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No further comment to add but 'Triggers Broom Project" is such a good way to describe the 458
I can just hear it: "It's had 1 new carriage and 2 new front ends" - "How can it be the same bloody train then?"
In all seriousness it looks fairly smart in the new livery and will hopefully look a bit better without those OCD-inducing mismatching windows on the 460 coaches. Looking forward to seeing what they do on the inside as well.
Quite a bizarre history really, seeing that the latest scheme is basically just reversing the previous scheme which converted them into 5 car 75mph urban stock!
Quite a bizarre history really, seeing that the latest scheme is basically just reversing the previous scheme which converted them into 5 car 75mph urban stock!
While replacing 100 MPH stock which ironically replaced their cousins on the Brighton Mainline. It's a somewhat bizarre relationship between the 442 and 458 / 460. I've never found the Junipers to be the best of the millennium build EMU fleets (or Alstom for that matter), but to me at least, carrying on with this project just seems utterly bizarre.
While replacing 100 MPH stock which ironically replaced their cousins on the Brighton Mainline. It's a somewhat bizarre relationship between the 442 and 458 / 460. I've never found the Junipers to be the best of the millennium build EMU fleets (or Alstom for that matter), but to me at least, carrying on with this project just seems utterly bizarre.
You have to wonder as well what's going to happen once 701s do finally enter service and the number of units is far greater than those needed to run the post pandemic timetable. Do they all just sit around in the sidings, or go elsewher? In hindsight, at least in my view, it would have made far more sense for the 458s to go for scrap (assuming no-one else wants them) and for the excess 701 stock to be used on Basingstoke/Alton services, freeing up more Desiros for the rest of the mainline.
Then we come back full circle with the argument that PDL passengers do not want 450s in the first place, hence why 442s and now 458s were brought in for the 2+2 seats & intercity layout. Freeing up more Desiros would be ideal but SWR would not entertain the idea of fitting a small pool of 450s with 2+2 seats or convert the 350/2s into extra 450s with 2+2 specially for the PDL.
There are not enough 444s for both PDL and SWML services, I reckon the next SW contract may require additional intercity stock to run with the 444s, in a similiar way to 730s ordered for LNR to run alongside the 350s.
Now that there is a reduced service on the PDL which doesn’t look likely to go back to 4tph to Portsmouth via Guildford as was the plan pre-COVID (2tph fast 442, 2tph stopping Desiro), will 458s be booked to cover all fast and stopping via Haslemeres, or just the fasts?
Now that there is a reduced service on the PDL which doesn’t look likely to go back to 4tph to Portsmouth via Guildford as was the plan pre-COVID (2tph fast 442, 2tph stopping Desiro), will 458s be booked to cover all fast and stopping via Haslemeres, or just the fasts?
I still think it’ll be amazing if the demand comes back to re-introduce the cl458s.
Bringing them in on the same timetable to just replace 450s is going to bring a lot of crew training with cost that the industry doesn’t seem to want to spend currently. From the Dec 22 timetable update it doesn’t look as if SWR is planning for growth.
I still think it’ll be amazing if the demand comes back to re-introduce the cl458s.
Bringing them in on the same timetable to just replace 450s is going to bring a lot of crew training with cost that the industry doesn’t seem to want to spend currently.
One thing is clear, SWR are going to have much more rolling stock than they actually require going forwards. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some more government intervention.
SWR have withdrawn all 24 456s, many of which were used in pairs to form half of 8 carriage services with a single 455 by the end of their run (10 car was ditched a while ago now), they have sent about five or so 455s to scrap, many other 455s require regular work at Bournemouth and elsewhere to keep them going, 458534 is off lease - I heard another ex 460 one was too but I cannot confirm with many other 458s long term out of use, and then there's the eighteen 707s which have disappeared also
You have to wonder as well what's going to happen once 701s do finally enter service and the number of units is far greater than those needed to run the post pandemic timetable. Do they all just sit around in the sidings, or go elsewher? In hindsight, at least in my view, it would have made far more sense for the 458s to go for scrap (assuming no-one else wants them) and for the excess 701 stock to be used on Basingstoke/Alton services, freeing up more Desiros for the rest of the mainline.
