The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[CosherB]

It's nothing to do with a 'closed shop' but again why let facts get in the way.

Yes it is. there is no nationally (let alone internationally) recognised qualification to drive trains as there is with most other such jobs (HGV, Commercial Pilot, PSV etc). The TOCs control it entirely.

How is that not a 'closed shop'?

If the system were 'open', as the above examples are, one would be able to go to an authorised training establishment and win the qualification (if one is good enough), then go get a job with a TOC.

 

[1V53]

Just to add that in any industry you get poor performers doing jobs those on lower pay would gladly do for less money. But ask anyone on this forum who is not on minimum wage or unemployed how they would feel being told 'lots of people could do your job and would do it for less'! I sense a lot of jealousy at play on this board by wannabe train crew. I'm sure we could find lots of people prepared to drive trains or planes for £8 an hour. That's not really how it works though!
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Yes it is. there is no nationally (let alone internationally) recognised qualification to drive trains as there is with most other such jobs (HGV, Commercial Pilot, PSV etc). The TOCs control it entirely.

How is that not a 'closed shop'?

If the system were 'open', as the above examples are, one would be able to go to an authorised training establishment and win the qualification (if one is good enough), then go get a job with a TOC.

I have many colleagues who got the job on merit off the street in the last few years and were then trained up by the company. The job was open to anyone and people from outside the industry got the job. That's not a closed shop!
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I think the problem really does seem to be sour grapes from wannabe train drivers who aren't good enough to get the trainee train driver jobs which are advertised periodically if you are patient and bother to look.
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I'd love to discuss this but I have a 10h middle shift tomorrow and need sleep! Goodnight.

 

[CarterUSM]

Well it's closed shop insomuch as most other transport jobs (including HGV, pilot, bus driver, driving instructor) provided I have the money (or sponsorship) I can take training tomorrow and compete in the market if I pass the course.

Most other jobs, you can take courses of some kind, get experience and compete.

The railways, like a few other professions such as the police, are fairly unique insomuch it's almost all inhouse and opportunities are very limited, which means the people in those jobs can exploit the lack of supply to replace them, which simply doesn't exist in most employment areas, only the very highest skill levels. It's not all railway grades than can do this, because there are pools of workers that can take conversion courses (especially Pway/S&T, engineers) but certainly train crew are in a unique position they are quite difficult to replace because of the way the market/industry works.

How is it a closed shop? Anyone can apply if they so wish and the vacancy is advertised.
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Just to add that in any industry you get poor performers doing jobs those on lower pay would gladly do for less money. But ask anyone on this forum who is not on minimum wage or unemployed how they would feel being told 'lots of people could do your job and would do it for less'! I sense a lot of jealousy at play on this board by wannabe train crew. I'm sure we could find lots of people prepared to drive trains or planes for £8 an hour. That's not really how it works though!
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I have many colleagues who got the job on merit off the street in the last few years and were then trained up by the company. The job was open to anyone and people from outside the industry got the job. That's not a closed shop!
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I think the problem really does seem to be sour grapes from wannabe train drivers who aren't good enough to get the trainee train driver jobs which are advertised periodically if you are patient and bother to look.
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I'd love to discuss this but I have a 10h middle shift tomorrow and need sleep! Goodnight.

Wholeheartedly agree, enjoy the shift!:cry:

 

[chuckles1066]

How about comparing the job with a bus driver? I'd argue the job of a bus driver is more stressful and demanding , but considerably less rewarding( financially)

The local bus company have big yellow stickers in their rear windows stating "you could earn upto £18,000 as a bus driver".

Upto? Hmmm.

Plus I wouldn't fancy being on any night service, having to deal with the threat of a knife being shoved in your face.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The majority of vacancies for Drivers/Guards are EXTERNAL it is a legal requirement as TOC's get money towards training, the tests for Traincrew are very tough which they should be approx only 1 in 50 from application through to final tests actually pass for guarding and atleast double that for Drivers as on top of the concentration tests etc. they have a speed test wgich alot of people fail, these tests are designed to get the people most suited to the roles available.

alot of people fail, a few pass, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to pass but you do need certain skills which not everyone has.

can someone please tell me how it is a CLOSED shop??

