Class 377/5 cascade to Southern

[387star]

Having driven these units in 2016/7 at Thameslink I take a weird interest in them!

They have had Southern interiors from when they were new due to being originally ordered for Southern and then forced to the then First Capital Connect if not mistaken?

They were refreshed in 2016 with lino vestibule areas replaced by carpet and new graffiti resistant panels as per the Southern 377 refresh at thar time. I remember taking a refreshed 377 out of Selhurst empties to Bedford at the time.

Looking forward to seeing then on the coast. They have the perspex divider in the middle of the leading and trailing coaches as well as the first class partition as per the /4 series so are superior in this regard

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'll be sorry to see them go

I have often liked the declassified first class mini-saloon in one of the driving coaches, although not quite the same as a compartment as everyone still walks through.

At least I've managed to avoid most of the 465/9's ....

Are the transfers imminent now?

 

[WizCastro197]

Having driven these units in 2016/7 at Thameslink I take a weird interest in them!

They have had Southern interiors from when they were new due to being originally ordered for Southern and then forced to the then First Capital Connect if not mistaken?

They were refreshed in 2016 with lino vestibule areas replaced by carpet and new graffiti resistant panels as per the Southern 377 refresh at thar time. I remember taking a refreshed 377 out of Selhurst empties to Bedford at the time.

Looking forward to seeing then on the coast. They have the perspex divider in the middle of the leading and trailing coaches as well as the first class partition as per the /4 series so are superior in this regard

Are you aware when they are moving? I am sure it relies heavily on 313 withdrawal.

 

[brad465]

Have they got a transfer date lined up yet? My understanding is 12x will return when 313s leave, but Southeastern want the remaining 707s to come from SWR first.

 

[JonathanH]

Was there not a suggestion in the class 313 thread that Southern would be able to achieve 313 withdrawal without the 377/5s by GTR bringing in three 387s from GWR and reducing some other formations?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to ensure we stick to actual updates in this thread, as any posts which are of a speculative nature belong in the relevant forum section. Thanks

 

[physics34]

Have they got a transfer date lined up yet? My understanding is 12x will return when 313s leave, but Southeastern want the remaining 707s to come from SWR first.

This was the plan in august. No official update since.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Not heard any suggestion of more 387s coming in from anywhere.

With all the industrial unrest and ensuing lack of resources there’s no way at all the Class 701s will be able to get the Class 707s across to South Eastern to send the Class 377/5 to Southern!

So. Either Southern just operates even less and even shorter trains or something else happens!!

 

[WizCastro197]

Not heard any suggestion of more 387s coming in from anywhere.

With all the industrial unrest and ensuing lack of resources there’s no way at all the Class 701s will be able to get the Class 707s across to South Eastern to send the Class 377/5 to Southern!

So. Either Southern just operates even less and even shorter trains or something else happens!!

Aren't most Southern trains as short as you can get them? Can't have a 4 coach Southampton and Bognor!

 

[swt_passenger]

I get the feeling this has all been up in the air for many months, but I can’t pin down any previous discussions, I guess they’re buried away in different subjects such as 707 transfer, 701 introduction, 313 withdrawal, etc etc?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Aren't most Southern trains as short as you can get them? Can't have a 4 coach Southampton and Bognor!

Options on the table to SN are among other things:

4 & 8 car Grinstead combos
4 car W Croydons & Rounders

Trust me, there’s scope to run even shorter trains.

Or worse still less trains altogether. Hourly Horsham via Mitcham and no Dorkings for a start.

Beckenham could go back to every 90 mins.

Abolish London-Southampton (unless they’ve already done that?). London to Ore can terminate Eastbourne with a 3 car 377 shuttle connection.

None of the above is certain, or planned, but there is a massive crew and stock shortage on SN and desperate measures are likely.

 

[WizCastro197]

4 & 8 car Grinstead combos
4 car W Croydons & Rounders

Trust me, there’s scope to run even shorter trains.

Or worse still less trains altogether. Hourly Horsham via Mitcham and no Dorkings for a start.

Beckenham could go back to every 90 mins.

Abolish London-Southampton (unless they’ve already done that?). London to Ore can terminate Eastbourne with a 3 car 377 shuttle connection.

Victoria-Southampton hasn’t been abolished. Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria has but there is still one train per day. All Portsmouth trains now start/terminate at Portsmouth and SS.

Why does there need to be a shuttle connection? Trains already split at Eastbourne and 4 coaches go on to Ore not all 8/12.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Victoria-Southampton hasn’t been abolished. Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria has but there is still one train per day. All Portsmouth trains now start/terminate at Portsmouth and SS.

Why does there need to be a shuttle connection? Trains already split at Eastbourne and 4 coaches go on to Ore not all 8/12.

Because you can then run a 3 car shuttle and if you’re really going for a screw the punters run a 4 car from London.

 

[WizCastro197]

Because you can then run a 3 car shuttle and if you’re really going for a screw the punters run a 4 car from London.

