Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

The one NR have built at Ais Gill fills me with disgust every time I pass it. Absolutely no regard for the wild and beautiful place it is in. They could have made an effort.

Unfortunately it's a legal requirement and GSM-R masts need as unobstructed a view of the railway as possible. It could be worse - the mast is only there because the line is still open, after all!

 

[chorleyjeff]

Maybe because the railway was there long before it was a National Park? I wonder if anyone has ever asked for permission to install a mobile phone mast at Ribblehead.

Railway operational land use authorised by enabling act of parliament includes operational structures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Fair point. What I do know, though, is that it is an established day trip destination from Lancashire, which is probably why DalesRail has persisted so long. Bit nearer than the Lakes and still nice walking country.

It is a hopeless task to make a day trip to the S&C from Central Lancashire by train to include a few hours leisure activity and costs far more than petrol for the 100 mile return trip and takes hours longer each way.

 

[yorksrob]

You just have to hope you're lucky and get the one day of the year it's not raining up there...

If you don't, there's always the inn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a hopeless task to make a day trip to the S&C from Central Lancashire by train to include a few hours leisure activity and costs far more than petrol for the 100 mile return trip and takes hours longer each way.

Except when DalesRail is running, when it is quite a nice day out. Though I don't know about connections from Chorley. There"s a Manchester connection so I suspect it does serve Chorley.

 

[tbtc]

Is there much demand for through journeys from Nottingham, Sheffield or Barnsley to Ribblehead or is it just a desire to recreate the old Midland route? It feels like the latter, though I don't have access to the ticket sales data to say.

I don’t have access to ticket data either, but the fact that people unimaginatively always seem to reach for “Nottingham to Glasgow” (very occasionally substituting “Nottingham” for “St Pancras”)… that tells me all I need to know about solutions in need of problems

It’s never Hull, is it? Or Doncaster? Huddersfield? Always Nottingham, when it comes to My Excuse For More Ribblehead Trains. I wonder if the people of Nottingham realise how essential this service ought to be for their city?

"Did you come from Nottingham or Sheffield?" "No."
"Did you come from Nottingham or Sheffield?" "No."
"Did you come from Nottingham or Sheffield?" "No."

That has the disadvantage of hitting an already-busy stretch between Wakefield W and Leeds. The stoppers to/from Featherstone don't call at Outwood, for example. And there's nowhere to squeeze in the (Bradford-)Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham via Westgate service, whch would have cut journey times to Sheffield and Nottingham by 20 minutes (and should be the next improvement along that route, not anything else (in my opinion)). Even the proposed third London-Leeds train would have run the other way, avoiding both Wakefield stations

Agreed, it’s a mess, and the combination of fast/ slow trains on a line with few overtaking options means it’s going to be very hard to squeeze more on

I’d argue that the “fast” Sheffield - Leeds service should have been up and running if Arriva still had the franchise, but now we have the Government (aka the unaccountable “Operator Of Last Resort”) all commitments/ improvements have gone out of the window

You could resonably extend the Sheffield-Rotherham-Wakefield-Leeds service, as it uses C & D at Leeds and is already diesel under wires... and it would free up a platform if not terminating at Leeds.

That doesn’t seem a bad compromise, if we MUST run through trains from South Yorkshire to Ribblehead

Fair point. What I do know, though, is that it is an established day trip destination from Lancashire, which is probably why DalesRail has persisted so long. Bit nearer than the Lakes and still nice walking country.

There’s a weekly train service

If you think that this justifies somewhere being an “established day trip destination” then there are dozens of Station pairs that get one train a day between them

Well the Nottingham service was supposed to be running via Westgate by this point anyway, so there must be room... ...I'm not sure the route is even back to pre-Covid service levels yet. And they managed to fit in the EMR HST's, which no longer run that way either too, plus the old Huddersfield terminators and the assorted capacity-draining shunt moves are gone

The proposed Nottingham - Bradford trains would at least have meant no conflicts at Westgate, whereas reversing at Kirkgate and going up the single track hill to Westgate means crossing over the southbound ECML on the flat which may cause problems

The Huddersfield terminators used to have a path that did this - agreed - but that’s the path now used by the extended Knottingley trains, it’s a zero sum game

Cut the Knottingley services back to Kirkgate and you might as well scrap them, given how transformational the direct Leeds trains have been for Featherstone etc

The EMR HSTs ran very early/ late in the day, and (as far as the Wakefield area is concerned) were essentially contra- peak (leaving Leeds early in the morning, getting back to Leeds in the middle of the evening)

Well the advantage of Ribblehead (and Horton in Ribblesdale) is that decent and scenic day or half-day hikes start right from the stations, whereas in the Lake District you would generally need to catch a bus as well to access the good stuff, which then leaves you pressed for time.