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Yes, but after travelling 2000m we do not engage auto pilot and then use the GPS navigation so the train drives itself and we do not have the option to have an auto pilot or an ILS type system for stopping at stations, all a pilot does in my view is steer the plane to the runway open up the throttles to V1 take off set up the auto pilot and the plane flies itself, so, Captain Speaking who has the more demanding role, a pilot or a train driver - Any reasonable person could fly an airliner with the correct training it's not rocket science

You are so ignorant it is almost beyond words. Do you really think that driving a train, controlling it in one dimension (speed) is anything remotely like controlling an aircraft in three dimensions (speed, height, direction). Compare the skill in stopping a train at a +- point of six feet at a platform with putting down a 747-400 in the rain in a crosswind in the dark.
Rocketry isn't science, it's engineering.

 

[1V53]

We are so far removed from the point of this thread now as to be beyond a joke. Why anyone is comparing flying a plane with driving a train I have no idea.

It has been said earlier so just to recap: the train crew are trained to very high standards. The knowledge required amazes most people who go through the training. The amount of 'what if' training is significant. There also has to be a certain type of person to pass the criteria. For example, it is critical that a guard doesn't 'flap' in an emergency, is confident with dealing with people, can retain knowledge, follows instructions, etc etc. It's surprising how many fail to meet the criteria. It is also, in all fairness, surprising at times how some make the criteria and then go on to be completely awful at certain key elements such as customer facing. However that is usually the fault of those managers who make mistakes in the recruitment process. That's not a TOC specific point or dig at anyone specific by the way.

I do think bus driving should be better paid and better regulated. Bus drivers should be trained in emergency evacuations etc the same as traincrew are.

It is true drivers do not steer trains. However neither do other trains have the ability to steer around them. So if your train derails or hits a vehicle on a level crossing, you have to pdq carry out a strict procedure which includes stopping other trains, ensuring the safety of the running lines etc etc.

Unless you have done the training then you don't know the facts (and that is borne out by comments such as 'if all engines fail the train driver shrugs and lights up a fag'. However unless you've learnt to fly a plane you don't know all the facts either, and unless you have done BOTH then you can't compare the two, can you?

 

[Metroland]

The majority of vacancies for Drivers/Guards are EXTERNAL it is a legal requirement as TOC's get money towards training, the tests for Traincrew are very tough which they should be approx only 1 in 50 from application through to final tests actually pass for guarding and atleast double that for Drivers as on top of the concentration tests etc. they have a speed test wgich alot of people fail, these tests are designed to get the people most suited to the roles available.

alot of people fail, a few pass, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to pass but you do need certain skills which not everyone has.

can someone please tell me how it is a CLOSED shop??

It's already been explained. Until you can pay for a course, like just about every other job, get the qualifications and apply it is a closed shop run by the TOCs.

This is the whole reason for the vast cost rises in the industry, it is impossible to get to replace people quickly and easily with a ready pool of talent, because it doesn't exist. Not because the jobs are so monumentally hard and require very special people, simply the way the recruitment process and industry works.

On a wider scale, you cannot replace whole companies very easily either. The choice is between a narrow set of bus bandits, nationalised transport concerns etc.

This absolutely differs from every other mode of transport, where if Blogs haulier, bus company or airline fail to perform, they can be undercut, someone else can provide an alternative better quality service, and a new pool of staff be recruited etc.

This is the prime reason the unions on the railways can pull as many tricks as they do, in any other walk of life, it wouldn't be tolerated especially when there are hundreds of people applying for each job.

It's also the reason you have lack of innovation and profit taking in the industry, there is very little risk. The people in it sit there and name their price.

In conclusion the whole thing should be opened up to competition at all levels OR very heavily regulated with things like no strike clauses and comparative cost comparisons.

 

[TDK]

How about comparing the job with a bus driver? I'd argue the job of a bus driver is more stressful and demanding , but considerably less rewarding( financially) . I'd also argue that a bus driver could be trained to drive trains . It's not about skills alone but more about luck. It's easier to get a job driving a Bus( once qualified) than becomming a train driver! The term closed shop comes to mind!

