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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

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Gloster

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What it comes down to is that our politicians need to lie to us and say things which they themselves don't believe to be true in order to win elections.

It is not us he is lying to: it is the Daily Mail. The Mail has become more influential than the The Times or The Daily T*t ever were. Anyway, Murdoch seems to be seeing which way the wind is blowing and the only side he wants to be on is the winning one.
 
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DelayRepay

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My understanding, but I've not read the detail of the report or any news coverage, was that a new elected body would be created to replace the Lords rather than us becoming a unicameral system.

I haven't read the detail either, but the press coverage talks about replacing the House of Lords with an elected body, representative of the UK's nations and regions. So I wonder if they are planning an electoral system like the previous EU elections, where the country is divided into regions who elect multiple representatives?
 

Thirteen

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The replacement for the House of Lords sounds more like the Senate in Australia which is a hybrid of the Lords and the US Senate.
 

edwin_m

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What mechanisms are there to do this out of interest? They have always divided opinion depending on what is at stake. During Brexit they were seen by brexiteers as an unelected but visible dinosaur that was possibly going to scupper the whole thing. At other times they have been seen as the saviour by the same people.
The House of Lords is one of the few checks and balances that can restrain to some degree a government with a large Commons majority from doing whatever it likes. Most of the time they are diligent in holding the government to account, but a chamber of hereditaries and appointees doesn't really cut it in a modern society. Most other countries have a reviewing/revising chamber, but it is a good deal more democratic.
 

Gloster

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When you look at the people that Johnson, when left to his own devices (*), wants to put into the Lords and wonder who Truss will propose, and then realise that Sunak will have a turn (and who knows how many other failed PMs before the next election) the argument becomes pretty strong. The risk that an outgoing PM could pack the House with obedient lackeys who would block a new PM’s bills exists.

We need a second chamber to examine bills, but it must be elected on a different system to the House of Commons, which will still be the only one capable of introducing legislation. The system needs to be one that has some proportional basis and makes some attempt to even out inequalities between parts of the country.

* - By this I mean resignation honours, where the PM can appoint whoever he wishes without even lip service to balance. The periodical topping up of the working peers should have some balance between parties, but even then the PM can select who comes from his side.
 

ainsworth74

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The House of Lords is one of the few checks and balances that can restrain to some degree a government with a large Commons majority from doing whatever it likes. Most of the time they are diligent in holding the government to account, but a chamber of hereditaries and appointees doesn't really cut it in a modern society. Most other countries have a reviewing/revising chamber, but it is a good deal more democratic.
Yes, that's why I'd be instantly opposed if the idea was to just get rid of the reviewing/revising chamber aspect of our system. Reforming it, even if that means abolishing and replacing I'm very in favour of however. Though, personally, the traditionalist in me would prefer if the replacement was still called the House of Lords and the members within called Lords and Ladies even though the actual arrangements bore no relation to the original chamber! But the main thing is proper reform to create a chamber which is more fit for purpose and less open to the abuses of recent decades.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The House of Lords is one of the few checks and balances that can restrain to some degree a government with a large Commons majority from doing whatever it likes. Most of the time they are diligent in holding the government to account, but a chamber of hereditaries and appointees doesn't really cut it in a modern society. Most other countries have a reviewing/revising chamber, but it is a good deal more democratic.
Which is good that Labour recognise it has a place its just how its being populated that is the issue. Personally i reckon this will resonate with the majority of the population as despite the good work the Lords do the majority of them have been voted in by Cameron, May and Johnson. Then you have the heredity peers majority are reasonable people despite political affiliation but ultimately they are only there by birth right because they sucked up to some monarch in the past or did there dirty work. Then you have the bishops who are there because the church was involved right from its inception but the country was a different place then.
 

DarloRich

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surely all we need is a second chamber elected by PR to replace the Lords. The same rules, processes and conventions can continue just remove the ermine!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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surely all we need is a second chamber elected by PR to replace the Lords. The same rules, processes and conventions can continue just remove the ermine!
I believe it should be split with majority voted in by PR but it does benefit from individuals from specialist backgrounds being involved in scrutinising legislation so maybe learned institutions should be allowed to nominate individuals for a set term.
 

DelayRepay

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Yes, that's why I'd be instantly opposed if the idea was to just get rid of the reviewing/revising chamber aspect of our system. Reforming it, even if that means abolishing and replacing I'm very in favour of however. Though, personally, the traditionalist in me would prefer if the replacement was still called the House of Lords and the members within called Lords and Ladies even though the actual arrangements bore no relation to the original chamber! But the main thing is proper reform to create a chamber which is more fit for purpose and less open to the abuses of recent decades.

