Will all trains on the GWML need to stop at Old Oak Common?

[Metro95]

Once it is open, will all trains on the GWML need to stop at Old Oak Common?

 

[swt_passenger]

Once it is open, will all trains on the GWML need to stop at Old Oak Common?

Yes. It’s been explicitly stated that will happen in a number of route strategy type publications written by NR.

 

[HSTEd]

The benefits of OOC will be rather diluted if they don't stop everything. So I expect everything, or virtually everything, will.

 

[Bevan Price]

The benefits of OOC will be rather diluted if they don't stop everything. So I expect everything, or virtually everything, will.

So - all GWR journey times increased by how much? 5 minutes?
And probably more overcrowding?

And for what purpose ? Passengers from say, Birmingham to/from Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, etc. are hardly likely to want to use HS2 and change at OOC when they already have through services.

 

[HSTEd]

So - all GWR journey times increased by how much? 5 minutes?

To Paddington yes, but in many cases the loss will be significantly smaller since people will connect to Crossrail at OOC rather than Paddington.

And probably more overcrowding?


And for what purpose ? Passengers from say, Birmingham to/from Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, etc. are hardly likely to want to use HS2 and change at OOC when they already have through services.

If noone will want to use it, why would there be increased overcrowding?

The reality is, Cardiff to places like Birmingham etc, will be cheaper for the government via Old Oak COmmon, and thus the government will have a vested interest in ensuring people use those routes in preference to the classic ones.

Cardiff to Manchester takes ~3hr30 right now, you can be in Old Oak Common in under 2 hours, then after Phase 2 to manchester you will be in Manchester in 70 minutes. Depending on your specific connections it may even be marginally faster, and the concentration of traffic onto fewer, longer trains with lower staffing requirements will save substantial sums of money.

From the South West the potential savings will be dramatic, Plymouth to London will be ~3hr to OOC, so Plymouth Manchester in 4hr10-4hr30 (depending on connections). The current journey is well over 5 hours, and requires connections at Birmingham etc.

Given the mess that Birmingham New STreet is these days, getting as much traffic as possible out of there is a serious benefit for the railway as a whole.

EDIT:

If NPR to Marsden actually happens, you will also be able to pull essentially all the existing NE-SW traffic onto OOC trains.
The WLL also potentially relieves Central London transfer traffic by allowing easier access to Clapham Junction.

 

[306024]

Look at Stratford 30 years ago to what it is now. Hardly any main line trains called. Yes there was the Olympic catalyst, but the area around Old Oak will doubtless change out of all recognition too.

 

[Snow1964]

So - all GWR journey times increased by how much? 5 minutes?

Yes to Paddington, but Paddington area is not much or a destination anyway. But some trains might drop a different stop instead eg Swindon, or Didcot, or Reading, so time to Paddington is roughly neutral for further stations. But too early to tell.

Of course will be able to change to an Elizabeth line train to central London, or a train to Heathrow etc. And presumably a non stop train to Euston (unless they become set down only at Old Oak).

I forsee, lot more people using it for alighting, preferring instead to join a long distance train at the terminus, where they can get comfortable before departure

 

[cle]

I don't think anyone will be able (legally) to do OOC-Euston hops.

I just hope that both WLL and NLL solutions are found - those orbital routes (and bringing new things to skeptical GWML passengers crucially) are critical for OOC becoming something like Stratford. And for the broader dispersal of folks from the West, Wales and HS2 across London.

An important note is the connection between Clapham Junction and OOC via the WLL - which brings a huge amount of South London / Southern England to OOC and better Heathrow, GWML and HS2 links much easier than they are getting to Euston and Paddington today (unless they live in Brixton etc) - it really could be pivotal.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I don't think anyone will be able (legally) to do OOC-Euston hops.

I hope they will, it’ll make getting from the GWML to Kings Cross/St Pancras a lot easier.

 

[JonathanH]

I hope they will, it’ll make getting from the GWML to Kings Cross/St Pancras a lot easier.

It just isn't going to happen. Having passengers on board for a journey that short doesn't work with ensuring long distance capacity is maintained.

 

[Bevan Price]

To Paddington yes, but in many cases the loss will be significantly smaller since people will connect to Crossrail at OOC rather than Paddington.


If noone will want to use it, why would there be increased overcrowding?

The reality is, Cardiff to places like Birmingham etc, will be cheaper for the government via Old Oak COmmon, and thus the government will have a vested interest in ensuring people use those routes in preference to the classic ones.

Cardiff to Manchester takes ~3hr30 right now, you can be in Old Oak Common in under 2 hours, then after Phase 2 to manchester you will be in Manchester in 70 minutes. Depending on your specific connections it may even be marginally faster, and the concentration of traffic onto fewer, longer trains with lower staffing requirements will save substantial sums of money.

From the South West the potential savings will be dramatic, Plymouth to London will be ~3hr to OOC, so Plymouth Manchester in 4hr10-4hr30 (depending on connections). The current journey is well over 5 hours, and requires connections at Birmingham etc.

Given the mess that Birmingham New STreet is these days, getting as much traffic as possible out of there is a serious benefit for the railway as a whole.

