SWR Class 458 to be retained

[amazon1675]

Could anyone explain who pays for what at present on 'the passenger railway'? Fares revenue goes straight to the government coffers,and SWR are operating under a contract with wafer thin profit margins. Who pays for this refurb ? Also what incentive have SWR got to grow custom as they won't see a penny of it ? Happy to be enlightened. In fact with the move to GBR stalled,who is giving approval for any spending ? Given announced service trimming during 2023,some big decisions must be likely soon? Some interesting comments about the disputes on the telly this morning.

 

[pompeyfan]

One thing is clear, SWR are going to have much more rolling stock than they actually require going forwards. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some more government intervention.

 

[JonathanH]

One thing is clear, SWR are going to have much more rolling stock than they actually require going forwards. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some more government intervention.

Surely it has all been signed off by government? It is crazy that the 458 programme has got to the point it has, without a plan for the surplus stock.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’d have to agree with previous posters that the price of voiding the contract is higher than any other solutions. Of course the simplest solution would be to divert any excess 701s to South Eastern but that gives them yet another micro fleet, or lay juice to Salisbury (I know I’m being ridiculous now, back on topic!)

 

[YSTrains]

So 28 units to be retained to become 458/4. Would that mean units 529-536 will be sent off for scrap? I believe one unit has already been withdrawn. Looks like all traces of the former class 460s will completely disappear.

 

[physics34]

So 28 units to be retained to become 458/4. Would that mean units 529-536 will be sent off for scrap? I believe one unit has already been withdrawn. Looks like all traces of the former class 460s will completely disappear.

Bung the rest of them back to gat ex. and put the 387/2 s on southern metro

 

[Elorith]

I’ve just seen reports that the first two 458s will be ready Q1 of 2023, and will then be bedded in with the whole program still expected to proceed and be in traffic within 1 year, this was on an all staff video bulletin.

Any idea what they're being replaced with in the imminent future?

 

[swt_passenger]

So 28 units to be retained to become 458/4. Would that mean units 529-536 will be sent off for scrap? I believe one unit has already been withdrawn. Looks like all traces of the former class 460s will completely disappear.

It’s been known they’re only converting 28 units for about 18 months now.

I don’t think anyone has ever seriously expected the ex 460 units to be retained?

 

[pompeyfan]

Any idea what they're being replaced with in the imminent future?

701s will eventually replace the 458 fleet on the suburban and Windsor side services. There was also talk about the 701s but I think the basic gist of it was they’re trying hard behind the scenes but there’s not been any substantial progress although they’re hoping to announce positive news “soon”

 

[Elorith]

701s will eventually replace the 458 fleet on the suburban and Windsor side services. There was also talk about the 701s but I think the basic gist of it was they’re trying hard behind the scenes but there’s not been any substantial progress although they’re hoping to announce positive news “soon”

Right yeah of course in the long term that's the goal. But I wonder what the plan will be in the short term if the 458s disappear down to Bournemouth? The only way I can see them being covered is to swap all the existing 458 disagrams with Desiros given the stock available at the moment. There was some rumour of the 707s returning from SouthEastern temporarily a short while ago, but whether there's any truth to that remains to be shown.

 

[WizCastro197]

Right yeah of course in the long term that's the goal. But I wonder what the plan will be in the short term if the 458s disappear down to Bournemouth? The only way I can see them being covered is to swap all the existing 458 disagrams with Desiros given the stock available at the moment. There was some rumour of the 707s returning from SouthEastern temporarily a short while ago, but whether there's any truth to that remains to be shown.

458s operating what at Bournemouth? Not Waterloo-Weymouths surely? Is this confirmed? I was under the impression that they will be Portsmouth duties?

I don’t think SWR have a stock shortage at the moment which seems to be what you’re implying? All they’ve withdrawn is 707s but not all of them?


But in terms of livery, I agree with @py_megapixel. The yellow should’ve just been extended the whole way down at the front.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

458s operating what at Bournemouth? Not Waterloo-Weymouths surely? Is this confirmed? I was under the impression that they will be Portsmouth duties?

I don’t think SWR have a stick shortage at the moment which seems to be what you’re implying? All they’ve withdrawn is 707s but not all of them?

Oh dear, OK here goes:

458s based at Bournemouth Depot working one or two morning Poole - Waterloo and evening return services to get them there, and on Portsmouths for the full day, stabling at Fratton or Clapham Jct where necessary. Such plans were the same for 442s.