No I meant, 8/12 operate a Victoria-Ore service until Eastbourne where the back 4 split off leaving 8/4 behind at Eastbourne to wait for another 4 coach that has just come from Ore.

 

[Southern Dvr]

I think anything formed of 12 cars outside the peak is going to be exceptionally rare. Certainly unlikely at weekends.

 

[WizCastro197]

I think anything formed of 12 cars outside the peak is going to be exceptionally rare. Certainly unlikely at weekends.

Not really the 15:xx out of Eastbourne to Victoria is formed of 12 coaches? That’s out of peaks.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Not really the 15:xx out of Eastbourne to Victoria is formed of 12 coaches? That’s out of peaks.

Not on its return journey. The up working will be a strategic stock move I think.

My point is that soon 12 car trains will be a rarity.

 

[RobShipway]

Not really the 15:xx out of Eastbourne to Victoria is formed of 12 coaches? That’s out of peaks.

Isn't that service though in preparation for the peak time return?

 

[WizCastro197]

Isn't that service though in preparation for the peak time return?

Yes although I have just realised it can't possibly be the 15:35, because that one originates from Eastbourne, so it was the 16:06 which reaches Victoria at 17:39. There was already 8 coaches sat on the platform and 4 came along from Ore and attached to the front (depending on which way you look at it)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2022 ==

 

[Andy1673]

Both 15:35 and 16:06 off Eastbourne are 12 coaches. One unit for 15:35 originated off Lovers Walk depot and one unit for 16:06 off Eastbourne sidings. Both later forming peak services to Littlehampton on their return working off London. For some reasons Southern want to get them as 12 coaches formation for diagramming purposes on late evening.

 

[Andy1673]

15:35 later drops one unit for Littlehampton Shed other two form another Littlehampton return then going to Littlehampton Shed for overnight
16:06 keeps 12 coaches until late evening because they all need for 22:15 off Victoria splitter - 8 to Bognor Regis then overnight and 4 for Eastbourne then overnight
All these units form morning peak services on next day

 

[PGAT]

Trust me, there’s scope to run even shorter trains.

Just because you technically CAN run shorter trains it doesn’t mean that it should be happening. If at any point demand increases on a relatively short notice then Southern will be very screwed.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Just because you technically CAN run shorter trains it doesn’t mean that it should be happening. If at any point demand increases on a relatively short notice then Southern will be very screwed.

I am not recommending any of this!!

SN are being screwed by the DfT - nobody at SN wanted to see the 455s go because we all knew it would mean less services and shorter trains. That’s what we got.

as a regular on the West London Line I can tell you for certainty nobody wants to be running 4 cars around on it and none of us wanted it cut back to Watford.

 

[WizCastro197]

I am not recommending any of this!!

SN are being screwed by the DfT - nobody at SN wanted to see the 455s go because we all knew it would mean less services and shorter trains. That’s what we got.

as a regular on the West London Line I can tell you for certainty nobody wants to be running 4 cars around on it and none of us wanted it cut back to Watford.

I am unsure as to whether 'nobody' wanted to see them go because of sentimental relationship with the class or actually just shorter trains but they were ageing rather quickly, no refurbishment could hide that so it might as well of been the end of the line when they were eventually withdrawn. However it was disappointing that Southern did not source an appropriate replacement, but DfT may have well prevented that as usual.

Cutting it back to Watford just further obsoletes the service at London Overground operate an almost identical service but Southern I think miss a couple of stops. Although it does start at East Croydon so I guess it alleviates the issue a little. Hasn't the WLL been running 4 coaches for a while? I don't think it should really be a surprise.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The loss of 46 x 4-car units suddenly with no replacement told us all trouble was ahead. Not sentimentality.

the units it should be remembered were most of the way through C4 overhauls.

WLL 4-cars is a nightmare most of the time. Surprise or no surprise it’s unacceptable.

 

[yorkie]

However it was disappointing that Southern did not source an appropriate replacement, but DfT may have well prevented that as usual.

That's exactly what is being stated to have happened.

 

[WizCastro197]

That's exactly what is being stated to have happened.

Apologies, must've missed that part

 

[PGAT]

Goodness knows what will happen to Southern in a couple of decades when their 377s are getting rusty and are getting closer to retirement.

 

[WizCastro197]

Goodness knows what will happen to Southern in a couple of decades when their 377s are getting rusty and are getting closer to retirement.

Thankfully still not for 2 decades as you say, and most of them seem to be a good working condition for now, it was a bit of a waste of money on that refurbishment if carpets and seat covers weren't going to be replaced. Hopefully governmental control will be different even if it still under a Conservative Government, that funding will be provided for new trains.

 

[physics34]

Im STILL confident the 379s will be involved in some kind of cascade maybe also involving the rest of the 377/5s. Southern will soon be 'desperate' for more stock. Depots have the space, even if they dont have the drivers. Weekend ridership over 100%, weekday ridership 80%. Bloody politics. Another alternative is to scrap the lightly loaded GX and have those 387s used more economically.