Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

Previously this thread discussed the viability of replacing the passenger services between Skipton and Lancaster/Carlisle with buses. Today (Sunday 27th Nov., '22) provides a good idea of how long such RRBs would take, as due to engineering work all trains between Skipton and Morecambe/Carlisle have been substituted with buses.

The service to Morecambe calls at all stations en route, with the only difference being Carnforth called at as the terminating station (e.g. the final few calls are Wennington, Lancaster, Bare Lane, Morecambe, Carnforth), which suits the road layout better than the usual calling pattern. Skipton to Lancaster takes 1 hr 56 mins, and Bentham to Lancaster takes 45 mins, compared with the usual timing of around 1 hr 13 mins, and 27 mins respectively. There is one bus today which skips all stations between Skipton and Lancaster (continuing to Morecambe and Heysham), which takes 1 hr 5 mins to travel from Skipton to Lancaster.

On the route to Carlisle, the bus skips Long Preston and Dent, and takes 4 hrs 0 mins. This compares with an average timing of 2 hrs 4 mins for the train, which of course also makes two extra station calls. Skipton to Settle takes 35 mins, and Appleby to Carlisle takes 1 hr 15 mins. These compare with the usual timings of 23 mins (including a stop at Long Preston), and 41 mins respectively. Skipton to Ribblehead takes 37 mins by train, and 1 hr 5 mins by RRB.

The journeys I've chosen to focus on are those which, it my experience, are the most popular: Commuters to Lancaster, Skipton and Carlisle, daytrippers to Ribblehead, and through traffic to/from Leeds from Scotland or the Lakes. I believe the timings illustrate why a permanent RRB would be a nonstarter; while tourists to Ribblehead may not mind the additional journey time, commuters from Settle, Bentham and especially Appleby certainly would, and most would, in my opinion, move towards driving over public transport were the lines to close to passenger traffic.

Realtime Trains | 0B00 1020 Skipton to Carnforth | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 1020 departure from Skipton to Carnforth on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0B00 1115 Skipton to Heysham Harbour | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 1115 departure from Skipton to Heysham Harbour on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0B00 0950 Skipton to Carlisle | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 0950 departure from Skipton to Carlisle on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

Previously this thread discussed the viability of replacing the passenger services between Skipton and Lancaster/Carlisle with buses. Today (Sunday 27th Nov., '22) provides a good idea of how long such RRBs would take, as due to engineering work all trains between Skipton and Morecambe/Carlisle have been subsided with buses.

The service to Morecambe calls at all stations en route, with the only difference being Carnforth called at as the terminating station (e.g. the final few calls are Wennington, Lancaster, Bare Lane, Morecambe, Carnforth), which suits the road layout better than the usual calling pattern. Skipton to Lancaster takes 1 hr 56 mins, and Bentham to Lancaster takes 45 mins, compared with the usual timing of around 1 hr 13 mins, and 27 mins respectively. There is one bus today which skips all stations between Skipton and Lancaster (continuing to Morecambe and Heysham), which takes 1 hr 5 mins to travel from Skipton to Lancaster.

On the route to Carlisle, the bus skips Long Preston and Dent, and takes 4 hrs 0 mins. This compares with an average timing of 2 hrs 4 mins for the train, which of course also makes two extra station calls. Skipton to Settle takes 35 mins, and Appleby to Carlisle takes 1 hr 15 mins. These compare with the usual timings of 23 mins (including a stop at Long Preston), and 41 mins respectively. Skipton to Ribblehead takes 37 mins by train, and 1 hr 5 mins by RRB.

The journeys I've chosen to focus on are those which, it my experience, are the most popular: Commuters to Lancaster, Skipton and Carlisle, daytrippers to Ribblehead, and through traffic to/from Leeds from Scotland or the Lakes. I believe the timings illustrate why a permanent RRB would be a nonstarter; while tourists to Ribblehead may not mind the additional journey time, commuters from Settle, Bentham and especially Appleby certainly would, and most would, in my opinion, move towards driving over public transport were the lines to close to passenger traffic.

