Will all trains on the GWML need to stop at Old Oak Common?

[The Planner]

Not always. Look at how Birmingham New Street acts as a disincentive to travel due to the inability to get quickly between platforms. I suspect OOC will be similar, all about the retail offering and preventing ticket less travel at the expense of a seemless journey experience.

Also, if such numbers are going to be using this station , id argue it will slow down GWR services by more than 5 minutes, with probably at least 4 or 5 minutes just to facilitate boarding on rolling stock with small end doors and people with large amounts of luggage. Add in the inevitable slow approach that is forced on GWR drivers, id say it'll be nearer 10 minutes slower to Paddington.

10 minutes? no chance. A Reading call costs 3-4 minutes.

 

[Purple Orange]

For the sake of the debate, can we at least acknowledge that while some people may want a through service and prefer that, it does not mean a majority prefer that option. It also does not mean the option to change at OOC should be discouraged either. This through service argument can also be flipped: many people value their time far more than sitting on a packed 4-car Voyager for an additional hour, and many people make a change of train for many routes without a problem.

I get that some people may worry that their nearest mainline station may lose long distance direct connections, but if a significantly large enough number of people transfer to HS2 for whatever reason (it may be cheaper, and more frequent, not just quicker), then there is a risk that an existing direct service may not be the best use of capacity. Other services that have demand could use that path that are prevented from doing so by the existence of long distance trains. Rather than two Cross Country services between Manchester & Birmingham, I suspect there will just be one (perhaps to Bristol), with the Manchester-Bournemouth service split in to a Bournemouth-Birmingham Moor Street service and some additional stopping services feeding in to Manchester & Birmingham. It will be the frequency, speed and OOC that facilitates this.

 

[MarkyT]

An interesting question. Less active people will still probably prefer the through train.
And will HS2 really bring cheaper fares ? That has yet to be proved.

I expect the two options will continue to exist and prices will vary according to demand. I suspect it will be difficult to get a cheap SW-North ticket via OOC during peak business/commuter hours, when London-bound trains will already be full, but if you can travel mid-afternoon, mid-week in February there might be some bargains to be had that way. Reading has always been a bit of an enigma as even now with tube transfers, via London to many Northern destinations can be quicker than direct XCs, although 'via London' prices apply of course.

 

[PTR 444]

So - all GWR journey times increased by how much? 5 minutes?
And probably more overcrowding?

And for what purpose ? Passengers from say, Birmingham to/from Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, etc. are hardly likely to want to use HS2 and change at OOC when they already have through services.

OOC will have better onward transport connections to the rest of London than Paddington

Paddington has by far the smallest number of passengers leaving by foot (11%) of all London termini. The next lowest is Marylebone at 19%

Interesting statistic. Although I’m surprised about Marylebone considering its only Underground connection is with the Bakerloo Line and Baker Street is only a short walk away.

 

[paul1609]

It just isn't going to happen. Having passengers on board for a journey that short doesn't work with ensuring long distance capacity is maintained.

On HS1 you can travel Stratford to St Pancras. By far the busiest section is Stratford to Ebbsfleet, I dont see why OOC to Euston would be any different. A huge number are going to get off at OOC for a direct Elizabth Line train to their destination.

 

[DanNCL]

Not always. Look at how Birmingham New Street acts as a disincentive to travel due to the inability to get quickly between platforms. I suspect OOC will be similar, all about the retail offering and preventing ticket less travel at the expense of a seemless journey experience.

A large retail offering can be provided without worsening the journey experience, Wien Hbf is an excellent example of that.

 

[irish_rail]

10 minutes? no chance. A Reading call costs 3-4 minutes.

From 125mph to a stop (with standard GWR driving will take about 3 minutes on its own. Then add in a few minutes for passengers on and off, then half a minute to accelerate to 50mph, so I'd say about 7 in total.

 

[edwin_m]

If more passengers are expected to travel via OOC instead of using existing Cross Country services does that mean longer trains will be required on the GWR long distance services?

It's likely that Bristol-Birmingham would still be quicker by the existing route. OOC might be quicker for Bristol to HS2 stops north of Birmingham, due to avoiding the transfer between New Street and Curzon Street.

Reading to Birmingham (or anywhere beyond) is likely to be quicker via OOC, with the risk of exacerbating the trend of GWR services being much fuller east of Reading than west.

Will there be revenue gates between the long distance GWR platforms & the Elizabeth line platform?
Maybe they share an island platform in the up direction.

They won't. The GWR platforms will have one island for each track, and the Down Relief is in between so there wouldn't be cross-platform interchange even if there was only one platform face per GWR track.

One benefit of OOC stops not yet mentioned (I think) is better connections between GWR stations and Heathrow, now it looks like we aren't getting a western link from Reading.

