RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[LowLevel]

The law should require that the Government go on record with an honest account of all machinations when attacking their own citizens.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Rmt have just tweeted, I’ve attached the screenshot

"a resolution to the dispute is now further away"
Was that wording really necessary? That won't do them a huge number of favours, surely...

 

[pt_mad]

The first paragraph of that tweet, if true, beggars belief. How will the media report this? They have spent weeks saying how the RMT should get back around the table?

 

[Falcon1200]

Not all passenger services?

The RMT document you have linked says;

The RDG is offering 4% in 2022 and 2023 which is conditional on RMT members accepting vast changes to working practices, huge job losses, Driver Only Operated (DOO) trains on all companies and the closure of all ticket offices.

But does indeed later go on to say all passenger services too!

Personally I have no concerns about DOO trains, having travelled on them since 1986. And in Scotland we have the ludicrous situation of trains on one Edinburgh/Glasgow route operating DOO whereas the others must have a Guard; If DOO can operate on one service, why not others which are similar? But I have to agree, if the TOCs/DfT really are demanding agreement to DOO on all passenger services (not saying the RMT are wrong, but have we actually seen the TOCs own version of their proposals?), this is indeed a step way too far, and I do not blame the RMT for refusing to countenance it.

 

[JonathanH]

Looks like ASLEF have returned a strong mandate again. GTR also involved now

GTR being outside the ASLEF strike has somewhat damaged its effectiveness around London as it covers such a large operation. This however still leaves SWR outside the ASLEF dispute. Is there a SWR ballot due at some point?

 

[RPI]

GTR being outside the ASLEF strike has somewhat damaged its effectiveness around London as it covers such a large operation. This however still leaves SWR outside the ASLEF dispute. Is there a SWR ballot due at some point?

I belive SWR are outside because they had a multi year deal in 2019? I may be wrong?

 

[dk1]

I belive SWR are outside because they had a multi year deal in 2019? I may be wrong?

That sounds about right & why EMR aren’t involved either.

 

[JonathanH]

EMR aren’t involved either.

EMR are in the ASLEF action. To date it has been SWR, GTR and c2c outside from the 'DfT' TOCs, plus the 'non DfT' TOCs.

 

[Mat17]

The law should require that the Government go on record with an honest account of all machinations when attacking their own citizens.

I'm sure there could be plenty of efficiency savings if the whole Government and Westminster Parliamentary system was held to the same set of standards that the rest of the public sector was held to. Does the government offer value for money? Does the government make a profit? Does the government cover it's losses (not using tax payers' money).

 

[RPI]

I'm surprised there hasn't been mention of how top heavy the railway is for management, efficiencies could be made there before doing away with those on the lowest salaries.

 

[yorksrob]

The law should require that the Government go on record with an honest account of all machinations when attacking their own citizens.

There should definitely be some independant summary of proceedings published after these negotiations.

 

[HSTEd]

The first paragraph of that tweet, if true, beggars belief. How will the media report this? They have spent weeks saying how the RMT should get back around the table?

The government has likely put a red line on not having DOO, whilst the Union has a red line on having DOO.

Further negotiations serve no purpose in that environment.

 

[Thirteen]

EMR are in the ASLEF action. To date it has been SWR, GTR and c2c outside from the 'DfT' TOCs, plus the 'non DfT' TOCs.

I think ARL were the only non DfT TOC that were in dispute as MTR Elizabeth Line, Merseyrail, Scotrail and TfWR concluded deals this year.

 

[Bald Rick]

When will the impact on 27th Dec become clear? I'm due to travel on LNER mid-morning, i know the action is due to finish at 6am but if it is likely to impact the morning schedule then I can plan around it as long as I know in advance.

Next Thursday. There is an awful lot of planning to do on that yet.

Each member decides for themselves which way they vote. Just like in a general election, or indeed any other election or vote in a free and democratic country. With all due respect, you sometimes sound like you are bitter about the vast majority of RMT members being able to vote freely.

Firstly, I am absolutely not bitter about RMT members (or any union members) being able to vote freely. It is the very principle of democracy. In fact I am not bitter about anything with respect to this dispute, or indeed about anything in life.

I am, however, deeply frustrated with the RMT Leadership.

I’ll let you into an open secret. The RMTs lead negotiator said, on Sunday night in the negotiations, that the revised offer was the best that could be achieved through negotiation. He then said he would go to the RMTs National Executive Committee (NEC) the next day, recommend the NR strikes were cancelled, and put the deal to the members in a referendum with a free vote and no recommendation either way.

The next day the strikes were not cancelled, more strike dates were announced, and the deal is being put to the members with a recommendation to reject.* The General Secretary subsequently advised he was overruled by the NEC. So, either:

1) the General Secretary is not in control of the RMT, and is subservient to the political will of the NEC, or
2) he is in control, but not telling the truth.