Quite a bizarre history really, seeing that the latest scheme is basically just reversing the previous scheme which converted them into 5 car 75mph urban stock!
Not quite, we aren't having those death trap, Arkwright's till, gangways put back back. Plus 458/0 were 90mph max 100mph gearing, the project releases them as 100/100.
Not to mention the 25 or so minutes (IIRC) just to deploy one! Similar to the reason the jumper cable covers on 442s were binned. Seem to recall at least one very nasty fitter related incident on one of those at Bomo West....
You have to wonder as well what's going to happen once 701s do finally enter service and the number of units is far greater than those needed to run the post pandemic timetable. Do they all just sit around in the sidings, or go elsewher? In hindsight, at least in my view, it would have made far more sense for the 458s to go for scrap (assuming no-one else wants them) and for the excess 701 stock to be used on Basingstoke/Alton services, freeing up more Desiros for the rest of the mainline.
Aren't 701s standard only? Do they have toilets? That would be rather like sending 455s or EPBs down to Basingstoke back in the day. I'd certainly keep the 458s, they're not so old and the railway, frankly, needs all the stock it can get right now, at times of stock shortage.
Also, better to have more stock than not enough. Means the railway can recover when the demand picks up again.
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I still think it’ll be amazing if the demand comes back to re-introduce the cl458s.
Bringing them in on the same timetable to just replace 450s is going to bring a lot of crew training with cost that the industry doesn’t seem to want to spend currently. From the Dec 22 timetable update it doesn’t look as if SWR is planning for growth.
Maybe not in the short term, but I'd hope the railway is not going to enter a vicious-circle of long-term decline (with poor levels of service discouraging passengers from coming back) from which it will not recover until 20+ years time. The current economic crisis will presumably not go on forever, one might hope the 2nd half of this decade may see growth.
Thus it's better to have too much stock than too little. Just makes everything more resilient a) should the demand come back and b) during seasonal peaks, such as the summer.
More resilient yes but at a cost which is unaffordable at present.
This is no different to NSE struggling for money when the recession hit. For example the end of the South Western Division HAPs in the early 1990 recession when they knew getting rid of them and reducing some trains from 10 cars to 8 cars would be a problem in the future once demand returned but again like now they had to go to meet the budget.
More resilient yes but at a cost which is unaffordable at present.
This is no different to NSE struggling for money when the recession hit. For example the end of the South Western Division HAPs in the early 1990 recession when they knew getting rid of them and reducing some trains from 10 cars to 8 cars would be a problem in the future once demand returned but again like now they had to go to meet the budget.
I do indeed remember the HAP problem (the September 1991 timetable was the precise date, I remember a series of depressing announcements about shortened trains while at Waterloo a few days before the timetable change) but to be fair they were quite old by then, older than the 458s are now.
(Not coincidentally, I lost interest in the railway for a few years from then, my interest coming back in the better days of the mid-to-late 90s).
Maybe not in the short term, but I'd hope the railway is not going to enter a vicious-circle of long-term decline (with poor levels of service discouraging passengers from coming back) from which it will not recover until 20+ years time. The current economic crisis will presumably not go on forever, one might hope the 2nd half of this decade may see growth.
It has and your dealing with mandarins who are obsessed with short termism and scrapping stock saves money although i suspect it will come back to bite us later this decade and the forum will full of why didn't they just warm store this and that unit.
Thus it's better to have too much stock than too little. Just makes everything more resilient a) should the demand come back and b) during seasonal peaks, such as the summer.
Aren't 701s standard only? Do they have toilets? That would be rather like sending 455s or EPBs down to Basingstoke back in the day. I'd certainly keep the 458s, they're not so old and the railway, frankly, needs all the stock it can get right now, at times of stock shortage.