Agreed - though the fact that the S&C runs through the middle of nowhere (whilst Cumbrian stations are generally confined to bustling town centres some distance from the actual hills/lakes) is a bit of a double edged sword

If you don't, there's always the inn.

It’s funny… There’s another thread about how many hundred thousand pounds a year it’ll cost to have an additional DMU operating (given the staffing, fuel etc)

Yet on this thread it’s essential that we find lots of additional DMUs from Nottingham/ Manchester to Ribblehead so that people can go for a walk or hope that the weather is clement enough to look at some stars

I guess that the strongest argument from an economic viewpoint is that some passengers might buy a drink at the pub there, maybe even some park scratching if that’s going to improve the BCR, but this thread seems rather divorced from even the mainstream Speculative Discussion

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s a weekly train service

If you think that this justifies somewhere being an “established day trip destination” then there are dozens of Station pairs that get one train a day between them

I think there being a well-used, specifically marketed, long-running Sunday walkers' day trip service (a bit like a coach tour or charter) is rather different than there being a Parliamentary service once every Wednesday at 5am. It's a classic case of tailoring infrequent services to users, which makes sense once you go below 0.5tph or so.

Does it make money? Probably not. This is a classic, old fashioned "social inclusion" type service to take the people from the grim Northern cities to the pleasant countryside. A bit 1950s, but why not? Hiring a 156 and crew for a day minus the fares isn't going to be a king's ransom and does something useful with the line.

(I know you are probably more inclined to close it, but in which case that's a two-word response! )

 

[InkyScrolls]

[On] this thread it’s essential that we find lots of additional DMUs from Nottingham/ Manchester to Ribblehead so that people can go for a walk or hope that the weather is clement enough to look at some stars.

I guess that the strongest argument from an economic viewpoint is that some passengers might buy a drink at the pub there, maybe even some park scratching if that’s going to improve the BCR, but this thread seems rather divorced from even the mainstream Speculative Discussion.

Oh don't be ridiculous. If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that the suggestion regarding Nottingham was for services which already match up to act as through trains to Carlisle, to improve the service from the East Midlands to Glasgow. Nothing to do with Ribblehead.

And as for the 'trip' trains from Lancashire - they're obviously reasonably well used or why would they be run in the first place?

This thread is nothing to do with nostalgia, it's trying to find better ways of using a line that could be a great asset, if certain people didn't oppose the status quo for no reason other than a misplaced sense of self-righteous cynicism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This thread is nothing to do with nostalgia, it's trying to find better ways of using a line that could be a great asset, if certain people didn't oppose the status quo for no reason other than a misplaced sense of self-righteous cynicism.

To be fair "the lines should not have a future other than possibly as a footpath or cycleway" is a valid answer to the question the thread poses, but it's quite unhelpful just to rubbish all other proposals on those grounds. We already know @tbtc does not believe in the continued operation of heavily subsidised, low usage rural lines - that view is totally valid, but it doesn't help the thread to bring it in on every posting.

 

[InkyScrolls]

To be fair "the lines should not have a future other than possibly as a footpath or cycleway" is a valid answer to the question the thread poses, but it's quite unhelpful just to rubbish all other proposals on those grounds. We already know @tbtc does not believe in the continued operation of heavily subsidised, low usage rural lines - that view is totally valid, but it doesn't help the thread to bring it in on every posting.

Indeed - a valid opinion but not helpful after the first few outings.

 

[zwk500]

Oh don't be ridiculous. If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that the suggestion regarding Nottingham was for services which already match up to act as through trains to Carlisle, to improve the service from the East Midlands to Glasgow. Nothing to do with Ribblehead.

But East Mids passengers have good connections to Derby or Sheffield, from where they can catch an XC train to Edinburgh (or direct to Glasgow) and change to a very frequent E&G service. If that's really a big problem they can even go to Crewe or Manchester and change for Avanti and TPE. All 3 options would give a far quicker journey time than via the S&C for the handful of people that want to travel on that axis. Look at the motorway network, and in particular the major interchange layouts (M1/M62 is crucial here) to see where traffic demand really is.

This thread is nothing to do with nostalgia, it's trying to find better ways of using a line that could be a great asset, if certain people didn't oppose the status quo for no reason other than a misplaced sense of self-righteous cynicism.