 

[stuu]

From 125mph to a stop (with standard GWR driving will take about 3 minutes on its own. Then add in a few minutes for passengers on and off, then half a minute to accelerate to 50mph, so I'd say about 7 in total.

From 100mph, one would hope, at OOC

 

[MarkyT]

Paddington has by far the smallest number of passengers leaving by foot (11%) of all London termini. The next lowest is Marylebone at 19%

Interesting statistic. Although I’m surprised about Marylebone considering its only Underground connection is with the Bakerloo Line and Baker Street is only a short walk away.

I wonder whether the 'walking'/'not walking' figures cater for those who exit the station on foot but walk over to another nearby tube station. E.g. Baker St or Edgware Rd in the case of Marylebone, Lancaster Gate for Paddington. What about those who walk round the corner to get a bus, or a taxi not from the station rank?

Personally, I think additional intercity peripheral calls like OOC, in a capital larger than many small nations, are an unalloyed good, increasing and improving many connectional opportunities, offering alternative routes for some, and relieving congestion at the traditional termini. In the case of North West - Heathrow & western Thames Valley journeys, not only do HS2 & OOC give considerable journey time advantages on the main leg, but could also save 30m+ on the inter-terminus transfer.

 

[Bald Rick]

Paddington has Hyde Park and a couple of rather large new office blocks being built just outside. These are definitely places people will walk to.

But not many! How many people arriving at Paddington are heading straight to Hyde Park? If it’s more than 0.1% of them, I’d be amazed.

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From 125mph to a stop (with standard GWR driving will take about 3 minutes on its own. Then add in a few minutes for passengers on and off, then half a minute to accelerate to 50mph, so I'd say about 7 in total.

Im sorry, but you don’t know what you are talking about.

A GWR stop at Slough (125mph linespeed) costs 3-4 minutes, and that includes 90seconds dwell time.

 

[HSTEd]

Im sorry, but you don’t know what you are talking about.

A GWR stop at Slough (125mph linespeed) costs 3-4 minutes, and that includes 90seconds dwell time.

I often think that people don't fully grasp the performance modern multiple unit trains are capable of.

We are certainly not in the loco hauled era any longer.

 

[cle]

On HS1 you can travel Stratford to St Pancras. By far the busiest section is Stratford to Ebbsfleet, I dont see why OOC to Euston would be any different. A huge number are going to get off at OOC for a direct Elizabth Line train to their destination.

But on a Eurostar train? That's the equivalent here, we don't have a 'javelin' type service with no reservations or any standing. Nothing after OOC until Birmingham. Maybe if they inserted a few cattle cars lol - but seriously.

From 125mph to a stop (with standard GWR driving will take about 3 minutes on its own. Then add in a few minutes for passengers on and off, then half a minute to accelerate to 50mph, so I'd say about 7 in total.

And it's not as if the penalty into Paddington is high, as trains have to slow down through Ladbroke Grove as we all know, and then you're there. I can't see it making a material difference.

I'm sorry but the GWML users will have to suck it up, and then eventually, they'll embrace it too. Live/work in Paddington? Get a great seat outbound. Live/work anywhere else - much quicker access than ever before.

Can you imagine Tokyo's high speed ridership and the chaos it would bring now, without Shinagawa and Ueno? Or the SE network without Waterloo East and London Bridge?! We are a huge, polycentric metropolis like that, and people need dispersal, not concentration.

 

[CW2]

On the WCML, Milton Keynes is a useful comparator, being a station approached at full speed in the middle of a 125mph section.

A non-stop Pendo takes 7 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass).
A stopping Pendo takes 10.5 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass), inclusive of a 2 minute dwell at MKC.
So the time penalty for a stop in the middle of a 125mph section is 1.5 minutes in braking / acceleration plus 2 minutes dwell, total 3.5 minutes.
In the case of Old Oak Common the linespeed from there to Paddington would in any case be well below 125 mph, so the loss of time might (theoretically) be reduced further.
In practice, route congestion on the approach to Paddington might negate that benefit.

Yes, everything must stop at OOC. It is madness to pretend otherwise.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Plymouth has a direct train to Manchester today (1153).

Some of us welcome the idea of a stop at OOC, quicker journeys are more welcome than slow tedious ones, high frequency services with decent interchanges is the way to go

Horses for courses. I think commuters will generally go for speed. A leisure traveller might prefer to pay less for a simpler journey. Mind you in my commuting days I did tend towards routes that meant less changes as less changes meant less risk. Now if commuting includes doing some work then a table seat with no need to pack up the laptop and change trains would be attractive.

 

[paul1609]

But on a Eurostar train? That's the equivalent here, we don't have a 'javelin' type service with no reservations or any standing. Nothing after OOC until Birmingham. Maybe if they inserted a few cattle cars lol - but seriously.

