RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[The Planner]

The major blockades and renewals planned for 24-27 December were planned and agreed up to 18 months ago. If deferred the jobs will have to be put-back to Christmas 2023, or more probably be rescheduled for some time in the spring when significant disruption will be caused.

Or just not done at all if it cannot be rescheduled as you will lose the funding, or shunted into CP7 whereupon something else won't get done.

 

[geoffk]

Off topic, but I think the 6% related to GDP not inflation, which is mostly down to global supply issues and Ukraine, magnified here by the UK's crazy economics.
The 6% was also over time, not just one year.
While Brexit has had an negative economic effect, and will continue to do so for years, it isn't the major factor in today's UK inflation.

Yes it's going off-topic - but I can't agree with your conclusion. The OBR assesses the loss of growth caused by Brexit to be £100bn, with a loss of £40bn tax revenue. That's without the loss of key workers as so many have left Britain.

 

[MontyP]

When will the impact on 27th Dec become clear? I'm due to travel on LNER mid-morning, i know the action is due to finish at 6am but if it is likely to impact the morning schedule then I can plan around it as long as I know in advance.

 

[Towers]

I was answering the person who commented about 80X stock.

No they do not need to interact with the TMS when they arrive at a station, as the train passes over balises so the train knows what platform and what station it is at, after checking cctv drivers literally press the door release button.

They only interact with the TMS to release doors in out of course situations.

Which TOC's fleet are you thinking of?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

When will the impact on 27th Dec become clear? I'm due to travel on LNER mid-morning, i know the action is due to finish at 6am but if it is likely to impact the morning schedule then I can plan around it as long as I know in advance.

It will most certainly affect the morning, and indeed likely much of the day I would imagine. I'm interested to see if any pre-planned engineering works might be shifted to begin on the 27th, once there is a sufficient 'clear' gap safe from the 14 day strike notice period?

 

[800001]

Which TOC's fleet are you thinking of?

Well, you must think different, you tell me which TOCs where the driver has to utilise the TMS at stations to release doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2022 ==

When will the impact on 27th Dec become clear? I'm due to travel on LNER mid-morning, i know the action is due to finish at 6am but if it is likely to impact the morning schedule then I can plan around it as long as I know in advance.

If it’s like previous strike days, first services normally start about 0730-0800.

 

[pt_mad]

The RMT statement quoted earlier said 'DOO on all operators', not all trains! And has the DfT/Government actually said they intend to have DOO operation everywhere?

From: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reject-rail-delivery-group-offer/

5. Driver-Only Operation of trains in all companies and on all passenger services;

Not all passenger services?

 

[Annetts key]

In Network Rail, it is purely about changing the working arrangements for maintenance staff, and AIUI the dispute is now only about one part of that change. And that change is happening. And, incidentally, it simply brings maintenance staff onto the same arrangements as signallers.

Maintenance staff were restructured (including changes to terms and conditions) around the year 1999 after privatisation when they were employed by the private infrastructure companies. Then, after Network Rail took maintenance back in house, there were further changes to terms and conditions under the “2b/c” Network Rail Reorganisation agreement in 2010. Incidentally, a large number of experienced staff left as part of this reorganisation.

Since then, although Network Rail won’t admit it, some areas were cut too much. Hence over the last five years or so, the company has been consulting in brand new posts…

Already existing maintenance and CAPEX/Works Delivery staff (employed before the 2b/c agreement) can be rostered up to 28 weeks of midweek nights (Mondays to Thursdays) and up to 32 weekends (on or after 18:00 Fridays to Sundays) comprising of up to a maximum of 52 shifts.

And anyone who has had promotion or joined Network Rail since 31st March 2014 can be rostered up to 39 weeks of midweek nights (Mondays to Thursdays) and up to 39 weekends (on or after 18:00 Fridays to Sundays) comprising of up to a maximum of 65 shifts.