Let's be honest, attempts to do anything to the S&C and Little North western are at least partially nostalgic.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Let's be honest, attempts to do anything to the S&C and Little North western are at least partially nostalgic.

Don't you think you're being rather presumptuous? The S&C runs at a loss but provides a lifeline for the (few) communities it directly serves; if further gainful employment can be found for it, potentially making it profitable, surely that should be the logical thing to do? I don't understand the point of view that runs along the lines of 'the S&C was a basketcase in the 80s that survived through nostalgia alone, therefore I'm going to hate its guts in the present'. It completely ignores the fact that the line is a) there, b) not going to close, and c) could be profitable if used appropriately, while d) continuing to provide a local service.

What would you do, close the S&C and Little Northwestern? Presumably you feel the same way about any famous line (or locomotive)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's be honest, attempts to do anything to the S&C and Little North western are at least partially nostalgic.

Closing them is an option, as I noted above.

However, if you're not going to close them, then looking at how they might attract more passengers is clearly worth doing, because that's how you get the subsidy down a bit.

 

[Ken H]

Closing them is an option, as I noted above.

However, if you're not going to close them, then looking at how they might attract more passengers is clearly worth doing, because that's how you get the subsidy down a bit.

Some boring things like putting a timetable case with the timetable in Settle market place may help. There are no S&C timetables in the tourist leaflet rack in Booths supermarket.
People rent holiday cottages in ribblesdale then have no clue what to do. A few settle - Skipton tickets would help. Or Gig- Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t have access to ticket data either, but the fact that people unimaginatively always seem to reach for “Nottingham to Glasgow” (very occasionally substituting “Nottingham” for “St Pancras”)… that tells me all I need to know about solutions in need of problems

It’s never Hull, is it? Or Doncaster? Huddersfield? Always Nottingham, when it comes to My Excuse For More Ribblehead Trains. I wonder if the people of Nottingham realise how essential this service ought to be for their city?







Agreed, it’s a mess, and the combination of fast/ slow trains on a line with few overtaking options means it’s going to be very hard to squeeze more on

I’d argue that the “fast” Sheffield - Leeds service should have been up and running if Arriva still had the franchise, but now we have the Government (aka the unaccountable “Operator Of Last Resort”) all commitments/ improvements have gone out of the window



That doesn’t seem a bad compromise, if we MUST run through trains from South Yorkshire to Ribblehead



There’s a weekly train service

If you think that this justifies somewhere being an “established day trip destination” then there are dozens of Station pairs that get one train a day between them



The proposed Nottingham - Bradford trains would at least have meant no conflicts at Westgate, whereas reversing at Kirkgate and going up the single track hill to Westgate means crossing over the southbound ECML on the flat which may cause problems

The Huddersfield terminators used to have a path that did this - agreed - but that’s the path now used by the extended Knottingley trains, it’s a zero sum game

Cut the Knottingley services back to Kirkgate and you might as well scrap them, given how transformational the direct Leeds trains have been for Featherstone etc

The EMR HSTs ran very early/ late in the day, and (as far as the Wakefield area is concerned) were essentially contra- peak (leaving Leeds early in the morning, getting back to Leeds in the middle of the evening)



Agreed - though the fact that the S&C runs through the middle of nowhere (whilst Cumbrian stations are generally confined to bustling town centres some distance from the actual hills/lakes) is a bit of a double edged sword



It’s funny… There’s another thread about how many hundred thousand pounds a year it’ll cost to have an additional DMU operating (given the staffing, fuel etc)

Yet on this thread it’s essential that we find lots of additional DMUs from Nottingham/ Manchester to Ribblehead so that people can go for a walk or hope that the weather is clement enough to look at some stars

I guess that the strongest argument from an economic viewpoint is that some passengers might buy a drink at the pub there, maybe even some park scratching if that’s going to improve the BCR, but this thread seems rather divorced from even the mainstream Speculative Discussion

There are other stations served by the line other than just Ribblehead, not to mention through traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are other stations served by the line other than just Ribblehead, not to mention through traffic.

There's not significant through traffic to Carlisle from the west side as that goes up the WCML. What through traffic there is is enthusiasts, and they don't mind changing as much.

 

[Iskra]

There's not significant through traffic to Carlisle from the west side as that goes up the WCML. What through traffic there is is enthusiasts, and they don't mind changing as much.