I believe they will be standard only, but yes they will have toilets. From a comparative point of view, neither Alton and Basingstoke are really any less of an outer suburban route than Reading is. I'll bet we'll see them going that way sometimes in any case subject to crew and traction knowledge if there's an issue with stock or during engineering work similar to how 707s get used sometimes on routes besides Shepperton at the moment.
I believe they will be standard only, but yes they will have toilets. From a comparative point of view, neither Alton and Basingstoke are really any less of an outer suburban route than Reading is. I'll bet we'll see them going that way sometimes in any case subject to crew and traction knowledge if there's an issue with stock or during engineering work similar to how 707s get used sometimes on routes besides Shepperton at the moment.
I believe they will be standard only, but yes they will have toilets. From a comparative point of view, neither Alton and Basingstoke are really any less of an outer suburban route than Reading is. I'll bet we'll see them going that way sometimes in any case subject to crew and traction knowledge if there's an issue with stock or during engineering work similar to how 707s get used sometimes on routes besides Shepperton at the moment.
As far as Alton is concerned, the operation there is very set up for 4,8 and 12 car units. Peak trains are heavily loaded, and whilst a triple 450 has 855 seats, a 701/0 only has 556 seats. I appreciate that this is not the only factor (especially considering the whole middle seat debate of the 2+3 450s), but 701 would simply be a capacity decrease - and not to mention they don't have first class, which must be quite lucrative for SWR services like these. Not saying it shouldn't be ruled out, but more something to be considered.
As far as Alton is concerned, the operation there is very set up for 4,8 and 12 car units. Peak trains are heavily loaded, and whilst a triple 450 has 855 seats, a 701/0 only has 556 seats. I appreciate that this is not the only factor (especially considering the whole middle seat debate of the 2+3 450s), but 701 would simply be a capacity decrease - and not to mention they don't have first class, which must be quite lucrative for SWR services like these. Not saying it shouldn't be ruled out, but more something to be considered.
The middle seat debate is not applicable to the Alton line. I’ve lived in Farnham for over ten years and peak trains are crammed. When a 12 car turns up in lieu of an 8, people are left behind at Aldershot. First class is always well patronised. That said, 458s do regularly deputise at weekends which don’t have first class.
A 10-701 would be an upgrade on the 8-450 and 5-444 diagrams though. The up 444s, while off peak, are usually full by Ash Vale.
The middle seat debate is not applicable to the Alton line. I’ve lived in Farnham for over ten years and peak trains are crammed. When a 12 car turns up in lieu of an 8, people are left behind at Aldershot. First class is always well patronised. That said, 458s do regularly deputise at weekends which don’t have first class.
A 10-701 would be an upgrade on the 8-450 and 5-444 diagrams though. The up 444s, while off peak, are usually full by Ash Vale.
Yes as you said the peaks do get incredibly busy. Pre-covid it was an almost daily occurrence for the train to be full and standing by Farnham, and they are still packed today. It would be an improvement for the shorter diagrams though I agree, just not a viable solution for the peaks.
If the 458s were to be scrapped or the project was to be abandoned, I can't see how putting 701s on other routes would fix the issues of 2+3 450s ending up on the PDL though (aside from freeing up a small number of 444 diagrams) unless a pool of 2+2 ones were to be made as has been said upthread - maybe a 377 style seating arrangement would work with 2+2 in the outer carriages. However bodged the 458s are, they (and the 442s that came before them) play a role that is needed at SWR in my view.
As far as Alton is concerned, the operation there is very set up for 4,8 and 12 car units. Peak trains are heavily loaded, and whilst a triple 450 has 855 seats, a 701/0 only has 556 seats. I appreciate that this is not the only factor (especially considering the whole middle seat debate of the 2+3 450s), but 701 would simply be a capacity decrease - and not to mention they don't have first class, which must be quite lucrative for SWR services like these. Not saying it shouldn't be ruled out, but more something to be considered.
