then. Now it’s the Governments and they are not allowing TPE to reverse out of it in a timely fashion. They aren’t willing to cough up that kind of cash.

The previous MD thought that this diagram and route/traction knowledge structure was the way forward, as did the DfT, who were over keen on train crew optimisation and cutting down on traction and route knowledge costs. To a certain extent they still are.

 

[ic31420]

The WCML service was moved to TPE from XC as part of their need to stabilise their service. It had also at one point I believe been briefly run by Virgin West Coast.

I think that it would fit best with the WCML operator they run Manchester South to London, why not Manchester North to Scotland. For added fun they could run it London - Scotland Via Manchester city and stop faffing with the airport.
Leave it as it is, let the WCML operator run and stuff it (and of course revinyl it) and it's something TPE management don't have to worry about. They can get on with sorting out the core TP routes over the Pennines.

All of this doesnt deal with the issue, the elephant that is Manchester through routes and Piccadilly.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

In which case You could therefore argue that Liverpool-Newcastle/Edinburgh would be better off in the hands of LNER…

 

[mike57]

In which case You could therefore argue that Liverpool-Newcastle/Edinburgh would be better off in the hands of LNER…

Well they couldn't be any worse than TPE.

It has been suggested that one reason for not removing TPE is the fact that the OLR have enough on their plate, so perhaps break up TPE, South routes to EMR, Newcastle/Middlesborough to Manchester and Liverpool to LNER, York Scarborough to Northern (give up on the idea of through services from Scarborough westwards of York, the shhuttle has been far more reliable) and Hull - Manchester to Northern. Machester - Scotland to WCML operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well they couldn't be any worse than TPE.

It has been suggested that one reason for not removing TPE is the fact that the OLR have enough on their plate, so perhaps break up TPE, South routes to EMR, Newcastle/Middlesborough to Manchester and Liverpool to LNER, York Scarborough to Northern (give up on the idea of through services from Scarborough westwards of York, the shhuttle has been far more reliable) and Hull - Manchester to Northern. Machester - Scotland to WCML operator.

I'd not break it up but in the long term I'd look to merge it into Northern. I understand why it wasn't originally and can't really be now though.

 

[Mat17]

I'd not break it up but in the long term I'd look to merge it into Northern. I understand why it wasn't originally and can't really be now though.

Turning back time to the days when it was part of Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains Northern.

 

[Chester1]

I'd not break it up but in the long term I'd look to merge it into Northern. I understand why it wasn't originally and can't really be now though.

The fleet and many of the services are unsuitable for Northern. I would be tempted to transfer the 185s (converted to all standard seats) to Northern and transfer the rest of the fleet to Cross Country. The services could be split between the two. The WCML and ECML services would be a good fit for CrossCountry.

 

[mike57]

ECML services would be a good fit for CrossCountry.

I think the original reason for suggesting LNER for Newcastle - Liverpool is that their fleet is already 80x so the 802s would fit in well

 

[Chester1]

I think the original reason for suggesting LNER for Newcastle - Liverpool is that their fleet is already 80x so the 802s would fit in well

While it makes sense from a rolling stock perspective it doesn't make as much sense from a route perspective. CrossCountry is Birmingham focused with a Manchester service. It could become a Birmingham and Manchester focused ToC, still fitting its original rationale of being the ToC for non London intercity services.

 

[Starmill]

While it makes sense from a rolling stock perspective it doesn't make as much sense from a route perspective. CrossCountry is Birmingham focused with a Manchester service. It could become a Birmingham and Manchester focused ToC, still fitting its original rationale of being the ToC for non London intercity services.

Surely none of this really makes any difference though? Certainly not within the bounds of the 14 operators contracted by the Department anyway.

The primary thing to get right is precisely where the train crew are based, because that's so relevant to overall efficiency. To a lesser extent it is also relevant where trains are based, in case you would make gains by basing some drivers there rather than in or near a station, as happens in a handful of places such as Polmadie and Northam.

 

[Chester1]

Surely none of this really makes any difference though? Certainly not within the bounds of the 14 operators contracted by the Department anyway.

The primary thing to get right is precisely where the train crew are based, because that's so relevant to overall efficiency. To a lesser extent it is also relevant where trains are based, in case you would make gains by basing some drivers there rather than in or near a station, as happens in a handful of places such as Polmadie and Northam.

Depends if current setup continues. If it doesn't then the strategic view matters i.e. what is TPE actually for? I think that is unlikely that the current financial setup will continue after next general election. Either Labour finishes nationalisation or Tories will go back to a more commercial setup. I think Labour are unlikely to be prepared to fully takeover Northern, the current role of TfN is too established.