EDIT:

If NPR to Marsden actually happens, you will also be able to pull essentially all the existing NE-SW traffic onto OOC trains.
The WLL also potentially relieves Central London transfer traffic by allowing easier access to Clapham Junction.

That ignores the known facts that a lot of passengers prefer a through train, albeit slower, rather than the inconvenience of changing trains and waiting for (possibly unreliable) connections. Speed is not the only consideration when people decide how and when to travel. And any attempt to drastically reduce (or make worse) existing services over classic lines would be politically unacceptable.

 

[dciuk]

It just isn't going to happen. Having passengers on board for a journey that short doesn't work with ensuring long distance capacity is maintained.

Would they not just be using the capacity that is not being used by those passengers joining/leaving at OOH to/from the Midlands/North?

 

[HSTEd]

That ignores the known facts that a lot of passengers prefer a through train, albeit slower, rather than the inconvenience of changing trains and waiting for (possibly unreliable) connections. Speed is not the only consideration when people decide how and when to travel.

The most important criterion, I would argue, is ticket price.

And the state will still be better off if prices via HS2 are lower given the drastically lower cost base.

And any attempt to drastically reduce (or make worse) existing services over classic lines would be politically unacceptable.

Empirical data from the current railway indicates that this is probably not true!

 

[dciuk]

To Paddington yes, but in many cases the loss will be significantly smaller since people will connect to Crossrail at OOC rather than Paddington.


If noone will want to use it, why would there be increased overcrowding?

The reality is, Cardiff to places like Birmingham etc, will be cheaper for the government via Old Oak COmmon, and thus the government will have a vested interest in ensuring people use those routes in preference to the classic ones.

Cardiff to Manchester takes ~3hr30 right now, you can be in Old Oak Common in under 2 hours, then after Phase 2 to manchester you will be in Manchester in 70 minutes. Depending on your specific connections it may even be marginally faster, and the concentration of traffic onto fewer, longer trains with lower staffing requirements will save substantial sums of money.

From the South West the potential savings will be dramatic, Plymouth to London will be ~3hr to OOC, so Plymouth Manchester in 4hr10-4hr30 (depending on connections). The current journey is well over 5 hours, and requires connections at Birmingham etc.

Given the mess that Birmingham New STreet is these days, getting as much traffic as possible out of there is a serious benefit for the railway as a whole.

EDIT:

If NPR to Marsden actually happens, you will also be able to pull essentially all the existing NE-SW traffic onto OOC trains.
The WLL also potentially relieves Central London transfer traffic by allowing easier access to Clapham Junction.

If more passengers are expected to travel via OOC instead of using existing Cross Country services does that mean longer trains will be required on the GWR long distance services?

 

[Kilopylae]

So - all GWR journey times increased by how much? 5 minutes?

Journey times to central London will be reduced compared with before 2019, I suspect, which means that commuters and London leisure travellers don't miss out. The only real losers are cross-London long distance passengers, and to be honest, when you're travelling from (say) Exeter, five more minutes means nothing.

Look at Stratford 30 years ago to what it is now. Hardly any main line trains called. Yes there was the Olympic catalyst, but the area around Old Oak will doubtless change out of all recognition too.

Stratford is different gravy. It's much closer to the centre, and the development is the kind of big concrete chain stuff that always gets built when the economy is perceived to be booming. Plus, there's a lot of student accommodation there.

 

[306024]

Stratford is different gravy. It's much closer to the centre, and the development is the kind of big concrete chain stuff that always gets built when the economy is perceived to be booming. Plus, there's a lot of student accommodation there.

Different liquor if you know yer pie ‘n’ mash.

Yes it is currently, but who knows what the longer term effect of Old Oak HS2 station will be.

 

[irish_rail]

That ignores the known facts that a lot of passengers prefer a through train, albeit slower, rather than the inconvenience of changing trains and waiting for (possibly unreliable) connections. Speed is not the only consideration when people decide how and when to travel. And any attempt to drastically reduce (or make worse) existing services over classic lines would be politically unacceptable.

This. Instead of forcing trains from Cornwall to London to stop at OOC , how about give the south west some direct XC trains to the north west instead. Direct trains to places like a liverpool or Manchester (even if 30 mins slower than HS2 changing at OOC) would be more welcome than devaluing the GW line out of Paddington.

 

[HSTEd]

This. Instead of forcing trains from Cornwall to London to stop at OOC , how about give the south west some direct XC trains to the north west instead. Direct trains to places like a liverpool or Manchester (even if 30 mins slower than HS2 changing at OOC) would be more welcome than devaluing the GW line out of Paddington.

Who will pay for these trains?

They will cost far more to operate.
Many of the current problems on the railway are a result of trying to operate trains from everywhere to everywhere.

 

[Kilopylae]

devaluing the GW line out of Paddington.

When travelling from Devon and Cornwall five minutes makes no difference to anything.

Many of the current problems on the railway are a result of trying to operate trains from everywhere to everywhere.