There is a lot more standing room on a 701 I imagine though which might almost make up for the lower number of seats? (And of course more capacity both sitting and standing versus an 8-car 450 during the off peak).
There is a lot more standing room on a 701 I imagine though which might almost make up for the lower number of seats? (And of course more capacity both sitting and standing versus an 8-car 450 during the off peak).
Yes, there is more standing room, but there are 300 less seats! That would be the difference on most mornings between almost everybody getting a seat to more like 60% getting a seat - meaning the train would likely have run out of seats when leaving Farnham on a busy morning (with almost an hour to go until Waterloo). It is better than an 8-450 or a 444 though in this respect.
I believe they will be standard only, but yes they will have toilets. From a comparative point of view, neither Alton and Basingstoke are really any less of an outer suburban route than Reading is. I'll bet we'll see them going that way sometimes in any case subject to crew and traction knowledge if there's an issue with stock or during engineering work similar to how 707s get used sometimes on routes besides Shepperton at the moment.
True, though Reading also always traditionally had mainline stock. It was VEPs and CIGs in the 80s and most of the 90s, then 458s and later 450s. Indeed, from what I gather from this forum, in the 70s it was dominated by CIGs (usually focused on faster or longer-distance services) apparently due to the demands of well-heeled Sunningdale commuters or suchlike - so if the proposal for Reading is inner-suburban stock, that's quite a degradation! So I'd also say 701s probably shouldn't be used on Reading either, unless it's forced due to stock shortage.
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It has and your dealing with mandarins who are obsessed with short termism and scrapping stock saves money although i suspect it will come back to bite us later this decade and the forum will full of why didn't they just warm store this and that unit.
long time since the railway had surplus stock for seasonal peaks
True, though in recent times the Southern Region (or its successors) used commuter peak stock to run summer extras to places like Bournemouth, Ramsgate or Lymington (for IoW) on Summer Saturdays. What I was trying to say is, there may not be a strong commuter peak right now, but there is a strong summer peak - so even if they think they don't need stock for the commuter peak, it might be needed for other, seasonal, peaks so it may as well be kept.
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Yes of course. To clarify, I mean that it's the same sort of distance away as Reading is.
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There is a lot more standing room on a 701 I imagine though which might almost make up for the lower number of seats? (And of course more capacity both sitting and standing versus an 8-car 450 during the off peak).
But do you really want to stand on an inner-suburban unit from somewhere like Farnham? Better to run full-length services with mainline stock, as they always have done in modern times. (Interestingly, in 1967, most Farnham peak services were, according to the CWN, formed of CORs, vs HAPs or BILs off-peak - in those days they appeared to want to give commuters on this line the prime railway experience. This mindset of "express units for Farnham peak services" persisted into the early 80s when a couple of peak services were CIGs, vs VEPs off-peak).
So, I read on social media the other day a comment that alleges that an "internal email" states that due to significant corrosion being found on the first pair of units that went for conversion the project is being scrapped due to the cost of rectification. The 458s will go off-lease instead and 450s will remain permanently on Portsmouth fasts.
It might be complete wibble. On the other hand it might be true. Significant corrosion was found in the Class 460s which delayed the five car conversion project.
So, I read on social media the other day a comment that alleges that an "internal email" states that due to significant corrosion being found on the first pair of units that went for conversion the project is being scrapped due to the cost of rectification. The 458s will go off-lease instead and 450s will remain permanently on Portsmouth fasts.
It might be complete wibble. On the other hand it might be true. Significant corrosion was found in the Class 460s which delayed the five car conversion project.
Blimey, wouldn't entirely surprise me if thats true. I don't want to jump to conclusions though.
What is it with SWR trying to get new trains for the PDL? First the 442s, and now this.
I wonder what they will do with the rest of the 458s in the mean time. Just keep them where they are until the 701s?
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