That is completely inaccurate statement - 90 percent of applicants fail the psycometric tests and that is why it is hard to get the job as a train driver nothing to do with closed shop whatsoever
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You are so ignorant it is almost beyond words. Do you really think that driving a train, controlling it in one dimension (speed) is anything remotely like controlling an aircraft in three dimensions (speed, height, direction). Compare the skill in stopping a train at a +- point of six feet at a platform with putting down a 747-400 in the rain in a crosswind in the dark.
Rocketry isn't science, it's engineering.

I didn't compare flying a plane to driving a train my point was anyone can fly a plane with the right training as anyone can drive a train with the correct training - this rant can go on for ever. Captain speaking is only on here to wind people up, I just replied to his comment - I am a train driver by the way and not ignorant and I can also fly a plane, not a 747 but a plane all the same!

 

[1V53]

I think 'closed shop' is the wrong phrase but I do understand the point you are making. I do find it amazing (but also quite refreshing at times) how we can, if we want to, hold them to ransom. In my grade at my depot we haven't, but at other depots they have, but this is backfiring on ALL staff now as the company dig their heels in.

I won't get into the politics too much but don't you think it significant that ATN had prolonged industrial action and possibly ATW may now be in the same boat? Odd how other TOC's haven't been hit in the same way? Anyway I digress....

As I say, to some extent I agree with what you are saying, but as has been stated, the training and competencies are exacting. So either you lower the standards or you allow people to train up at their own (not insignificant) cost. Then what are you advocating? That as soon as staff protest or ballot to strike you sack them all?

It makes me laugh: the government congratulate the people of Egypt for toppling their corrupt oppressive government whilst fiddling expenses and making strikes nigh on impossible.
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And the people of the UK say how overpaid others are and use the fact they themselves haven't had a pay rise or have dire working conditions as a reason others should too. And all the while they play into the governments hands and drive down wages and conditions. One day all these short sighted people will wake up and realise what they have done. Sadly by then it will be too late.
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(sorry I did say I wouldn't get into politics too much! Lol)

 

[Metroland]

And the people of the UK say how overpaid others are and use the fact they themselves haven't had a pay rise or have dire working conditions as a reason others should too. And all the while they play into the governments hands and drive down wages and conditions. One day all these short sighted people will wake up and realise what they have done. Sadly by then it will be too late.

That's just it, on the whole, unless they are in a very specialised field, most people cannot. They would be fired and replaced by a queue of people wanting to do the same job. The companies simply advertise, or you start up your own company.

This is not jealousy, it is a statement of fact and the prime reason some grades of railway staff can pretty much name their own price within reason, with very little the companies can do. The unions know this, and can exploit the labour supply.

 

[CosherB]

It's already been explained. Until you can pay for a course, like just about every other job, get the qualifications and apply it is a closed shop run by the TOCs.

This is the whole reason for the vast cost rises in the industry, it is impossible to get to replace people quickly and easily with a ready pool of talent, because it doesn't exist. Not because the jobs are so monumentally hard and require very special people, simply the way the recruitment process and industry works.

On a wider scale, you cannot replace whole companies very easily either. The choice is between a narrow set of bus bandits, nationalised transport concerns etc.

This absolutely differs from every other mode of transport, where if Blogs haulier, bus company or airline fail to perform, they can be undercut, someone else can provide an alternative better quality service, and a new pool of staff be recruited etc.

This is the prime reason the unions on the railways can pull as many tricks as they do, in any other walk of life, it wouldn't be tolerated especially when there are hundreds of people applying for each job.

It's also the reason you have lack of innovation and profit taking in the industry, there is very little risk. The people in it sit there and name their price.

In conclusion the whole thing should be opened up to competition at all levels OR very heavily regulated with things like no strike clauses and comparative cost comparisons.

Absloutely spot on!
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I can also fly a plane, not a 747 but a plane all the same!

I very much doubt that, given your earlier post. It displayed a marked lack of understanding of what flying is about, even at the most basic level. The average 'plane spotter would have penned something more accurate. Is it MS Flite Sim you fly, then?