To be fair, Bristol to Manchester is a long-standing route which doesn't often go badly wrong nowadays.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That ignores the known facts that a lot of passengers prefer a through train, albeit slower, rather than the inconvenience of changing trains and waiting for (possibly unreliable) connections. Speed is not the only consideration when people decide how and when to travel. And any attempt to drastically reduce (or make worse) existing services over classic lines would be politically unacceptable.

I suspect that very few passengers from the West have Paddington as their final destination. The connection at Old Oak Common to Crossrail is going to be similar or better than that at Paddington I would think. Paddington is rather badly sited in relation to the centre of London compared to other termini so many will be using the Crossrail anyway at Paddington.

 

[alf]

Will there be revenue gates between the long distance GWR platforms & the Elizabeth line platform?
Maybe they share an island platform in the up direction.

 

[cle]

Journey times to central London will be reduced compared with before 2019, I suspect, which means that commuters and London leisure travellers don't miss out. The only real losers are cross-London long distance passengers, and to be honest, when you're travelling from (say) Exeter, five more minutes means nothing.


Stratford is different gravy. It's much closer to the centre, and the development is the kind of big concrete chain stuff that always gets built when the economy is perceived to be booming. Plus, there's a lot of student accommodation there.

Interestingly, there is a ton of Imperial student accommodation around North Acton / Gypsy Corner which is really the beginnings of the OOC cluster - presumably folks based down at the ex-BBC Worldwide campus.

And it would have that same big f- off mall if Westfield hadn't done it a mile away, at Shepherds Bush (per Stratford). But it being the UK, I'd expect endless retail of another sort. Maybe a fancier mini-mall, like at Battersea or Coal Drops - maybe something more functional given it's a rail hub, like at St Pancras undercroft. But there will be a ton of home-building around there - likely offices too - so I anticipate that.

Probably a good amount 'airside' too - given the many folks changing trains there. And some might arrive not by rail - i.e. many who live in West London who might take a cab or bus. Or bike. Before a train to Manchester, for instance - vs heading into Euston. They'll have a concourse to navigate (vs changers who will probably just be up and down islands' stairs between lines)

OOC isn't actually that far from the centre - it's just a wasteland of sorts. But it'll be 10 mins into Bond St.

 

[Bald Rick]

And for what purpose ? Passengers from say, Birmingham to/from Reading, Bristol, Cardiff,

Bristol and Cardiff maybe, but in 10 years time when you tap into a journey planner “Birmigham to Reading” and it gives you an option that takes 1h10 minutes or one that takes 1h40, and the 1h10 option is cheaper, which will you take?

 

[306024]

OOC isn't actually that far from the centre - it's just a wasteland of sorts. But it'll be 10 mins into Bond St.

Or HMP Wormwood Scrubs. Handy for visiting.

 

[Bevan Price]

Bristol and Cardiff maybe, but in 10 years time when you tap into a journey planner “Birmigham to Reading” and it gives you an option that takes 1h10 minutes or one that takes 1h40, and the 1h10 option is cheaper, which will you take?

An interesting question. Less active people will still probably prefer the through train.
And will HS2 really bring cheaper fares ? That has yet to be proved.

 

[stuu]

This. Instead of forcing trains from Cornwall to London to stop at OOC , how about give the south west some direct XC trains to the north west instead. Direct trains to places like a liverpool or Manchester (even if 30 mins slower than HS2 changing at OOC) would be more welcome than devaluing the GW line out of Paddington.

Plymouth has a direct train to Manchester today (1153).

Some of us welcome the idea of a stop at OOC, quicker journeys are more welcome than slow tedious ones, high frequency services with decent interchanges is the way to go

 

[irish_rail]

Plymouth has a direct train to Manchester today (1153).

Some of us welcome the idea of a stop at OOC, quicker journeys are more welcome than slow tedious ones, high frequency services with decent interchanges is the way to go

Not always. Look at how Birmingham New Street acts as a disincentive to travel due to the inability to get quickly between platforms. I suspect OOC will be similar, all about the retail offering and preventing ticket less travel at the expense of a seemless journey experience.

Also, if such numbers are going to be using this station , id argue it will slow down GWR services by more than 5 minutes, with probably at least 4 or 5 minutes just to facilitate boarding on rolling stock with small end doors and people with large amounts of luggage. Add in the inevitable slow approach that is forced on GWR drivers, id say it'll be nearer 10 minutes slower to Paddington.

 

[stuu]

Also, if such numbers are going to be using this station , id argue it will slow down GWR services by more than 5 minutes, with probably at least 4 or 5 minutes just to facilitate boarding on rolling stock with small end doors and people with large amounts of luggage. Add in the inevitable slow approach that is forced on GWR drivers, id say it'll be nearer 10 minutes slower to Paddington.

Somewhat defeating your own argument there - if large numbers of passengers are going to be getting on and off, then surely the station is justified?

Very few people want to go to Paddington, I know this argument has been had before but there are no major destinations within walking distance, so giving people the opportunity to have an easier interchange to Crossrail is going to be very useful. Time will tell of course

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Paddington has Hyde Park and a couple of rather large new office blocks being built just outside. These are definitely places people will walk to.

 

[stuu]

Paddington has by far the smallest number of passengers leaving by foot (11%) of all London termini. The next lowest is Marylebone at 19%