Eurostar don't and have never stopped at Stratford and with respect there's not much difference these days between Southeastern High Speed and Great Western they are both long distance commuter lines. Standing on Paddington to Reading in the peaks is probably more prevalent than on HS1. St Pancras to Stanford isn't the busiest part of HS1 (except when West Ham are at home) nor will OOC to Euston be.Theres no reason why it can't be used for short distance journeys.

 

[cle]

Eurostar don't and have never stopped at Stratford and with respect there's not much difference these days between Southeastern High Speed and Great Western they are both long distance commuter lines. Standing on Paddington to Reading in the peaks is probably more prevalent than on HS1. St Pancras to Stanford isn't the busiest part of HS1 (except when West Ham are at home) nor will OOC to Euston be.Theres no reason why it can't be used for short distance journeys.

But you're talking HS2 trains - which is more akin to Eurostar in operation. i.e. Airline style. Yes they don't stop in Stratford but the point is more the mode than the service. In any case, moot. Where do these people go? Is standing allowed on HS2? Should someone who gets on at Euston occupy a seat, vs someone heading to Glasgow? Won't happen.

People will be able to take GWML between OOC and Paddington (probably, although might be Pu/Sd on the IETs)

 

[HSTEd]

But you're talking HS2 trains - which is more akin to Eurostar in operation. i.e. Airline style. Yes they don't stop in Stratford but the point is more the mode than the service. In any case, moot. Where do these people go? Is standing allowed on HS2? Should someone who gets on at Euston occupy a seat, vs someone heading to Glasgow? Won't happen.

One would hope that, given the amount of money they have blown, that HS2 would not have been so foolish as to have penny pinched on escape infrastructure to the point that they have to prevent standing.

But then given how badly the rest of the scheme has been going I would not be surprised.

If nothing else, a prohibition on standing would render service recovery almost impossible after disruption.

 

[cle]

One would hope that, given the amount of money they have blown, that HS2 would not have been so foolish as to have penny pinched on escape infrastructure to the point that they have to prevent standing.

But then given how badly the rest of the scheme has been going I would not be surprised.

If nothing else, a prohibition on standing would render service recovery almost impossible after disruption.

Maybe it's not a prohibition, for the exceptional reason you give - but that in regular service, maybe they won't sell tickets beyond when a train is full, and have assigned seating/reservations only.

 

[stuu]

Horses for courses. I think commuters will generally go for speed. A leisure traveller might prefer to pay less for a simpler journey. Mind you in my commuting days I did tend towards routes that meant less changes as less changes meant less risk. Now if commuting includes doing some work then a table seat with no need to pack up the laptop and change trains would be attractive.

Which is fair enough... my issue is with people who post as if they speak on behalf of every single travelling passenger, as if there is only one opinion. Which of course there isn't, but that seems to be prevalent in a lot of Internet discussions

 

[irish_rail]

From 100mph, one would hope, at OOC

Depends where drivers start braking, id hazard a guess we will be braking before the 100mph commencement board near Acton , although without knowing exactly where the OOC platforms will be its hard to be sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==

But not many! How many people arriving at Paddington are heading straight to Hyde Park? If it’s more than 0.1% of them, I’d be amazed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==



Im sorry, but you don’t know what you are talking about.

A GWR stop at Slough (125mph linespeed) costs 3-4 minutes, and that includes 90seconds dwell time.

3 to 4 minutes? In practice most of the time it takes far longer due to differing driving styles and drivers being encouraged to drive increasingly defensively. And unlike you I do actually drive and stop trains from 125mph so don't patronise me thankyou very much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==

On the WCML, Milton Keynes is a useful comparator, being a station approached at full speed in the middle of a 125mph section.

A non-stop Pendo takes 7 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass).
A stopping Pendo takes 10.5 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass), inclusive of a 2 minute dwell at MKC.
So the time penalty for a stop in the middle of a 125mph section is 1.5 minutes in braking / acceleration plus 2 minutes dwell, total 3.5 minutes.
In the case of Old Oak Common the linespeed from there to Paddington would in any case be well below 125 mph, so the loss of time might (theoretically) be reduced further.
In practice, route congestion on the approach to Paddington might negate that benefit.

Yes, everything must stop at OOC. It is madness to pretend otherwise.

I can't talk for the WCML but that seems incredibly tight. Another factor to consider is ATP, the minute there is anything other than green signals and no speed restrictions it forces the driver to brake very very hard . And with the 50mph PSR at Ladbroke Grove, ATP will simply not allow anything but the slowest approach to OOC. The WCML is not a great comparison.

 

[Merle Haggard]

On the WCML, Milton Keynes is a useful comparator, being a station approached at full speed in the middle of a 125mph section.