Realtime Trains | 0B00 1020 Skipton to Carnforth | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 1020 departure from Skipton to Carnforth on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0B00 1115 Skipton to Heysham Harbour | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 1115 departure from Skipton to Heysham Harbour on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0B00 0950 Skipton to Carlisle | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 0B00 0950 departure from Skipton to Carlisle on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A very detailed and well evidenced reply.

Incidentally, I've now taken the Craven Connection service bus between Skipton and Lancaster, and whilst it is an excellent and well used service, it takes over two and a half hours.

My conclusion is that both the bus and the rail service are important connections in their own right and serve different markets.

 

[Ken H]

A very detailed and well evidenced reply.

Incidentally, I've now taken the Craven Connection service bus between Skipton and Lancaster, and whilst it is an excellent and well used service, it takes over two and a half hours.

My conclusion is that both the bus and the rail service are important connections in their own right and serve different markets.

The bus serves the villages better than the railway. Long Preston is long and the train station is at the east end. People who live at the Settle end will find the bus more convenient.
Hellifield is a fair way from the main road. So the bus stops are where people live.
Coniston Cold doesnt have a railway station
Gargrave is a fair way down a lane out of the village. The main stop is in the centre with another stop at the east end.
In Skipton it serves the area where the college and the secondary schools are. I dont know how many Skipton people use it to get into town. It then stops in the High Street which is where most want to go.
BUT
If people want to go further than Skipton, they will Make the effort to get to the station. Skipton-Leeds and Skipton - Bradford both need a change by bus.
The bus is good for people in Austwick, Clapham and Ingleton though. Right through the centre of the villages.

 

[30907]

A small detail: the buses don't skip Long Preston if the train is booked to stop and are allowed 6min more, presumably to deviate from the A65.
(IF the lines were closed - which I am NOT suggesting - a replacement local bus service would serve village centres (and Hawes!) not poorly located stations and probably be a little faster as well.

PS Northern are advising that they have been unable to source the RRBs for Skipton-Carlisle today.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Is there much demand for through journeys from Nottingham, Sheffield or Barnsley to Ribblehead or is it just a desire to recreate the old Midland route? It feels like the latter, though I don't have access to the ticket sales data to say.

I am sure there is some, but I believe the real potential for any improvements over the S&C lie in encouraging long distance traffic from Leeds and Airedale line stations, and from the towns/cities south of Leeds that you mention, to Carlisle, the surrounding area (Workington, Whitehaven, Annan, Dumfries) and Glasgow and its catchment area.

The simple answer to your question in that case is, nobody really knows, because the service currently provided does not promote long distance travel a) because a change is needed at Carlisle and, 98% of the time, also at Leeds (many people balk at changing trains) and b) because the trains are slow, partly because of the 60 mph line speed, and partly because most trains stop at almost all stations.

Even the one Sunday through train from Carlisle to Nottingham is an all stations on the S&C. Great, I suppose, for the student studying in Sheffield whose home is in Langwathby, but hardly attractive to, say, a Motherwell to Nottingham passenger. (The weekday service both ways is relatively fast, in terms of scheduled stops.)

Northern Spirit (was that the name?) did run a through Leeds - Glasgow train for a few years in the mid-2000s, but that was quickly nixed by the SRA. I don't know how this loaded, but travel patterns and demand has changed a lot since then on many lines. However, nobody has tested what the potential is over the S&C.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the trouble with trains like that back then was that you had to know about them. Whereas now if an off pattern train is at a useful time it will come up on the planners. So it probably has more potential now. The thing that's more questionable is if there is enough demand to offset the cost of adding it, and I bet, short of running to Corby where there's a massive Scottish population, there wouldn't be.

 

[InkyScrolls]

A very detailed and well evidenced reply.

My conclusion is that both the bus and the rail service are important connections in their own right and serve different markets.

Thank you.

Pretty much the conclusion I've come to; the railway and the buses service different markets and should (if possible) be tailored as such.