Some of what Network Rail want is changes to existing terms and conditions. However they describe these as working practices. Changing the definition of what a week of nights is, is not working practices. Bringing in a new term that allows a manager to change the start or finish time of any shift by up to two hours, with only a minimum of 48 hours notice is not working practices.

Yes, they also want various changes to working practices as well. They want maximum flexibility at no increased cost to the railway. In other words, they want their cake, with sprinkles on to top and to eat it. Their original list reads like a managers wish list.

Who in their right mind wants to sign up to even more nights, plus all the other changes that Network Rail want, all with no significant pay rise? Why do you think hundreds of staff are leaving the industry? Why do you think so many want to leave under the VSS scheme?

I’ll let you into a (very poorly kept) secret. It’s because an ever increasing number of the workforce now hate working for Network Rail.

In some depots there is now not enough staff to run the shift pattern. So the company are offering overtime like it’s going out of fashion and, or hiring in labour only contractors.

Apprentices often don’t stay in shift jobs very long now. They just use them as stepping stones.

If you want a well maintained and reliable railway, you need fully trained and experienced employees who know what they are doing.

nor is it about pay, if you believe the reps. (and many comments on this thread).

Of course some of this is about pay. Most railway employees have not had a pay rise for three years. Meanwhile the cost of living is increasing every week.

When you explain this to people outside maintenance, they are quite clear that they don’t understand why the RMT is in dispute. Many in maintenance don’t either. However the union tells them to vote a certain way, so they do.

Each member decides for themselves which way they vote. Just like in a general election, or indeed any other election or vote in a free and democratic country. With all due respect, you sometimes sound like you are bitter about the vast majority of RMT members being able to vote freely.

Sadly the railways have not gradually modernised their terms & conditions over the last 50 years.
For example then Sunday was a 'rest day', fewer people worked or travelled on it. Now it must be in the top 3 for passenger numbers.
Passengers deserve the same level of Sunday service from 10am as a weekday.

British Railways restructured the signal and telecommunications engineering department in 1992. As part of this, it was possible for staff to be rostered on Sundays as part of the normal working week. Since then, many, many other parts of the railways have changed terms and conditions through negotiations with the relevant unions. So maybe you should ask someone who knows rather than peddling fiction.

Sundays are unlikely to ever have the same level of service as a week day. Firstly due to engineering works. But also because there is a fraction of the level of commuting.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but giving everyone an inflationary payrise will only fuel further inflation.

A high rate of inflation is the economy's way of signalling that people need to cut back. It's a hard pill to swallow but that's the reality.


No one person, or group of people, in the UK caused the current high levels of inflation - it is a global issue.

But just because you haven't caused it and it's unfair, doesn't mean that you can be insulated from it.

There are many people who deserve an inflationary payrise, arguably everyone. But that doesn't mean that you can simply give everyone an inflationary payrise.

So if pay rises are always inflationary, why have the government not passed a law preventing anyone from getting a pay rise?

Inflation can be caused by many things, and indeed is an inevitable consequence of our economic system. In the vast majority of cases, employees wage rises play catch-up to already existing inflationary causes. Increasing interest rates is not the only tool that countries can use to try to control inflation. But monetary policy is a topic for another thread.

 

[Mat17]

So if pay rises are always inflationary, why have the government not passed a law preventing anyone from getting a pay rise?

Inflation can be caused by many things, and indeed is an inevitable consequence of our economic system. In the vast majority of cases, employees wage rises play catch-up to already existing inflationary causes. Increasing interest rates is not the only tool that countries can use to try to control inflation. But monetary policy is a topic for another thread.

Such as increasing the currency supply to stimulate growth, which then triggers increased velocity of currency, which stokes inflation.

Wars, pandemics and other issues then compound this.

If you want to see the route of this inflation, you have to go back to 2008 and the QE that followed.

 

[MDB1images]

I’d have thought driver release guard close would be a better compromise on IC services which don’t stop often enough for dispatching to really interrupt customer service/tickets.