My preference would be to have a nationalised intercity ToC with local services run by regional transport authorities. The dividing line in the south would be more difficult to establish but I would put all Avanti, Cross Country and LNER services under the Intercity ToC and split TPE between it and Northern.

 

[IslandLine101]

Question for those inside the TPE operation… How likely is it that this new timetable (once strikes are out the way) will completely fall over, or will the large amount of traction/route training in the last few weeks start to noticeably pay off? If they try and run 4 trains across the Pennines then hopefully 2 might actually run, rather than the current attempted 2 and realistic 1.

 

[EZJ]

If a RDW and pay deal is reached speaking as someone who works for said TOC I would expect a fairly decent service to return. Still a lot of training to complete but with RDW that could get underway properly. Sadly it appears the government aren't interested in resolving this dispute any time soon.

 

[Killingworth]

Question for those inside the TPE operation… How likely is it that this new timetable (once strikes are out the way) will completely fall over, or will the large amount of traction/route training in the last few weeks start to noticeably pay off? If they try and run 4 trains across the Pennines then hopefully 2 might actually run, rather than the current attempted 2 and realistic 1.

We may be making some progress. A Nova 3 has run in service on South Pennine, apparently for the first time today. Training run 5B73 was cancelled and replaced in service from Cleethorpes to Piccadilly by 1B73. It arrived in Manchester 20 minutes late; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:N21172/2022-12-08/detailed



Early departures from Sheffield didn't fare well this morning. The 5.08 was cancelled today. The 6.09 was terminated short at Stockport when running 37 minutes late. The 7.07 was cancelled last night. The 8.08 ran all the way with 6 cars and arrived in Manchester only 6 minutes late. Only 1 in 4 made it for the full distance.

Here's today's performance westbound; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrHF/to/gb-nr:MAN/2022-12-08/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP and eastbound; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP

Spot how many (if any) of today's supposedly hourly trains run the full timetable distance from end to end and arrive at their originally planned destination on time.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Huddersfield to York this morning 1.5 hours without a train (I always leave plenty of time for connections) then a 3 car set turns up, you can imagine the crush. Just to add insult now stuck on a LNER service south of Northallerton for 2 hours and likely to probably going to be 2.5 hours late home!

 

[Urobach]

Question for those inside the TPE operation… How likely is it that this new timetable (once strikes are out the way) will completely fall over, or will the large amount of traction/route training in the last few weeks start to noticeably pay off? If they try and run 4 trains across the Pennines then hopefully 2 might actually run, rather than the current attempted 2 and realistic 1.

Looking at the amount of jobs uncovered at my depot next week...

 

[D6130]

Huddersfield to York this morning 1.5 hours without a train (I always leave plenty of time for connections) then a 3 car set turns up, you can imagine the crush. Just to add insult now stuck on a LNER service south of Northallerton for 2 hours and likely to probably going to be 2.5 hours late home!

Fatality at Thirsk, unfortunately.

 

[BHXDMT]

Question for those inside the TPE operation… How likely is it that this new timetable (once strikes are out the way) will completely fall over, or will the large amount of traction/route training in the last few weeks start to noticeably pay off? If they try and run 4 trains across the Pennines then hopefully 2 might actually run, rather than the current attempted 2 and realistic 1.

I suspect the first month or two will be a struggle.

 

[Parjon]

I wonder how many people no longer book tpe tickets when they can go via Northern instead? I know I'm one of them. Just feels like there's no point even trying, and I just don't want to risk it anymore

 

[coxxy]

Question for those inside the TPE operation… How likely is it that this new timetable (once strikes are out the way) will completely fall over, or will the large amount of traction/route training in the last few weeks start to noticeably pay off? If they try and run 4 trains across the Pennines then hopefully 2 might actually run, rather than the current attempted 2 and realistic 1.

Strikes, people finishing work for xmas and extensive Xmas engineering work will mask it for a few weeks I think..

I suspect January, when everyone returns to work again, will be tough.. Dont see how our diagrams are going to work at all...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Operation Princess all over again....

 

[8J]

Well they couldn't be any worse than TPE.

It has been suggested that one reason for not removing TPE is the fact that the OLR have enough on their plate, so perhaps break up TPE, South routes to EMR, Newcastle/Middlesborough to Manchester and Liverpool to LNER, York Scarborough to Northern (give up on the idea of through services from Scarborough westwards of York, the shhuttle has been far more reliable) and Hull - Manchester to Northern. Machester - Scotland to WCML operator.