 

[1V53]

That's just it, on the whole, unless they are in a very specialised field, most people cannot. They would be fired and replaced by a queue of people wanting to do the same job. The companies simply advertise, or you start up your own company.

This is not jealousy, it is a statement of fact and the prime reason some grades of railway staff can pretty much name their own price within reason, with very little the companies can do. The unions know this, and can exploit the labour supply.

That's true. But you can't just start up your own railway company (well you can but look what sadly happened to WSMR)....

My point remains that there seems to be some jealousy at play here. I saw everything that is being mentioned as 'bad' here, decided it was 'good' and set my sights on a job in the industry. Very possibly it won't last for ever but that will be a bad thing not a good thing.

I agree that the unions got too big for their boots in the 70's and whilst I don't feel that Thatcher was good and Scargill bad, I do feel it has gone too far in the employers favour now and in many industries the free Market forces and lower wages and conditions is a BAD thing. It's not something we should all hail as the way forward. In time if it carries on we are going to see parliament burning and politicians scuttling to safety. Anarchy. That's a frightening thought. There needs to be some redressing of the balance, not all tutting at the last bastions of trade unionism just because it has gone from where everyone else works and now suffers because of it. Wake up people.
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Captain Speaking. I have corrected several of the inaccurate statements you have made in your arguments over the past couple of days, one example being your 'light up a fag' comment. Will you acknowledge you were wrong or are you just going to continue posting, blithely ignoring facts and thus losing credibility?

I like to think you aren't a provocative troll but unless you can revisit posts, accept when you are wrong and see both sides sometimes, I can't help feeling that's what you are. I hope I am wrong and you will prove thus by stopping ignoring corrections when you get things wrong?

 

[Metroland]

That's true. But you can't just start up your own railway company (well you can but look what sadly happened to WSMR)....

My point remains that there seems to be some jealousy at play here.

I don't think so, I can only speak for myself, but I have worked for the railways and done everything I wanted to do. If I really want to drive trains, I'd go to a preserved railway, albeit it's not quite the same at 25mph. But the truth is the job never excited me too much.

People are just displaying a frustration at the two fingers we get from some staff, who are lucky enough to get jobs and then transfer to a sort of bubble divorced from reality, where the customer not the highest priority, and you wonder why some of them are there at all.

I don't think (in fact I know) some of these jobs are not as easy as perhaps the popular perception, but at the same time I do see very restrictive practices going on, and it's not a great surprise things cost what they do, while the rest of us pay.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It's already been explained. Until you can pay for a course, like just about every other job, get the qualifications and apply it is a closed shop run by the TOCs.

This is the whole reason for the vast cost rises in the industry, it is impossible to get to replace people quickly and easily with a ready pool of talent, because it doesn't exist. Not because the jobs are so monumentally hard and require very special people, simply the way the recruitment process and industry works.

On a wider scale, you cannot replace whole companies very easily either. The choice is between a narrow set of bus bandits, nationalised transport concerns etc.

This absolutely differs from every other mode of transport, where if Blogs haulier, bus company or airline fail to perform, they can be undercut, someone else can provide an alternative better quality service, and a new pool of staff be recruited etc.

This is the prime reason the unions on the railways can pull as many tricks as they do, in any other walk of life, it wouldn't be tolerated especially when there are hundreds of people applying for each job.

It's also the reason you have lack of innovation and profit taking in the industry, there is very little risk. The people in it sit there and name their price.

In conclusion the whole thing should be opened up to competition at all levels OR very heavily regulated with things like no strike clauses and comparative cost comparisons.

When I appied for First North Western, I filled in an application form, with the experience I had in other fields that would help my appication I then got put through to an interview, psychometric training was next, 10 of us started that day by the end of the day there were only 2 left, I then passed my medical and got a start date, now someone tell me how that is closed, I applied off the street, I didn't know anyone on the railway, I got the job on my own merit, I didn't pay for any courses, anyone else could easily apply for the same position.

The system is very fair and very strict, alot of people don't get through just like any job or are they closed as well?