A non-stop Pendo takes 7 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass).
A stopping Pendo takes 10.5 minutes Bletchley (pass) to Roade (pass), inclusive of a 2 minute dwell at MKC.
So the time penalty for a stop in the middle of a 125mph section is 1.5 minutes in braking / acceleration plus 2 minutes dwell, total 3.5 minutes.
In the case of Old Oak Common the linespeed from there to Paddington would in any case be well below 125 mph, so the loss of time might (theoretically) be reduced further.
In practice, route congestion on the approach to Paddington might negate that benefit.

Yes, everything must stop at OOC. It is madness to pretend otherw

The Southern end of the WCML isn't as fast as you think.

Bletchley is 48mi 54ch, Roade 59mi 60ch equals 11mi 6ch (=11.075) A Pendo at 125 would take just under 5 and a half minutes, not 7, to cover that distance...

The clue is the difference in running times (or lack thereof) between the Lnw 110 mph trains and the Avanti 125 ones

 

[Bald Rick]

3 to 4 minutes? In practice most of the time it takes far longer due to differing driving styles and drivers being encouraged to drive increasingly defensively. And unlike you I do actually drive and stop trains from 125mph so don't patronise me thankyou very much.

I‘m sorry, but you’re wrong. Just look at the timetables and running times.

This train…

Realtime Trains | 1P40 1758 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington | 01/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1P40 1758 departure from Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington on 01/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

… has just done Reading to Paddington in 27 minutes, including a Slough stop. That compares to a 23/24 minute time for non stop trains. The same happens all day, every day. Unless you are saying that all the timetables are wrong, and all the reporting is wrong?

 

[irish_rail]

I‘m sorry, but you’re wrong. Just look at the timetables and running times.

This train…

Realtime Trains | 1P40 1758 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington | 01/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1P40 1758 departure from Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington on 01/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

… has just done Reading to Paddington in 27 minutes, including a Slough stop. That compares to a 23/24 minute time for non stop trains. The same happens all day, every day. Unless you are saying that all the timetables are wrong, and all the reporting is wrong?

If you look at that same train over a week you'll find different results each time. And Slough isn't a great comparison because those cotswold trains stopping there are doing so on greens and with no PSRs in the vicinity so ATP isnt involved either.
Plus I doubt passenger footfall at Slough at 8 o clock on a Thursday night is low and not comparable with OOC in terms of luggage etc etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you look at that same train over a week you'll find different results each time. And Slough isn't a great comparison because those cotswold trains stopping there are doing so on greens and with no PSRs in the vicinity so ATP isnt involved either.

You’re right Slough isn’t a great comparison, because it’s 125mph. At OOC it isn’t, and as you must know trains there are either accelerating or braking from/for Paddington. I‘m expecting a 3 minute time loss for OOC stops. Maybe 4.

Source: the bloke responsible for the on network works at OOC.

 

[The Planner]

Didcot is also 4 minutes vs non stop with a 1½ dwell.

 

[irish_rail]

.......

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You’re right Slough isn’t a great comparison, because it’s 125mph. At OOC it isn’t, and as you must know trains there are either accelerating or braking from/for Paddington. I‘m expecting a 3 minute time loss for OOC stops. Maybe 4.

Source: the bloke responsible for the on network works at OOC.

Well it is 125mph on the up as drivers will potentially need to start braking in the 125 bit between Ealing and Acton.

 

[Bald Rick]

.......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==


Well it is 125mph on the up as drivers will potentially need to start braking in the 125 bit between Ealing and Acton.

You neatly prove my point, as they are braking well before OOC.

And accelerating away from OOC, the linespeed on the up isn’t 125.

 

[coppercapped]

OOC will have better onward transport connections to the rest of London than Paddington

Interesting statistic. Although I’m surprised about Marylebone considering its only Underground connection is with the Bakerloo Line and Baker Street is only a short walk away.

However the statistic is now 11 years out of date. It comes from the TfL document "Central London Rail Termini:
Analysing passengers' onward travel patterns" dated September 2011.

In the meantime a great deal of office, retail and housing has been developed next door to Paddington around the canal basin, essentially south of the Westway from Westbourne Bridge to Edgware Road.

A more up-to-date count would be illuminating.

 

[stuu]

However the statistic is now 11 years out of date. It comes from the TfL document "Central London Rail Termini:
Analysing passengers' onward travel patterns" dated September 2011.

In the meantime a great deal of office, retail and housing has been developed next door to Paddington around the canal basin, essentially south of the Westway from Westbourne Bridge to Edgware Road.

A more up-to-date count would be illuminating.

Most of the Paddington Basin development is pre-2010, as Google Streetview will confirm. Or indeed viewing The Bourne Ultimatum. New builds have been mostly housing, which won't have generated very much traffic for the main line station.

But you are right, some more up to date figures would be better, although hard to see it having changed radically