The bus serves the villages better than the railway. Long Preston is long and the train station is at the east end. People who live at the Settle end will find the bus more convenient. Hellifield is a fair way from the main road. So the bus stops are where people live. Coniston Cold doesn't have a railway station. Gargrave is a fair way down a lane out of the village. The main [bus] stop is in the centre with another stop at the east end. In Skipton it serves the area where the college and the secondary schools are. I don't know how many Skipton people use it to get into town. It then stops in the High Street which is where most want to go. But if people want to go further than Skipton, they will make the effort to get to the station. Skipton - Leeds and Skipton - Bradford both need a change by bus. The bus is good for people in Austwick, Clapham and Ingleton though. Right through the centre of the villages.

Yes and no. The bus definitely serves Coniston Cold better, and for short journeys people may indeed prefer the bus in Long Preston, Hellifield, Gargrave, etc. But for anything longer than a short hop, the railway is surely superior - as evidenced by the RRBs (which I stand corrected on regarding Long Preston), the journey time for longer trips is immense compared with the railway.

If, as a country, we were able to properly integrate all modes of public transport, then I can certainly see an argument for closing the smaller stations (e.g. Long Preston, Clapham, Wennington, Dent, Garsdale, etc.), but only if longer distance services remained available at what you might call 'local transport hubs' (e.g. Settle, Appleby, Bentham), with reliable, guaranteed connections to the surrounding villages. This would particularly benefit places like Austwick and Hawes, as well as providing cost and time savings to the railway - at the expense of longer journey times and an additional change to the relatively few people wishing to travel to Keasden, Bell Busk, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, as a country, we were able to properly integrate all modes of public transport, then I can certainly see an argument for closing the smaller stations (e.g. Long Preston, Clapham, Wennington, Dent, Garsdale, etc.), but only if longer distance services remained available at what you might call 'local transport hubs' (e.g. Settle, Appleby, Bentham), with reliable, guaranteed connections to the surrounding villages. This would particularly benefit places like Austwick and Hawes, as well as providing cost and time savings to the railway - at the expense of longer journey times and an additional change to the relatively few people wishing to travel to Keasden, Bell Busk, etc.

This a million times over.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Given the railway's increasingly precarious financial situation, what are some ways the S&C and FoB lines could continue to provide a service, whilst also saving some money? Fewer but better timed trains would be one option. Closing the S&C overnight isn't really doable due to freight workings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the railway's increasingly precarious financial situation, what are some ways the S&C and FoB lines could continue to provide a service, whilst also saving some money? Fewer but better timed trains would be one option. Closing the S&C overnight isn't really doable due to freight workings.

You could probably get away with closing the Bentham but the S&C would be way, way too political, so it's not going to happen barring a justification like the major subsidence incident of 10 or so years back which cost millions to fix. BR failed to close it in an era when other lines were closing without that much objection.

The S&C has a pretty infrequent service anyway, though I'd agree you could grow usage by thinking better about what each train is intended for, and that might well allow a round trip or two to be taken out.

 

[Ken H]

Given the railway's increasingly precarious financial situation, what are some ways the S&C and FoB lines could continue to provide a service, whilst also saving some money? Fewer but better timed trains would be one option. Closing the S&C overnight isn't really doable due to freight workings.

The obvious ones are truncating some services at Skipton and passengers change into the electrics to Leeds/Bradford.

And simplifying the signalling. Could Settle Jct not be controlled by Hellifield? Is Garsdale really needed. Maybe replace with intermediate block?

Both lines really need separate winter and summer timetables? The demand November - March must be a lot smaller than the summer. No point running empty trains in December and crush loaded ones in July.

 

[zwk500]

The obvious ones are truncating some services at Skipton and passengers change into the electrics to Leeds/Bradford.

And simplifying the signalling. Could Settle Jct not be controlled by Hellifield? Is Garsdale really needed. Maybe replace with intermediate block?

Changing signalling requires CAPEX which isn't available right now. Some form of temporary switching out (like they did when Appleby Box needed repair) might be possible to save on signallers.

Both lines really need separate winter and summer timetables? The demand November - March must be a lot smaller than the summer. No point running empty trains in December and crush loaded ones in July.