 

[313103]

I do feel it has gone too far in the employers favour now and in many industries the free Market forces and lower wages and conditions is a BAD thing.

Well it would appear that is what some on here want my dear friend. They would like you to have the same conditions in driving your train as the children who make your trainers do in a Chinese sweatshop. If that wasn't the case they wouldn't moan about what is going on in our industry. It is always the staffs fault why there is problems in the rail industry. Why do you (i mean the vast majority of people who are unhappy with the rail unions looking after their members) always want them to be paid the lowest common denominator? Surely nowadays most people join the railways because the salary is comparable and competitive. I know i go to work to pay my bills not because i love the job so much i would do it for nothing, or is that what we should have people driving trains and fixing the track based on the fact they want to do it for nothing rather then getting paid a wage that can pay their bills?

Perhaps you would like me on minimum wage? You pay me peanuts you will most certainly get monkeys. Perhaps all those on here that always criticize us should look at their own back yard should we compare someone who writes books to someone who drives trains and their look at what they have earned at the end of the year. Shall we compare someone who plays football for £125,000 a week to someone who is a Conductor getting abuse from passengers?

The answer would always be No. Perhaps as we are comparing salaries between train drivers and pilots (why that is comparable i have no idea but eh ho). Perhaps all train drivers should get the lowest salary that can be found in the industry, then we should have all the pilots on lowest paid salary as well. It bloody works both ways.

 

[1V53]

I don't think so, I can only speak for myself, but I have worked for the railways and done everything I wanted to do. If I really want to drive trains, I'd go to a preserved railway, albeit it's not quite the same at 25mph. But the truth is the job never excited me too much.

People are just displaying a frustration at the two fingers we get from some staff, who are lucky enough to get jobs and then transfer to a sort of bubble divorced from reality, where the customer not the highest priority, and you wonder why some of them are there at all.

I don't think (in fact I know) some of these jobs are not as easy as perhaps the popular perception, but at the same time I do see very restrictive practices going on, and it's not a great surprise things cost what they do, while the rest of us pay.

If you go to a preserved railway you wouldn't get paid though. Many train drivers don't find it 'exciting' but look at the terms and conditions of the job, and apply. When they find their employer wanting to erode those terms, they protest. Incidentally there are also BA staff, train cleaners and maintenance workers striking or balloting for industrial action. Is it the fact that employers cant just sack all the train drivers and replace them with cheap labour that upsets you?

I agree that there are employees that don't appreciate their jobs, their salary, their conditions. There are also those who aren't very good at their job. Drivers do get sacked and disciplined too though, then replaced, often by advertising externally as pointed out earlier. I'm sure in any job there are bad eggs. Some seem to be invincible even as doctors, pilots, bus drivers etc despite the ready Market of staff available. There are many rude and belligerent bus drivers despite the ability for anyone to go and get a PCV license and pay for it themselves.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[rodders133]

I have just come across this thread, and registered on this forum because of it.

Firstly, I think quite a few people are missing the point here. The amount an ATW driver already gets paid and what this 12% figure thats been thrown around would bring that amount to, does not actually matter. £20k, £40k, 100k......it is not relevant.
The point is, that ATW are trying to change drivers terms and conditions, that they signed up for, to now include enforced Sunday overtime.
At ATW, most of your annual leave are rostered for you in blocks. The employee has no choice where those blocks fall within the year. They can try to do swaps with others but thats hit and miss. The remainder of the annual leave is in floating days. These can be used to book odd days when needed, ie - a family wedding, or the like. Here's the catch, an employee could book this day 6 months in advance, and be told 3 days before the family wedding that his annual leave application has been declined. This happens time and time again.
Sundays however, at the moment are untouchable. It is the ONLY day you can really plan anything concrete. I havent worked a Sunday for years and dont particularly want to be forced to. Its not what I signed up for.

The 12% figure has been cleverly disguised by ATW as a pay rise, but the 1 year no strings rise which is the true offer is 3.7%......But, this isnt even an offer, as the whole deal is one package. Drivers do not want 12% or more, like how it is being portrayed in the media. They want significantly less. They just want to keep their rights to not be forced to work Sundays.