There’s decent through traffic to Glasgow, and the Cumbrian Coast. I have seen these (regular) passengers with my own eyes having travelled to Carlisle with them and then been on the same trains onwards. It’s not just about Leeds passengers but Skipton and the Aire Valley stations too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s decent through traffic to Glasgow, and the Cumbrian Coast. I have seen these (regular) passengers with my own eyes having travelled to Carlisle with them and then been on the same trains onwards. It’s not just about Leeds passengers but Skipton and the Aire Valley stations too.

That's the east side, not the west side. I think we're getting a bit of crossover with the possibility of extending a Saturday/Sunday Clitheroe service to Ribblehead for walkers a la DalesRail.

 

[Iskra]

That's the east side, not the west side. I think we're getting a bit of crossover with the possibility of extending a Saturday/Sunday Clitheroe service to Ribblehead for walkers a la DalesRail.

Ah okay, my apologies.

It was mentioned upthread, but due to my location I visit both the Peaks and Dales fairly frequently and the Peaks does tend to be more of a Manchester crowd. I think any such Hiker service needs to originate at Manchester to be truly successful and to be well-advertised to get respectable patronage. It might be more of a job for LSL rather than Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might be more of a job for LSL rather than Northern.

Though DalesRail has been run for years by Northern, FNW, NWT, NWRR and BR a long way back (1980s?) and so there is established practice of the franchised TOC or equivalent running it as a marginal thing at quite a low cost.

It's been run under a variety of structures - I think in the 1990s it was a Lancashire County Council charter (used to show as Charter Train on displays at least) but is now a franchised service? - but it's been around a long time and does work.

FWIW I believe TfW are considering the possibility of something like this from Liverpool/Manchester onto the Conwy Valley, potentially as a portion of the regular service, once the 197s are in service. "Sherpa'r Wyddfa" perhaps? But one for another thread.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we keep the discussion in this thread on the Future of the Settle - Carlisle and Forest of Bowland (Bentham) lines please.

The trip planning and reports section can be used to recommend pubs etc on the route.

thanks

 

[InkyScrolls]

Indeed.

As I see it there are three options:

• Close the line(s) (detrimental to communities en route but would save substantial sums of money)
• Leave them as they are (largely cost-negative with a few profitable services; low effort and the most likely real-world outcome)
• Make use of the tourism and time-saving potentials of a third major route towards Scotland (by having a more frequent and accelerated service, with through trains to/from locations of untapped demand).

Each has merit but surely only one has the potential to improve the line from the average person's POV?

The same applies to the FoBL, though not to the same extent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. It's clearly not going to be possible to spend a fortune on the line, but if there's marketing things you can do with the timetable and with things like named trains, then you can potentially grow custom.

I've mentioned before the idea that it would be possible to grow demand on the Conwy Valley while reducing the number of round trips per day by one, by actually thinking about what each trip should actually be for, rather than just blindly running up and down every 2-3 hours. I'm sure the S&C, Clitheroe extensions and Bentham could be looked at in this way too. I'm a big proponent of Takt, and it will be necessary to consider connections here as well (but find out which ones people are making and want to make), but when you get below hourly the value of it tends to reduce quite a lot because very rarely will a clockface 2 or 3-hourly service serve very many people all that well.

I believe this is what ScotRail are thinking with the proposed changes to the Far North which reduce to only two through trains a day but add more local services at each end. Though I don't know where that one went and if COVID killed it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Closing them is an option, as I noted above.

However, if you're not going to close them, then looking at how they might attract more passengers is clearly worth doing, because that's how you get the subsidy down a bit.

Any more Harry Potter films in the offing...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any more Harry Potter films in the offing...?

That was the other fancy viaduct (the one that wears a kilt) wasn't it?

Though talking of that viaduct I do wonder if WCRC could make a go of a Jacobite a like as a summer Saturday day out from Manchester, say (with DalesRail with a DMU remaining on a Sunday as that's a slightly different thing). It'd have to be steam to work, though - the families would never go for an HST as actually was done. It might also work the other way round on the run up to Christmas as a Christmas shopping charter to Manchester from Carlisle.

 

[O L Leigh]

That was the other fancy viaduct (the one that wears a kilt) wasn't it?

Glenfinnan, I think.

It's a flippant idea, but it certainly hasn't done The Jacobite any harm.

 

[Iskra]

Though DalesRail has been run for years by Northern, FNW, NWT, NWRR and BR a long way back (1980s?) and so there is established practice of the franchised TOC or equivalent running it as a marginal thing at quite a low cost.

It's been run under a variety of structures - I think in the 1990s it was a Lancashire County Council charter (used to show as Charter Train on displays at least) but is now a franchised service? - but it's been around a long time and does work.