So perhaps maybe if newccastle crews signed all the way through to Liverpool or manchester airport like we used to do until fairly recently and liverpool crews signed the route all the way through to Newcastle and worked the train through and back rather than handing over to a york crew at York, who then hands over to a manchester crew at Leeds who then handover to a liverpool crew at Man Vicc then maybe both Newcastle and Liverpool would be able to cross cover and filll in the missing gaps and keep the service running….. like we used to!

that calder valley diversion was very useful for keeping the job moving when things went belly up, as was normanton (as proved only last week) but they have all been taken off my card. Just lost all 185 work so potentially losing traction knowledge too. Another managerial decision Merely exacerbating the very problem we keep highlighting and this is down to the decisions of the company’s current, not historical management!

Liverpool drivers are losing all work between Leeds & York from the December TT change. The madness continues and somebody in the planning department will probably be out of a job very soon when it falls on its backside.

 

[Killingworth]

Well they couldn't be any worse than TPE.

It has been suggested that one reason for not removing TPE is the fact that the OLR have enough on their plate, so perhaps break up TPE, South routes to EMR, Newcastle/Middlesbrough to Manchester and Liverpool to LNER, York Scarborough to Northern (give up on the idea of through services from Scarborough westwards of York, the shuttle has been far more reliable) and Hull - Manchester to Northern. Manchester - Scotland to WCML operator.

A lot of logical sense in that - until rolling stock and staffing issues come into play with yet more reorganisational chaos.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Liverpool drivers are losing all work between Leeds & York from the December TT change. The madness continues and somebody in the planning department will probably be out of a job very soon when it falls on its backside.

So the past issues with route/traction knowledge are not just Leo Goodwin's fault then, as some have suggested?

 

[D6130]

My wife is travelling from Hebden Bridge to Northallerton and back today to have lunch with a former colleague who lives nearby. The plan was to catch 1B20, the Northern Blackpool-York service from HBD at 09 42, arriving at York 11 00 (which is running to time so far); then 1P19, the 08 54 Liverpool-Newcastle TPE service departing York at 11 07 and arriving Northallerton 11 24. Although not shown as cancelled on Realtime Trains, 1P19 has not departed Lime Street and no unit allocation is shown - so it obviously has been cancelled. Her next fall-back will be 1P69, the Redcar service departing York at 11 39 and arriving Northallerton 11 53. That is shown as running - although cancelled between the Airport and Oxford Road - and has a unit allocated....but it's only a three car 185, so it could be rather cosy! For her return journey, she'll just have to take pot luck. Let's hope there isn't a repeat of yesterday's tragic fatality at Thirsk, which blocked all four lines of the ECML for several hours.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wonder how many people no longer book tpe tickets when they can go via Northern instead? I know I'm one of them. Just feels like there's no point even trying, and I just don't want to risk it anymore

I'm one. In fact I'm making my regular trip from home in Baildon to Warrington right now. In the past I used to go via Leeds then onto a TPE, even when they stopped serving Warrington. But so bad that they are I can't trust being stuck for ages so Northern via Bradford is now my preferred route.

 

[CAF397]

So the past issues with route/traction knowledge are not just Leo Goodwin's fault then, as some have suggested?

That decision would've been made at the recommendation of certain managers/directors who are still at the company. LG may have been the fall guy.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Am I right in saying they were brought in by Steve Montgomery (from another TOC that was previously FirstGroup) when the new franchise started?

 

[D6130]

My wife is travelling from Hebden Bridge to Northallerton and back today to have lunch with a former colleague who lives nearby. The plan was to catch 1B20, the Northern Blackpool-York service from HBD at 09 42, arriving at York 11 00 (which is running to time so far); then 1P19, the 08 54 Liverpool-Newcastle TPE service departing York at 11 07 and arriving Northallerton 11 24. Although not shown as cancelled on Realtime Trains, 1P19 has not departed Lime Street and no unit allocation is shown - so it obviously has been cancelled. Her next fall-back will be 1P69, the Redcar service departing York at 11 39 and arriving Northallerton 11 53. That is shown as running - although cancelled between the Airport and Oxford Road - and has a unit allocated....but it's only a three car 185, so it could be rather cosy! For her return journey, she'll just have to take pot luck. Let's hope there isn't a repeat of yesterday's tragic fatality at Thirsk, which blocked all four lines of the ECML for several hours.

Quick update: 1P19 now shown on RTT as cancelled 'due to late arrival of incoming service'. Not, strictly-speaking, true as 9M03, the 08 02 arrival from Newcastle - which forms 1P19 - was also cancelled.

 

[mike57]

A friend is returning from Chester to the East Riding this morning, they rang my wife and were not having a good journey... They have ended up coming via the Calder valley on Northern as TPE Manchester - Leeds - York seems to be in meltdown again.