SWR have withdrawn all 24 456s, many of which were used in pairs to form half of 8 carriage services with a single 455 by the end of their run (10 car was ditched a while ago now), they have sent about five or so 455s to scrap, many other 455s require regular work at Bournemouth and elsewhere to keep them going, 458534 is off lease - I heard another ex 460 one was too but I cannot confirm with many other 458s long term out of use, and then there's the eighteen 707s which have disappeared also.

-

Lots of references to "458/4"
Has anyone actually had it confirmed to them that they will be numbered 458401-428? 458/0 went to 458/5 to reflect that they had the 460 carriages in them. Now that they're being removed, surely they would just go back to being 458001-028, as they're back in original formation.

 

[WizCastro197]

Oh dear, OK here goes:

458s based at Bournemouth Depot working one or two morning Poole - Waterloo and evening return services to get them there, and on Portsmouths for the full day, stabling at Fratton or Clapham Jct where necessary. Such plans were the same for 442s.

SWR have withdrawn all 24 456s, many of which were used in pairs to form half of 8 carriage services with a single 455 by the end of their run (10 car was ditched a while ago now), they have sent about five or so 455s to scrap, many other 455s require regular work at Bournemouth and elsewhere to keep them going, 458534 is off lease - I heard another ex 460 one was too but I cannot confirm with many other 458s long term out of use, and then there's the eighteen 707s which have disappeared also.

-

Lots of references to "458/4"
Has anyone actually had it confirmed to them that they will be numbered 458401-428? 458/0 went to 458/5 to reflect that they had the 460 carriages in them. Now that they're being removed, surely they would just go back to being 458001-028, as they're back in original formation.

Sorry, Thanks

But surely it’s entirely speculative that 458s will replace 444s entirely on Waterloo-Weymouths as I felt @Elorith said?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry, Thanks

But surely it’s entirely speculative that 458s will replace 444s entirely on Waterloo-Weymouths as I felt @Elorith said?

That isn't what's been said at all; I might politely suggest re-reading some of the posts, as no mention of them running Weymouth services is in any of them.

 

[WizCastro197]

That isn't what's been said at all; I might politely suggest re-reading some of the posts, as no mention of them running Weymouth services is in any of them.

They said: ‘But I wonder what the plan will be in the short term if the 458s disappear down to Bournemouth? The only way I can see them being covered is to swap all the existing 458 disagrams with Desiros given the stock available at the moment’

Implying slightly that 444s should be replaced unless I’ve inferred this wrong? Perhaps 450s on Bournemouth-Winchester?

 

[D365]

What other 458s are OOU?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They said: ‘But I wonder what the plan will be in the short term if the 458s disappear down to Bournemouth? The only way I can see them being covered is to swap all the existing 458 disagrams with Desiros given the stock available at the moment’

Implying slightly that 444s should be replaced unless I’ve inferred this wrong? Perhaps 450s on Bournemouth-Winchester?

As I've just told you, the plan has always been for the 458s - and 442s beforehand - to be allocated to Bournemouth Depot.

Northam is a Siemens depot, and Wimbledon maintains the Metro fleet. Runs to get Junipers to and from Bournemouth should include (they did under 442s anyway) one or two early morning up and late evening down London Poole services.

"Existing 458 diagrams" refers to those on Metro that 701 are currently not in a position to take up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==

What other 458s are OOU?

None permanently, but several have been taking turns to receive work that's kept them out of service for lengthy periods of time. If these works have all been now completed (they hadn't earlier in 2022, certainly), then that's wonderful, I'm sure.

 

[Domh245]

They said: ‘But I wonder what the plan will be in the short term if the 458s disappear down to Bournemouth? The only way I can see them being covered is to swap all the existing 458 disagrams with Desiros given the stock available at the moment’

Implying slightly that 444s should be replaced unless I’ve inferred this wrong? Perhaps 450s on Bournemouth-Winchester?

458s move to Bournemouth to work the Portsmouth Services as described by @TT-ONR-NRN; 450s currently working those PDL services replace the 458s on Windsor/Reading/Weybridge services pending introduction of 701s, after which point the 450s can be used for lengthening other services as originally intended by the original franchise (or whatever else the future holds for them, as subject to recent speculation)

 

[Elorith]

Sorry, Thanks

But surely it’s entirely speculative that 458s will replace 444s entirely on Waterloo-Weymouths as I felt @Elorith said?

Bournemouth traincare depot, not the crew depot

 

[busestrains]

Does anyone know if the current 458 project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors? Currently the 458 only have door control panels in the cabs or one panel on each side of the middle coach (the coach that is being removed) so the Guard has to return to the rear cab to release the doors at each stop. Where as on the 158 159 444 450 455 456 707 there is a door control panel at every door throughout the train (and in the cabs) so the Guard can operate from wherever. So i am hoping this project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors?