It should be the way it's done.
It's the best for Customer service and the best for Safety.
Customer service wise you don't have to rush to be at the doors(although we are expected to be nearby in case the driver gives a wrong side door release and doesn't react to the error).
Better for safety as a person stood on the platform has a far better view of the PTI and general station activities than looking at a mirror or any on board cameras sat in an enclosed cab as you can actually view the general area so hear or see that drunk stumbling towards the train or the children legging it to catch it, again customer service wise it's far better as passengers can visually see someone they can ask a question of before boarding(something that happens all the time, at every station, at any time of the day nowadays!)

It's works really well, especially on long distance trains as the demographic and needs of the people travelling is far different than the metro/tube lines the London centric DFT seem to base its DOO ideology on.

The other huge benefit(often not mentioned-the elephant in the room you could say)is having someone who can competently take over when a Driver becomes incapacitated in a emergency situation, something that is critical on long distance services that pass through small populated areas.

 

[pt_mad]

To those who suggest that wages should not rise with inflation because it might lead to a wage inflation spiral, the RPI figure has been used as a benchmark for pay negotiations for years.
That was deemed acceptable during many of the privatised years pre-covid and when inflation was running below 2 percent etc.
The minimum wage had targets to go up above inflation particularly during the Cameron years.

Why did this all not lead to a permanent wage inflation spiral going up and up every year leading up to before Covid? Because wages chase inflation not the other way around.
Any other conclusion would mean workers in society must get poorer and poorer year on year in real terms until either something drastic changes or we reach the minimum wage and then just track that.

 

[brad465]

Such as increasing the currency supply to stimulate growth, which then triggers increased velocity of currency, which stokes inflation.

Wars, pandemics and other issues then compound this.

If you want to see the route of this inflation, you have to go back to 2008 and the QE that followed.

Exactly this, there's clearly a correlation between strike action levels and inflation, and monetary policy is an area that can be controlled domestically; if this was managed much better, we wouldn't be having so many sectors going on strike at once.

 

[Halwynd]

For many a year we have always invited my 78 year old Uncle Arthur up from Cambridge to spend Christmas with us - he really looks forward to it after a year largely on his own. He arrives by train on Christmas Eve and returns on the 27th, but, purely because of those who he describes as 'greedy overpaid ar**wipe railway workers' (he's a bit Alf Garnett, but means no offence), has just told me that he can't come this year.

I have to admit, he eats me out of house and home, sits on his arse watching crap TV all day and expects the heating to be cranked up fully all day long whilst doing so. He has Christmas dinner served, helps himself to all the roast potatoes and Brussels sprouts and then, just as Mrs Queen comes on the telebox, starts to belch and fart for the remainder of the afternoon. The following morning he wakes everyone up at 4am and sets the kitchen smoke alarm off because, even with almost 80 years of life experience and a top class Cambridge university education, still can't manage to toast two slices of bread. He spends the rest of Boxing Day hogging my computer, ordering cheap tat in the 'sales' and stuffing his face with all the Boxing Day sandwiches, dropping all the crumbs onto the keyboard in the process. Despite all of this, I always look forward to seeing him off from the station on the 27th with a smile and a wave.

All is not lost though - he's invited himself to sister Beryl's who lives just five minutes from him. Normally a lovely mild-mannered and respectful lady, she too now thinks that all railway workers are 'greedy overpaid ar**wipes'.

So, from me and the good lady wife, we'd like to send a huge thank you to all members of the RMT, ASLEF and the TSSA and wish you a very Happy Christmas - I know that as a result of your actions ours too will now be great one. Power to the revolutionary Tooting Popular Front!!

PS. We are not pensioners or benefit claimants.

 

[43066]

Well, you must think different, you tell me which TOCs where the driver has to utilise the TMS at stations to release doors.

To be fair this can happen on some stock in some situations, eg SE 375s, the driver will have to confirm the train’s location at certain locations.