How much can be saved by running half as many trains?

 

[30907]

Given the railway's increasingly precarious financial situation, what are some ways the S&C and FoB lines could continue to provide a service, whilst also saving some money? Fewer but better timed trains would be one option.

Which trains would you retime?

Switching out either Garsdale (as used to be done) or Kirkby Stephen might be possible?

 

[TheBigD]

Back in the 80s/90s it was Garsdale and Appleby that used to be regularly switched out. Signalling sections would then have been Blea Moor-Kirkby Stephen, and Kirkby Stephen to Culgaith, both around 25 minutes for a passenger service.

 

[Grumpy]

. Closing the S&C overnight isn't really doable due to freight workings.

What overnight freight workings?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What overnight freight workings?

I reckon they meant an outright and immediate closure of the line, not a closure from 2300 to 0600.

 

[Ken H]

Which trains would you retime?

Switching out either Garsdale (as used to be done) or Kirkby Stephen might be possible?

there used to be the concept of 'reporting boxes'. Blea Moor and Kirkby Stephen were reporting boxes, I believe and could not be switched out. Settle Station, Horton, Dent, Garsdale and Ais Gill could be switched out.
I assume a reporting box had a line to control to report each train so control knew where each train was. The other boxes didn't. But someone will know.

 

[InkyScrolls]

What overnight freight workings?

I reckon they meant an outright and immediate closure of the line, not a closure from 2300 to 0600.

I had meant overnight as 'between certain hours of darkness'; I was under the impression that the S&C carried some freight overnight, but if not then nighttime closure would be doable. At present the first and last trains do not fit into a standard twelve hour signalling shift, however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had meant overnight as 'between certain hours of darkness'; I was under the impression that the S&C carried some freight overnight, but if not then nighttime closure would be doable. At present the first and last trains do not fit into a standard twelve hour signalling shift, however.

Does it have to be a standard twelve hour shift? Does some sort of part-time or split-shift working make more sense for this sort of line? I think it would make sense to look at what the actual usage and potential usage is and why. For instance given that the leisure market primarily involves full days out hillwalking and to town plus a small amount of commuting at the southern end, could no service between say 1000 and 1500 be economic, a la France?

 

[Ken H]

Does it have to be a standard twelve hour shift? Does some sort of part-time or split-shift working make more sense for this sort of line? I think it would make sense to look at what the actual usage and potential usage is and why. For instance given that the leisure market primarily involves full days out hillwalking and to town plus a small amount of commuting at the southern end, could no service between say 1000 and 1500 be economic, a la France?

The busiest train northbound is the one just after the embargo on railcards ends. People go to Carlisle and spend varying times there so its more of a spread southbound.
An earlier train does OK at Skipton and Settle.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Does it have to be a standard twelve hour shift? Does some sort of part-time or split-shift working make more sense for this sort of line? I think it would make sense to look at what the actual usage and potential usage is and why. For instance given that the leisure market primarily involves full days out hillwalking and to town plus a small amount of commuting at the southern end, could no service between say 1000 and 1500 be economic, a la France?

I had wondered that, actually, but I'm not familiar enough with the ins and outs of signalling to know what's possible. There's a not insignificant quantity of passengers traveling from further afield (e.g. Glasgow, the East Midlands) as discussed previously, who may find the lack of a midday(ish) train inconvenient, but that the 1340 can run 'express' from Carlisle is suggestive of a lesser demand around noon, certainly to intermediate stations.

Perhaps something like the following would suffice, and allow for midday closures (freight depending):-

• Southbound departures at 0524, 0724, 0924, 1524, 1724, 1924
• Northbound (from Skipton) departures at 0627, 0827, 1427, 1627, 1827, 2027

This would allow a midday hiatus of all boxes from Howe & Co. to Blea Moor (inclusive) between approximately 1100 and 1500.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Except when DalesRail is running, when it is quite a nice day out. Though I don't know about connections from Chorley. There"s a Manchester connection so I suspect it does serve Chorley.