The whole offer is being portrayed as a pay rise, but actually most of it is all about buying conditions. This should be a complete separate issue and not be part of a pay increase

 

[1V53]

In fairness though the drivers have been calling for parity with other drivers this time. The interesting debate here is that the 3.7% part of the deal was sub inflation. Other TOC's have been giving higher rises so ATW drivers have fallen behind. Drivers who have seen their pay eroded are now getting fed up of it.

The company say they have a large number of applicants etc and that's true. It's also true that pay has fallen behind. Ok so drivers can go to another TOC but if this is left unchallenged and standards and pay fall it will impact on other TOC's eventually.

Let's face it there are Polish migrants willing to drive buses and trains and planes for under £10 an hour. Do we fight to protect our livelihoods or do we just let ALL jobs fall to the lowest wage and poorest conditions?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The majority of vacancies for Drivers/Guards are EXTERNAL it is a legal requirement as TOC's get money towards training, the tests for Traincrew are very tough which they should be approx only 1 in 50 from application through to final tests actually pass for guarding and atleast double that for Drivers as on top of the concentration tests etc. they have a speed test wgich alot of people fail, these tests are designed to get the people most suited to the roles available.

alot of people fail, a few pass, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to pass but you do need certain skills which not everyone has.

can someone please tell me how it is a CLOSED shop??

I'll try.

I can pay a company to teach me to drive a road vehicle and, once I've passed my test I can apply anywhere for a job that includes driving road vehicles.
I can pay a company that can teach me to fly an aeroplane and, once I've obtained my basic P.P.L. and I can pay for further instruction to enable me to fly a bigger multi-engined aeroplane. I can now apply to small - and not so small - airlines for a pilot's job.
I can pay (if I've got the minimum exam results) for the five years of college it takes to study and qualify to be a vetinary surgeon. Once I've got that I can apply to a group vetinary practice for a job.
There is nowhere that I can go to and pay to learn and and pass the relevant examinations that a train driver requires. I have to have the job before I can be trained - by my employer.

 

[1V53]

And your point is? If I want the job I apply, go through the same process as anyone else and if I'm good enough I get it. If I'm not I come on a forum and bleat about the closed shop. Join the queue of failed train drivers. There's plenty in it!

 

[rodders133]

In fairness though the drivers have been calling for parity with other drivers this time.

Yes, this is true, and if drivers thought they were going to get parity with other tocs without giving up their Sundays they are very much mistaken.
However, even with the 12% increase, it still leaves ATW drivers quite a bit behind other tocs. Arriva xc drivers for instance are on ~£48k. I dont really want to get into the amounts, as I said before, it shouldnt matter. The vast majority will take a lower raise and keep their conditions.
Before the public outcry against the drivers begins, it should be noted that the ball is in ATW`s court here and that the drivers do not want 12% or more. I feel if ATW offered inflation on a 1 yr no strings deal theyd have their hand snapped off.

Also, all this talk about the economic climate. A few years ago, when the state our country was in was becoming apparant and the credit crunch etc was just setting in, ATW and their drivers were in a pay dispute.
An offer was rejected, and ATW sent out what was basically a begging letter to all drivers, saying the state of the economy and businesses in general meant they could not offer anymore and to take a look around at different areas of the rail industry, namely freight who were maknig people redundant.
Eventually, and I have no idea how, as the deal was voted against 65/35, Aslef accepted this deal (I still wonder how this happened and how it can happen, but I know a fair few drivers immediately left aslef and moved to RMT after this).
A few weeks afterwards, ATW was in the papers saying how their profit was soaring and how the downturn in the economic environment had actually HELPED the company and INCREASED profits.
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@Barlowboy,

You can actually pay to send yourself through the Pshycometric tests that are recognised throughout the rail industry, that would basically put you to the top of the queue when applying for a trainee driver position

 

[The Barlow Boy]

And your point is? If I want the job I apply, go through the same process as anyone else and if I'm good enough I get it. If I'm not I come on a forum and bleat about the closed shop. Join the queue of failed train drivers. There's plenty in it!