I like tradition too, but I think if we're going to change things we need a break from the past. The new Upper House should be modern, ideally located outside London, and it's chamber should be circular like the Scottish Parliament to encourage cooperation rather than confrontation. We can turn the current chamber into a museum or something. Members should be able to contribute via video link to ensure it's as diverse as possible.

I'd have members serve for five years before having to stand for re-election, with a maximum of two terms per member. I'd hold an election for 20% of the seats every year so there is a constant supply of fresh ideas.

The elections would be held by PR with large regions electing multiple representatives. Whilst candidates may be members of political parties, there would be no political party names or logos on the ballot papers, and no officially recognised political groupings in the chamber.

I may allow the Upper Chamber to co-opt a small number of additional members if they feel the house as a whole would benefit from expertise in certain areas. Co-opting a member would require the support of 66% of the elected members. Co-opted members would not be able to vote.

And, to make it interesting I'd grant the Upper Chamber one very specific power. Subject to certain checks and balances, they would have the power to dismiss the government and call a general election.
 

Falcon1200

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Hopefully whatever shape the new second chamber may or may not take, there will be no place in it for the odious Tom Watson; Keir Starmer proposing him for the Lords (as well as Starmer's support for and service to Jeremy Corbyn), is for me where it all went wrong for Labour.
 

Purple Orange

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Tom Watson is who gets your back up? I’d have thought there are far more divisive characters who could make it in to the Lords than Watson, who seems fairly grounded to me.
 

brad465

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Hopefully whatever shape the new second chamber may or may not take, there will be no place in it for the odious Tom Watson; Keir Starmer proposing him for the Lords (as well as Starmer's support for and service to Jeremy Corbyn), is for me where it all went wrong for Labour.
He supported Corbyn when the latter was Labour leader, but Starmer has now very much thrown Corbyn under the bus by removing the whip and saying he doesn't see Corbyn regaining it.
 

jfollows

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Preventing Corby from standing as a Labour candidate is probably good politics given the people who didn't vote Labour in 2019 because of Corbyn, and I think Corbyn incompetently and maliciously subverted Labour and prevented it from being a proper opposition party when one was needed (well, one always is needed, but you could argue that when Corbyn was in charge that this was especially true).

Abolishing the House of Lords is long overdue from Tony Blair's botched incomplete attempt. However it's not something that's going to motivate voters and will annoy them when it gets bogged down in "trivial" complications as it's bound to.

I don't believe the "devolution" story. They all do it when they're in opposition, but when they gain power they don't want to relinquish any of it. Conservatives were the same. At the end of the day Brexit was about retaining and giving more power to Westminster. So, like with the Conservatives, it will happen in name only - councils will get "freedom" to do things but only with the purse strings controlled from London. Mayors will have no real powers, just perhaps a bully pulpit.
 

E27007

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It went wrong due to some very well-thought out long-term social engineering by the Conservatives.
Which include:
1) Sale of council houses to tenants, tenants as home owners switch allegiance in voting.
2) Diminution of the Unions and Union membership, reducing the ability and motivation for workers to assert their powers
3) the move to the right of the Labour Party in order to be electable, "New Labour" under Blair , the bedrock of socialism clause 4 removed from the Labour Party Constitution.
4) Privatisation of nationalised industries , temporary mass ownership of shares, people bribed into paying to own what is effectively "theirs" and making a windfall as the bribe on the resell, temporary as the shares soon gravitate to the big institutions.

The Conservatives are a formidable Party, few other parties in the democratic world can boast of such longevity and sustained periods in office.

I'm sure there are many more examples
 
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SargeNpton

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It went wrong due to some very well-thought out long-term social engineering by the Conservatives.
Which include:
1) Sale of council houses to tenants, tenants as home owners switch allegiance in voting.
2) Diminution of the Unions and Union membership, reducing the ability and motivation for workers to assert their powers
3) the move to the right of the Labour Party in order to be electable, "New Labour" under Blair , the bedrock of socialism clause 4 removed from the Labour Party Constitution.
4) Privatisation of nationalised industries , temporary mass ownership of shares, people bribed into paying to own what is effectively "theirs" and making a windfall as the bribe on the resell, temporary as the shares soon gravitate to the big institutions.

The Conservatives are a formidable Party, few other parties in the democratic world can boast of such longevity and sustained periods in office.

I'm sure there are many more examples
This does assume that the people who are likely to vote Labour actually want Socialist policies, i.e. Clause 4's: "common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service".

Do most voters want Socialism, or do they just want the best pay and conditions in the company they work for (with a decent pension scheme - which will in most instances include a portfolio of shares in various private companies that would be worthless if those companies were taken in state ownership).
 

E27007

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This does assume that the people who are likely to vote Labour actually want Socialist policies, i.e. Clause 4's: "common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service".