For many a year we have always invited my 78 year old Uncle Arthur up from Cambridge to spend Christmas with us - he really looks forward to it after a year largely on his own. He arrives by train on Christmas Eve and returns on the 27th, but, purely because of those who he describes as 'greedy overpaid ar**wipe railway workers' (he's a bit Alf Garnett, but means no offence), has just old me that he can't come this year.

I have to admit, he eats me out of house and home, sits on his arse watching crap TV all day and expects the heating to be cranked up fully all day long whilst doing so. He has Christmas dinner served, helps himself to all the roast potatoes and Brussels sprouts and then, just as Mrs Queen comes on the telebox, starts to belch and fart for the remainder of the afternoon. The following morning he wakes everyone up at 4am and sets the kitchen smoke alarm off because, even with almost 80 years of life experience and a top class Cambridge university education, still can't manage to toast two slices of bread. He spends the rest of Boxing Day hogging my computer, ordering cheap tat in the 'sales' and stuffing his face with all the Boxing Day sandwiches, dropping all the crubs onto the keyboard in the process. Despite all of this, I always look forward to seeing him off from the station on the 27th with a smile and a wave.

All is not lost though - he's invited himself to sister Beryl's who lives just five minutes from him. Normally a lovely mild-mannered and respectful lady, she too now thinks that all railway workers are 'greedy overpaid ar**wipes'.

So, from me and the good lady wife, we'd like to send a huge thank you to all members of the RMT, ASLEF and the TSSA and wish you a very Happy Christmas - I know that as a result of your actions ours too will now be great one. Power to the revolutionary Tooting Popular Front!!

PS. We are not pensioners or benefit claimants.

Brilliant !!!

 

[Halwynd]

Just an attempt at a little 'neutral' humour during these difficult times.

Lets hope all of this is sorted out sooner rather than later.

 

[pt_mad]

Exactly this, there's clearly a correlation between strike action levels and inflation, and monetary policy is an area that can be controlled domestically; if this was managed much better, we wouldn't be having so many sectors going on strike at once.

From what I remember in the early autumn, the government themselves suggested the Bank of England didn't act early enough with interest rates to curb rising inflation. Once it gets this high, it is inevitable people will feel it and need and expect help.

What doesn't make sense though is why such a situation would be used to suggest serious reductions in the levels of terms and conditions, and even expect people to agree with it.

 

[robert thomas]

What abject nonsense… “inflationary” pay rises are not on on… Other than for pensioners, benefits claimants, average wage growth in the private sector, and the city bonus cap being raised I suppose?

Utterly laughable.

My state pension is 8738 p.a. To put matters into perpective this may go up by 900 - hardly generous for a country which already pays pensioners much less than most countries in Europe.

 

[CFRAIL]

For many a year we have always invited my 78 year old Uncle Arthur up from Cambridge to spend Christmas with us - he really looks forward to it after a year largely on his own. He arrives by train on Christmas Eve and returns on the 27th, but, purely because of those who he describes as 'greedy overpaid ar**wipe railway workers' (he's a bit Alf Garnett, but means no offence), has just old me that he can't come this year.

I have to admit, he eats me out of house and home, sits on his arse watching crap TV all day and expects the heating to be cranked up fully all day long whilst doing so. He has Christmas dinner served, helps himself to all the roast potatoes and Brussels sprouts and then, just as Mrs Queen comes on the telebox, starts to belch and fart for the remainder of the afternoon. The following morning he wakes everyone up at 4am and sets the kitchen smoke alarm off because, even with almost 80 years of life experience and a top class Cambridge university education, still can't manage to toast two slices of bread. He spends the rest of Boxing Day hogging my computer, ordering cheap tat in the 'sales' and stuffing his face with all the Boxing Day sandwiches, dropping all the crubs onto the keyboard in the process. Despite all of this, I always look forward to seeing him off from the station on the 27th with a smile and a wave.