Oh do keep up. The point is it's not possible to gain a nationally recognised qualification for a train driver's rules without first getting a job on the railway. I'm not a failed train driver, I never wanted to be a train driver.

 

[1V53]

I think you've made some valid points there rodders. I think we also have to accept some train enthusiasts, and some bitter failed wannabe train drivers, and some of the rest of the general public, don't want to look at both sides. Drivers are paid more than they are or they've had no rise or have lost their jobs therefore drivers = greedy overpaid etc. It's life and we have to accept it.
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Oh do keep up. The point is it's not possible to gain a nationally recognised qualification for a train driver's rules without first getting a job on the railway. I'm not a failed train driver, I never wanted to be a train driver.

And as I said: your point is (ie "so what"?)

Apologies for my incorrect assumption

 

[TDK]

Yes it is. there is no nationally (let alone internationally) recognised qualification to drive trains as there is with most other such jobs (HGV, Commercial Pilot, PSV etc). The TOCs control it entirely.

How is that not a 'closed shop'?

If the system were 'open', as the above examples are, one would be able to go to an authorised training establishment and win the qualification (if one is good enough), then go get a job with a TOC.

One can go to an organised training establishment and take the psycometric assessment and also pay to do driver's rules, however there is no scope to be able to lean how to drive a train over the 225 hours you need unless you belong to that company as when you learn to drive a train that is a service train and unless you work for the company it is against all rules for someone to drive a train in service if they are not employed with that company, this isn't a closed shop it is the rules.

 

[1V53]

I am just staggered that nobody has built 10-20 miles of dedicated railway line, constructed to standards that will allow 80-120mph running and furnished with several different types of service train to enable them to train up people who want to learn to drive trains so that they can, with others, form a willing pool of keen enthusiastic train drivers eager to work for ATW for £34k.

I just don't get the point in the argument. No you can't go and train up as a train driver independently then apply for a job and get it 'just like that' because you have a ticket. You have to apply, get the job on merit then get trained up. So what?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Oh do keep up. The point is it's not possible to gain a nationally recognised qualification for a train driver's rules without first getting a job on the railway. I'm not a failed train driver, I never wanted to be a train driver.

with the amount of different traction/routes etc. its a virtually impossability, hell between emu/dmu local stopper to hst everything is different, the only way you could get a so called qualification is to sign every bit of traction/route/rule im pretty sure if i learned how to fly a bi plane I wouldn't be allowed in the cockpit of a 747 until I TRAINED up on it!

 

[merlodlliw]

I am just staggered that nobody has built 10-20 miles of dedicated railway line, constructed to standards that will allow 80-120mph running and furnished with several different types of service train to enable them to train up people who want to learn to drive trains so that they can, with others, form a willing pool of keen enthusiastic train drivers eager to work for ATW for £34k.

I just don't get the point in the argument. No you can't go and train up as a train driver independently then apply for a job and get it 'just like that' because you have a ticket. You have to apply, get the job on merit then get trained up. So what?

The Army used to have its own set of lines for training, forget the area, perhaps still in use.

 

[CosherB]

with the amount of different traction/routes etc. its a virtually impossability, hell between emu/dmu local stopper to hst everything is different, the only way you could get a so called qualification is to sign every bit of traction/route/rule im pretty sure if i learned how to fly a bi plane I wouldn't be allowed in the cockpit of a 747 until I TRAINED up on it!

Learning the ins and outs of a particular aircraft is called a type rating. It's over and above one's flying qualifications. Likewise, route training is known as a Line Check, again this is over and above ones qualification as an airline pilot and is type and route specific.

This final bit of a pilot's training is usually the only bit carried out by the employing airline (though I know of guys who have done their own Type Rating - hiring a Boeing 737 at a couple of thousand pounds an hour!). If there were to be a rail equivalent of this it would be training by the TOC on the specific unit and route, over and above a generic 'train drivers' licence' the posession of which would have got the driver his position with the TOC in the first place.

 

[rodders133]

What about apprenticeships in other fields than train driving? Is that not the same thing. A lot of job vacancies do or at least did require someone to be time served in order to apply. You cant buy that.