Do most voters want Socialism, or do they just want the best pay and conditions in the company they work for (with a decent pension scheme - which will in most instances include a portfolio of shares in various private companies that would be worthless if those companies were taken in state ownership).
Other than the cases of private companies entering bankruptcy, I am not aware of private companies being nationalised without the shareholders being compensated, I do recall the failing Bradford & Bingley Builiding Society being nationalised, the shares were worthless

The full wording of Clause 4 prior to reforms by New Labour:


To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service
 

JamesT

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Other than the cases of private companies entering bankruptcy, I am not aware of private companies being nationalised without the shareholders being compensated, I do recall the failing Bradford & Bingley Builiding Society being nationalised, the shares were worthless
I don't think it's happened in this country, but certainly some governments in other countries have nationalised companies without compensating the owners. Usually local subsidiaries of multinationals, e.g. Iran and Anglo-Iranian or Venezuela and an offshoot of Exxon Mobil. It tends to make people wary of investing in that country.

In this country the government does compensate, though an argument can often be had over whether they paid a fair price. For example, when Railtrack was forced into administration the shareholders were paid roughly what the shares were trading at the time. This was considerably below what they had been trading at for the previous few years. On the one hand, you can argue that the share price reflected the difficulties Railtrack were in, on the other you can argue that it was Government action/policy that had forced the price down there.

When Jeremy Corbyn was leader, it was suggested a future Labour government would nationalise, but not necessarily pay market price. https://www.ft.com/content/7db291fe-7665-11e9-bbad-7c18c0ea0201 (can't quote article, against Ts&Cs). Which is going to be rather painful if you thought the shares you were holding were worth a certain amount and suddenly receive far less.
 

ainsworth74

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Whilst there will obviously be overlap I've moved what was becoming a lengthy Brexit discussion of little relation to Labour to the Brexit thread (see here). If members which to discuss Labour's policy (or not) with regards to Brexit that probably fits in here but only if they can contain themselves to that subject. As soon as it widens out to issues relating to whether Brexit has worked/can work, whether it was a good/bad idea, whether Remainers are traitors/saboteurs, whether Brexiteers are lunatics/rose tinted denialists, etc etc it goes off-topic for this thread. I would suggest that to be safe it is likely that Brexit discussion needs to be kept to the Brexit thread because I certainly would struggle to contain myself solely to Labour's position on Brexit!
 

E27007

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This does assume that the people who are likely to vote Labour actually want Socialist policies, i.e. Clause 4's: "common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service".

Do most voters want Socialism, or do they just want the best pay and conditions in the company they work for (with a decent pension scheme - which will in most instances include a portfolio of shares in various private companies that would be worthless if those companies were taken in state ownership).
People do want much much more than the points about pay and conditions you raise, and many basic needs are socialist in principle, socialist principles such as universal access to health care independent of means, the right to be subject to universal treatment by Law and the Courts irrespective of wealth and privilege, equality of opportunities to self-progress and advance, especially their children, in education and employment , the right to vote and elect accountable governments
 

GS250

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People do want much much more than the points about pay and conditions you raise, and many basic needs are socialist in principle, socialist principles such as universal access to health care independent of means, the right to be subject to universal treatment by Law and the Courts irrespective of wealth and privilege, equality of opportunities to self-progress and advance, especially their children, in education and employment , the right to vote and elect accountable governments
I would be interested to see how a party with similar traits to Corbyn's would fare this time around.
 

DynamicSpirit

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People do want much much more than the points about pay and conditions you raise, and many basic needs are socialist in principle,

Are they? Off the top of my head the most basic physical needs are for food and shelter and a reasonable degree of comfort. History has long demonstrated that capitalism is the only known economic system capable of producing those in adequate quantities - although you could argue there is a socialist element involved in distributing them to everyone. And I'd argue the most basic emotional need for most people is to feel needed, useful, and loved, and that you are a part of your community/family/etc. That's not really a socialist principle either.

socialist principles such as universal access to health care independent of means, the right to be subject to universal treatment by Law and the Courts irrespective of wealth and privilege, equality of opportunities to self-progress and advance, especially their children, in education and employment ,

Those aren't massively controversial in the UK - they are all broadly accepted to a large extent by all mainstream political parties. And I'm dubious about whether they really count as socialist principles since historically they have been advanced just as much by liberals as by socialists. I can certainly see the philosophical connection with socialism, but the problem you'd have is that socialism tends to focus on the means of delivery (insisting on state institutions, avoiding private sector involvement) as much as the outcome, whereas things like universal access to healthcare might perfectly well be delivered privately - it requires only that the Government ultimately pay for it.

the right to vote and elect accountable governments

That's a principle of liberal democracy - nothing to do with socialism!
 