Neither looks good.

*back to the vote. It is of course a free vote. How would you have voted if they had recommended acceptance of the deal? TSSA have done this - it will be interesting to see how the outcomes of the free votes differ between two groups of completely independent people who have different recommendations put in front of them.

 

[Thirteen]

Next Thursday. There is an awful lot of planning to do on that yet.




Firstly, I am absolutely not bitter about RMT members (or any union members) being able to vote freely. It is the very principle of democracy. In fact I am not bitter about anything with respect to this dispute, or indeed about anything in life.

I am, however, deeply frustrated with the RMT Leadership.

I’ll let you into an open secret. The RMTs lead negotiator said, on Sunday night in the negotiations, that the revised offer was the best that could be achieved through negotiation. He then said he would go to the RMTs National Executive Committee (NEC) the next day, recommend the NR strikes were cancelled, and put the deal to the members in a referendum with a free vote and no recommendation either way.

The next day the strikes were not cancelled, more strike dates were announced, and the deal is being put to the members with a recommendation to reject.* The General Secretary subsequently advised he was overruled by the NEC. So, either:

1) the General Secretary is not in control of the RMT, and is subservient to the political will of the NEC, or
2) he is in control, but not telling the truth.

Neither looks good.

*back to the vote. It is of course a free vote. How would you have voted if they had recommended acceptance of the deal? TSSA have done this - it will be interesting to see how the outcomes of the free votes differ between two groups of completely independent people who have different recommendations put in front of them.

I have noticed that the new attacks are focused on the TOCs rather than Network Rail so I wonder if TSSA do end up accepting if it'll put pressure for the RMT to accept the NR deal down the line.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm surprised there hasn't been mention of how top heavy the railway is for management, efficiencies could be made there before doing away with those on the lowest salaries.

I mentioned in yesterday

Next Thursday. There is an awful lot of planning to do on that yet.




Firstly, I am absolutely not bitter about RMT members (or any union members) being able to vote freely. It is the very principle of democracy. In fact I am not bitter about anything with respect to this dispute, or indeed about anything in life.

I am, however, deeply frustrated with the RMT Leadership.

I’ll let you into an open secret. The RMTs lead negotiator said, on Sunday night in the negotiations, that the revised offer was the best that could be achieved through negotiation. He then said he would go to the RMTs National Executive Committee (NEC) the next day, recommend the NR strikes were cancelled, and put the deal to the members in a referendum with a free vote and no recommendation either way.

The next day the strikes were not cancelled, more strike dates were announced, and the deal is being put to the members with a recommendation to reject.* The General Secretary subsequently advised he was overruled by the NEC. So, either:

1) the General Secretary is not in control of the RMT, and is subservient to the political will of the NEC, or
2) he is in control, but not telling the truth.

Neither looks good.

*back to the vote. It is of course a free vote. How would you have voted if they had recommended acceptance of the deal? TSSA have done this - it will be interesting to see how the outcomes of the free votes differ between two groups of completely independent people who have different recommendations put in front of them.

Don't the NEC have final say though?

 

[Annetts key]

I’ll let you into an open secret. The RMTs lead negotiator said, on Sunday night in the negotiations, that the revised offer was the best that could be achieved through negotiation. He then said he would go to the RMTs National Executive Committee (NEC) the next day, recommend the NR strikes were cancelled, and put the deal to the members in a referendum with a free vote and no recommendation either way.

The next day the strikes were not cancelled, more strike dates were announced, and the deal is being put to the members with a recommendation to reject.* The General Secretary subsequently advised he was overruled by the NEC. So, either:

1) the General Secretary is not in control of the RMT, and is subservient to the political will of the NEC, or
2) he is in control, but not telling the truth.

The lead negotiator advises and informs the NEC. It is the NEC that takes the decision. The NEC then instructs the General Secretary on their decision. The General Secretary then carries out the instructions.

Knowing both the RMT lead negotiator for the Network Rail negotiations and the General Secretary, I suspect something got lost in the context of what was being said. Both the RMT lead negotiator and the General Secretary know full well the feelings of the RMT Network Rail National Representatives.

I was not party to any of the conversations. But maybe what is being referred to, is that unless the government/company have a change of mind, that’s the best offer that is currently available. That does not mean that it’s an acceptable offer.

Edited to add: what the TSSA find acceptable does not normally affect the decisions of the RMT. However, the TSSA may be influenced by what the RMT agrees.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm surprised there hasn't been mention of how top heavy the railway is for management, efficiencies could be made there before doing away with those on the lowest salaries.