FWIW I believe TfW are considering the possibility of something like this from Liverpool/Manchester onto the Conwy Valley, potentially as a portion of the regular service, once the 197s are in service. "Sherpa'r Wyddfa" perhaps? But one for another thread.

I can’t argue with the historical precedent, I’m just not convinced that the existing operator are doing all they can with it to maximise its potential.

That was the other fancy viaduct (the one that wears a kilt) wasn't it?

Though talking of that viaduct I do wonder if WCRC could make a go of a Jacobite a like as a summer Saturday day out from Manchester, say (with DalesRail with a DMU remaining on a Sunday as that's a slightly different thing). It'd have to be steam to work, though - the families would never go for an HST as actually was done. It might also work the other way round on the run up to Christmas as a Christmas shopping charter to Manchester from Carlisle.

The Limestone Pavements of the Yorkshire Dales do feature in the Harry Potter Films.

I think there are Dalesman/Fellsman runs from Lancashire, but they would presumably rather take people the full length of the line to Carlisle as they can then charge more and avoid muddy boots. The existing Dalesman service was being offered at a discounted rate this year and even then still wasn’t full, there was even talk of it being the last year it would operate while on board this year. It’s a possible use for the Staycation HST set, it could save costs by being based at Crewe still so no-out basing support required, it could also pickup en-route to Manchester and work through to Carlisle. However, the current economic climate is probably not the ideal time for this. I’m not sure steam is essential for Hikers, which would be the core market I imagine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure steam is essential for Hikers, which would be the core market I imagine.

I don't think hikers would be the market for this - they'll use the cheaper DalesRail on a Sunday - just as they use the ScotRail service to Mallaig and not the pricier Jacobite. This would be about "Harry Potter" day trips with the kids, so I'd agree Carlisle would make sense, but to sell family day trips like that it has to be steam, really. Of course that would mean Manchester Victoria - I can't quite see steam being allowed to clog up Castlefield!

 

[Iskra]

I don't think hikers would be the market for this - they'll use the cheaper DalesRail on a Sunday - just as they use the ScotRail service to Mallaig and not the pricier Jacobite. This would be about "Harry Potter" day trips with the kids, so I'd agree Carlisle would make sense, but to sell family day trips like that it has to be steam, really. Of course that would mean Manchester Victoria - I can't quite see steam being allowed to clog up Castlefield!

Ah okay, well in that case I think its best to just leave it to the existing Charter operators and if they perceive demand, they will supply the tours.

 

[ChrisC]

Oh don't be ridiculous. If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that the suggestion regarding Nottingham was for services which already match up to act as through trains to Carlisle, to improve the service from the East Midlands to Glasgow. Nothing to do with Ribblehead.

I am only an occasional traveller from the East Midlands to Carlisle, Glasgow and beyond, but on the once or twice a year I do the journey, I always try to travel via Leeds and Carlisle. There are a number of reasons for this in addition to enjoying the scenery. Sometimes I travel from Nottingham but more often from Alfreton.

The main reason is I don’t like travelling on XC Voyagers on a journey when I have luggage. Even a small case will not fit on the overhead racks and I do not like travelling with my case stored, somewhere at the end of the carriage where I can’t see it. Often the XC trains north from Derby or Sheffield are so overcrowded that the journey is very unpleasant. Therefore I find it a far more comfortable and relaxing journey to remain on the train from Alfreton to Leeds and then travel on the S&C route to Carlisle. I’d rather have a longer journey time than the stress of travelling on XC at busy times.

Travelling from Nottingham via Crewe is ok, but connections on the northbound journey are not good. Going via Manchester risks the problems of a short formed overcrowded EMR train on the Norwich to Liverpool route and cancelled TPE trains from Manchester. My preferred route in the past was from Nottingham was changing at Grantham, but very few Scotland trains now call at Grantham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main reason is I don’t like travelling on XC Voyagers on a journey when I have luggage. Even a small case will not fit on the overhead racks and I do not like travelling with my case stored, somewhere at the end of the carriage where I can’t see it. Often the XC trains north from Derby or Sheffield are so overcrowded that the journey is very unpleasant. Therefore I find it a far more comfortable and relaxing journey to remain on the train from Alfreton to Leeds and then travel on the S&C route to Carlisle. I’d rather have a longer journey time than the stress of travelling on XC at busy times.

I too avoid XC though mostly by way of travel via London instead. But fixing XC would be the priority there rather than running trains via obscure, slow scenic lines as a means of avoiding it, and I agree it's utterly dire.