GusB

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And I'd argue the most basic emotional need for most people is to feel needed, useful, and loved, and that you are a part of your community/family/etc. That's not really a socialist principle either.
That's something that our current capitalist society fails to recognise as we force people further away from the communities in which they grew up in order to find work. The result is villages full of old people and second home owners, with traditional family bonds broken, high house prices and poor services for those who are left behind.
 

Luke McDonnell

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Preventing Corby from standing as a Labour candidate is probably good politics given the people who didn't vote Labour in 2019 because of Corbyn, and I think Corbyn incompetently and maliciously subverted Labour and prevented it from being a proper opposition party when one was needed (well, one always is needed, but you could argue that when Corbyn was in charge that this was especially true).

Abolishing the House of Lords is long overdue from Tony Blair's botched incomplete attempt. However it's not something that's going to motivate voters and will annoy them when it gets bogged down in "trivial" complications as it's bound to.

I don't believe the "devolution" story. They all do it when they're in opposition, but when they gain power they don't want to relinquish any of it. Conservatives were the same. At the end of the day Brexit was about retaining and giving more power to Westminster. So, like with the Conservatives, it will happen in name only - councils will get "freedom" to do things but only with the purse strings controlled from London. Mayors will have no real powers, just perhaps a bully pulpit.
I think Labour are more committed to devolution than you think remember in 1997 even though they did not achieve much for England they did manage to devolve power to Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent the London mayor and the Greater London Authority yes I do think they should have gone further for England and I think that the creation of the Metro Mayors and Mayoral Combined Authorities are a good start that Labour can build up on it provides a tier that you can devolve new powers too
 

nw1

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And I'd argue the most basic emotional need for most people is to feel needed, useful, and loved, and that you are a part of your community/family/etc. That's not really a socialist principle either.
True, but you've just summed up probably why, at the most basal level, I detest almost everything the Tories have done since 2016! ;)

(in the sense that, in my perception, the Tories don't care about people with views similar to my own, and as a result, we feel less of a sense of belonging in the contemporary UK than we did in, say, 1990s or 00s UK)

For balance though, the same reason would probably also explain why some other people detest Labour, or socialists and liberals in general, because they feel they don't care about "people like them".
 
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Kite159

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I think Labour are more committed to devolution than you think remember in 1997 even though they did not achieve much for England they did manage to devolve power to Scotland, Wales and to a lesser extent the London mayor and the Greater London Authority yes I do think they should have gone further for England and I think that the creation of the Metro Mayors and Mayoral Combined Authorities are a good start that Labour can build up on it provides a tier that you can devolve new powers too
All those new people jumping on the gravy train of local authorities with 6 figure salaries for hardly any work.
 

Yew

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Those aren't massively controversial in the UK - they are all broadly accepted to a large extent by all mainstream political parties. And I'm dubious about whether they really count as socialist principles since historically they have been advanced just as much by liberals as by socialists. I can certainly see the philosophical connection with socialism, but the problem you'd have is that socialism tends to focus on the means of delivery (insisting on state institutions, avoiding private sector involvement) as much as the outcome, whereas things like universal access to healthcare might perfectly well be delivered privately - it requires only that the Government ultimately pay for it.
Public ownership does not necessarily mean state ownership.
 

Tetchytyke

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Are they? Off the top of my head the most basic physical needs are for food and shelter and a reasonable degree of comfort. History has long demonstrated that capitalism is the only known economic system capable of producing those in adequate quantities - although you could argue there is a socialist element involved in distributing them to everyone.
I'd dispute that unbridled capitalism has ever provided these things. Victorian England was very luxurious if you were a mill owner, but squalid if you weren't.

No system taken to extremes work, communism doesn't work either.
 

Bletchleyite

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Those aren't massively controversial in the UK - they are all broadly accepted to a large extent by all mainstream political parties. And I'm dubious about whether they really count as socialist principles since historically they have been advanced just as much by liberals as by socialists. I can certainly see the philosophical connection with socialism, but the problem you'd have is that socialism tends to focus on the means of delivery (insisting on state institutions, avoiding private sector involvement) as much as the outcome, whereas things like universal access to healthcare might perfectly well be delivered privately - it requires only that the Government ultimately pay for it.

There's also a strong capitalist basis for universal healthcare of some form - a sick workforce isn't productive. Hence why in countries that never had it (e.g. the US), the culture is for employers to provide medical insurance in some form. If they're sick they are not working and are not making money.
 

E27007

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There's also a strong capitalist basis for universal healthcare of some form - a sick workforce isn't productive. Hence why in countries that never had it (e.g. the US), the culture is for employers to provide medical insurance in some form. If they're sick they are not working and are not making money.
Yes, but the provision of health care of individuals or groups of citizens of a country is too important to be the dictat of employers.
The provision of health care is one of the areas in which citizens of a civilised democratic society should provide via the ballot box of elected accountable government.
Similarly education defence and security, (do we want employers with private military armies).
 
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