I am retired and prefer weekday trips to the Dales rather than taking a chance on a connection to a DalesRail that may not run.
And waiting for evening connections at Preston or Blackburn and Bolton is not a good way to end a day out.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Something like the following would suffice, and allow for midday closures (freight depending):-

• Southbound departures at 0524, 0724, 0924, 1524, 1724, 1924
• Northbound (from Skipton) departures at 0627, 0827, 1427, 1627, 1827, 2027

This would allow a midday hiatus of all boxes from Howe & Co. to Blea Moor (inclusive) between approximately 1100 and 1500.

If the hypothetical 0524 (S), 0827 (N), 0924 (N), 1524 (S) and 1724 (S) services were terminated at/started from Skipton a unit or two could be saved as well.

 

[30907]

I had wondered that, actually, but I'm not familiar enough with the ins and outs of signalling to know what's possible. There's a not insignificant quantity of passengers traveling from further afield (e.g. Glasgow, the East Midlands) as discussed previously, who may find the lack of a midday(ish) train inconvenient, but that the 1340 can run 'express' from Carlisle is suggestive of a lesser demand around noon, certainly to intermediate stations.

Perhaps something like the following would suffice, and allow for midday closures (freight depending):-

• Southbound departures at 0524, 0724, 0924, 1524, 1724, 1924
• Northbound (from Skipton) departures at 0627, 0827, 1427, 1627, 1827, 2027

This would allow a midday hiatus of all boxes from Howe & Co. to Blea Moor (inclusive) between approximately 1100 and 1500.

Cancelling the present 0957 departure from Skipton would be a disaster - I belong to a walking group and it is the train we most often use. It is consistently busy.
Make it 1027 if you like but don't cut it.
A mid day closure also cuts across the steam excursion paths which would be difficult to retime!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cancelling the present 0957 departure from Skipton would be a disaster - I belong to a walking group and it is the train we most often use. It is consistently busy.
Make it 1027 if you like but don't cut it.
A mid day closure also cuts across the steam excursion paths which would be difficult to retime!

But if it's that or close the line, would you get up early and use the 0827 instead? I would. The DalesRail is popular and that's a very early start.

Few of us want any cuts (other than our two resident Serpells, as teachers say they know who they are), but few of us want to pay more tax either, so we are where we are.

 

[yorksrob]

But if it's that or close the line, would you get up early and use the 0827 instead? I would. The DalesRail is popular and that's a very early start.

Few of us want any cuts (other than our two resident Serpells, as teachers say they know who they are), but few of us want to pay more tax either, so we are where we are.

I'd keep the current S&C services and cut the road building budget instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd keep the current S&C services and cut the road building budget instead.

There's an argument to cut the road building budget and instead spend it on urban commuter services, expanding Metrolink and the likes, but the case to spend it on the S&C is, much as I love it, super-weak.

 

[yorksrob]

There's an argument to cut the road building budget and instead spend it on urban commuter services, expanding Metrolink and the likes, but the case to spend it on the S&C is, much as I love it, super-weak.

I'm not saying improvements necessarily. There's absolutely a case for using it to keep existing well used passenger services operating, urban or otherwise.

 

[30907]

But if it's that or close the line, would you get up early and use the 0827 instead? I would. The DalesRail is popular and that's a very early start.

It runs in a slightly later path than the weekday 0920 (0957 SKI) ex Leeds actually (except in winter when AIUI it rarely runs at all).

(I'm not against economies, but cutting the busiest offpeak train of the day? 0927 - 1527-1827 would work tolerably)

 

[158756]

Given the railway's increasingly precarious financial situation, what are some ways the S&C and FoB lines could continue to provide a service, whilst also saving some money? Fewer but better timed trains would be one option. Closing the S&C overnight isn't really doable due to freight workings.

It looks like most nights there might typically be one freight working. If they really want it to run overnight the freight operator should be paying the full cost of keeping the line open for them. The whole line is over spec for what it is now the freight traffic has died. The current traffic could be accommodated by a low speed single line with minimal signalling, but obviously it'd cost a substantial sum to change it now.