I mentioned it yesterday in https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...network-rail-to-dec-24-27.240414/post-5965468 that ORR had reported the following about NR management

Network Rail’s average headcount remained unchanged from 2020-21 but has increased by 9% since the start of CP6. The average number of staff in senior management grades increased by 12% in the year to around 660, a 22% increase since the start of CP6

 

[DoubleO]

80x do not normally use balises for SDO configurations, they use GPS and the headcode. In some locations the driver needs to confirm either the station, or the platform, or both, depending on GPS accuracy and also software errors. So while a driver shouldn't normally have to interact with the TMS before releasing the doors, it is quite common to have to do so. Balises are being fitted in some locations to provide additional location data to the unit which can also prevent a wrong side release.

 

[RPI]

I mentioned it yesterday in https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...network-rail-to-dec-24-27.240414/post-5965468 that ORR had reported the following about NR management

Apologies, I'd missed that!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm surprised there hasn't been mention of how top heavy the railway is for management, efficiencies could be made there before doing away with those on the lowest salaries.

I mentioned it yesterday in https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...network-rail-to-dec-24-27.240414/post-5965468 that ORR had reported the following about NR management

Indeed.

Which is why over 20% of NR management away from direct ‘operational‘ roles have been made redundant in the past year (mostly volunteers, some compulsory).

 

[RPI]

80x do not normally use balises for SDO configurations, they use GPS and the headcode. In some locations the driver needs to confirm either the station, or the platform, or both, depending on GPS accuracy and also software errors. So while a driver shouldn't normally have to interact with the TMS before releasing the doors, it is quite common to have to do so. Balises are being fitted in some locations to provide additional location data to the unit which can also prevent a wrong side release.

I always noticed that Westbury always takes a while for the doors to be released, I asked a driver colleague about it and he explained similar, though I couldn't explain it in my own words lol

 

[Bald Rick]

The lead negotiator advises and informs the NEC. It is the NEC that takes the decision. The NEC then instructs the General Secretary on their decision. The General Secretary then carries out the instructions.

OK. So who actually represents the members affected by this dispute?

1) The representatives elected by the relevant members who conduct the negotiations on those members’ behalf, or
2) The NEC, which includes many people not directly affected or even connected to the dispute?

Forgive me if I’m confused, because I thought the point of democratic representation in these circumstances was that those you vote for to conduct negotiations on your behalf are those that have a say on the outcome.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is weapons grade b*****cks in every way.

That is a fantastic phrase. May I use it please?

 

[Bald Rick]

That is a fantastic phrase. May I use it please?

be my guest!

 

[pt_mad]

The government has likely put a red line on not having DOO, whilst the Union has a red line on having DOO.

Further negotiations serve no purpose in that environment.

So can we take from that, we won't hear the phrase that the RMT need to get back around the negotiating table again then?

Where has negotiation actually taken place with regards the RDG offer? Mark Harper himself said he is not part of negotiations but will facilitate them.
It looks as though the RMT kept attending the meetings since the Spring, and 7 months later an opening proposal is offered which is the full wish list of everything the RMT warned about near the start of the year. Then the next message is there's no further offer coming. What kind of negotiation is that? And if that's the state of play, who can go on the TV and demand the RMT get back around the table again?

 

[dk1]

EMR are in the ASLEF action. To date it has been SWR, GTR and c2c outside from the 'DfT' TOCs, plus the 'non DfT' TOCs.

Didn’t see their results on todays ASLEF email. Thought they had a multi-year deal. Apologies if I’m wrong.

 

[Annetts key]

OK. So who actually represents the members affected by this dispute?

1) The representatives elected by the relevant members who conduct the negotiations on those members’ behalf, or
2) The NEC, which includes many people not directly affected or even connected to the dispute?

Forgive me if I’m confused, because I thought the point of democratic representation in these circumstances was that those you vote for to conduct negotiations on your behalf are those that have a say on the outcome.

The NEC is the unions governing body. Each member of the NEC (for the railways) is elected by members in each region (union regions not railway regions). However, they may come from any area of railway employment. Hence some may be from Network Rail, some from the TOCs, etc.

The RMT lead negotiator is generally speaking a Assistant General Secretary. They are also elected by union members.

The National Representatives are second level representatives. But only by the grades that they represent. However, they keep in contact with the other second level representatives, and also with the local representatives.

The National Representatives and the RMT lead negotiator do all the detailed discussions. The NEC set and decide on union policy and take the final decision.

Yes, it’s confusing to people outside the RMT.

 

[baz962]

I belive SWR are outside because they had a multi year deal in 2019? I may be wrong?

Swr got around 8% earlier this year. Some depots on 70k plus London weighting

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

That sounds about right & why EMR aren’t involved either

Didn’t see their results on todays ASLEF email. Thought they had a multi-year deal. Apologies if I’m wrong.

EMR strike mandate is quite new as were balloted more recently than the other TOCs .

 

[RAPC]

"a resolution to the dispute is now further away"
Was that wording really necessary? That won't do them a huge number of favours, surely...

It's a statement of fact and hardly going to be picked up or commented on by anyone without a keen interest in the dispute already.