All is not lost though - he's invited himself to sister Beryl's who lives just five minutes from him. Normally a lovely mild-mannered and respectful lady, she too now thinks that all railway workers are 'greedy overpaid ar**wipes'.

So, from me and the good lady wife, we'd like to send a huge thank you to all members of the RMT, ASLEF and the TSSA and wish you a very Happy Christmas - I know that as a result of your actions ours too will now be great one. Power to the revolutionary Tooting Popular Front!!

PS. We are not pensioners or benefit claimants.

Merry Christmas

 

[12LDA28C]

What is the current percentage of current applicants who fall into that stated capacity?

Can't speak for other grades but one TOC recently advertised 6 drivers vacancies and received 1,200 applications. For those considered suitable enough to be selected for psychometric testing, the pass rate is around 25%.

 

[800001]

To be fair this can happen on some stock in some situations, eg SE 375s, the driver will have to confirm the train’s location at certain locations.

But I was replying to a poster who was referring to the class 80X fleet, ie Hitachi IET, all my replies clearly state 80X fleet.

The driver does not have to go on to TMS to open doors when they are operating the trains.

The only exception is I’m out of course situations, ie a Azuma may be stopped in platform at Biggleswade during disruption, as the TMS won’t have the train calling there, driver has to manually select the station in TmS select which doors to release, then release doors in the normal way, where as if when setting up tms at start of journey Biggleswade was included as a call, they wouldn’t need to go onto tms, they would just release doors.

 

[Watershed]

So if pay rises are always inflationary, why have the government not passed a law preventing anyone from getting a pay rise?

Inflation can be caused by many things, and indeed is an inevitable consequence of our economic system. In the vast majority of cases, employees wage rises play catch-up to already existing inflationary causes. Increasing interest rates is not the only tool that countries can use to try to control inflation. But monetary policy is a topic for another thread.

Not even during the 1970s did the government directly limit private sector pay rises. It would be an unheard-of measure, which would probably cause far more damage to the economy and to the financial markets' view of the UK than it would save in inflation.

However, as (in effect) the employer of all public sector workers, it's perfectly within the gift of the government to limit such rises.

I fear we are perhaps heading off-topic though. The key thing is that inflation is always going to be painful, and there is no inherent right to an inflationary payrise. It is something to be negotiated, not expected.

 

[Philip]

What do people think the final resolution will be in regards to the TOCs dispute?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d have thought driver release guard close would be a better compromise on IC services which don’t stop often enough for dispatching to really interrupt customer service/tickets.

That's how it is on all Avanti services already.

Voyagers are opened and closed by the driver. All the train managers can do is bleep.

 

[43066]

It is something to be negotiated, not expected.

And the government actively preventing that process is precisely what led to the current mess…

 

[XIX7007177]

Looks like ASLEF have returned a strong mandate again. GTR also involved now

 

[Thirteen]

Speaking of ASLEF, has the London Overground/Arriva Rail London offer been accepted or rejected yet?

 

[43066]

Voyagers are opened and closed by the driver. All the train managers can do is bleep.

But dispatch risk is taken by the TM. Who actually presses the button makes no odds.

 

[XIX7007177]

Speaking of ASLEF, has the London Overground/Arriva Rail London offer been accepted or rejected yet?

What was the offer?

 

[baz962]

Who would replace the staff if they let themselves be made redundant then?

What was the offer?

They are one of the tocs that have just got a new strike mandate. They are being offered 6.5%

 

[KM1991]

What do people think the final resolution will be in regards to the TOCs dispute?

5%+5%

Close booking offices, but protection against redundancy until 2025. No change to other working terms and conditions. This myth of needing to improve productivity, but only on the railway, for any chance of deserving a pay rise needs to be put in the bin asap.

That’ll be close to as good as it’s going to get.

 

[Thirteen]

They are one of the tocs that have just got a new strike mandate. They are being offered 6.5%

I would say that'll be accepted although I could be wrong.