 

[43096]

Does anyone know if the current 458 project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors? Currently the 458 only have door control panels in the cabs or one panel on each side of the middle coach (the coach that is being removed) so the Guard has to return to the rear cab to release the doors at each stop.

The middle coach on the 458s is the TOSLW - i.e. the one with the wheelchair spaces and universal access toilet. It is NOT being removed! The vehicle being removed is the ex-460 trailer.

 

[pompeyfan]

Does anyone know if the current 458 project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors? Currently the 458 only have door control panels in the cabs or one panel on each side of the middle coach (the coach that is being removed) so the Guard has to return to the rear cab to release the doors at each stop. Where as on the 158 159 444 450 455 456 707 there is a door control panel at every door throughout the train (and in the cabs) so the Guard can operate from wherever. So i am hoping this project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors?

They didn’t with the 442s so I doubt they will with the 458s, I would imagine the panel in the middle coach will be moved to the accessible area though or as close as possible to there.

I’m also not sure you’re correct regarding 455s, I thought they were at opposites through the train, similar to a lot of modern stock.

 

[TEW]

They didn’t with the 442s so I doubt they will with the 458s, I would imagine the panel in the middle coach will be moved to the accessible area though or as close as possible to there.

I’m also not sure you’re correct regarding 455s, I thought they were at opposites through the train, similar to a lot of modern stock.

One panel per coach on 455s, the same door on both sides, the door closest to the nearest driving cab. The 456s had the same set up. The ex 508 trailers don't have controls.

707s and 701s are also one panel per coach, but different vestibules on each side of the train.

 

[Elorith]

Does anyone know if the current 458 project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors? Currently the 458 only have door control panels in the cabs or one panel on each side of the middle coach (the coach that is being removed) so the Guard has to return to the rear cab to release the doors at each stop. Where as on the 158 159 444 450 455 456 707 there is a door control panel at every door throughout the train (and in the cabs) so the Guard can operate from wherever. So i am hoping this project includes putting Guard door control panels at every set of doors?

The 460 coach is either the 2nd or 4th coach on the unit; it's the middle ones that will be retained. But yeah, it would be silly not to install one at least at every other door similar to a 707 or ideally at every door as on a 450/444 given the type of work they'll now be doing.

They didn’t with the 442s so I doubt they will with the 458s, I would imagine the panel in the middle coach will be moved to the accessible area though or as close as possible to there.

I’m also not sure you’re correct regarding 455s, I thought they were at opposites through the train, similar to a lot of modern stock.

They're at the front of coach 1 and 2 and the rear of coach 3 or 4, except on a /7, which doesn't have a GOP in its 508 coach.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Could anyone explain who pays for what at present on 'the passenger railway'? Fares revenue goes straight to the government coffers,and SWR are operating under a contract with wafer thin profit margins. Who pays for this refurb ? Also what incentive have SWR got to grow custom as they won't see a penny of it ? Happy to be enlightened. In fact with the move to GBR stalled,who is giving approval for any spending ? Given announced service trimming during 2023,some big decisions must be likely soon? Some interesting comments about the disputes on the telly this morning.

Simply put, the Government pays for the TOC costs, the Government receives the TOC revenue and the TOC (or rather their owners) gets management fees, a base fee and a contract (not just train operation related) performance fee.

Spending decisions on rolling stock are taken by the DfT, who will also decide on what stock is to be used where.

 

[fgwrich]

The middle coach on the 458s is the TOSLW - i.e. the one with the wheelchair spaces and universal access toilet. It is NOT being removed! The vehicle being removed is the ex-460 trailer.

That reminds me. Seeing as they are still intent on sticking with this triggers broom project, I hope the Universal Access Toilet is being replaced. That was always a pitfall on the Juniper design - it is rubbish. I took several journeys on the ScotRail fleet back in September, you had to watch yourself that you weren't going to get hit in the face with the mirror as the budget lock had obviously broken and happily letting that panel swing freely.

 

[Western Sunset]

Implying slightly that 444s should be replaced unless I’ve inferred this wrong? Perhaps 450s on Bournemouth-Winchester?

450s already work the B'mth - Winch trains. They usually use B'mth plat 1 which can only accommodate 4-cars.

 

[jackot]

That reminds me. Seeing as they are still intent on sticking with this triggers broom project, I hope the Universal Access Toilet is being replaced. That was always a pitfall on the Juniper design - it is rubbish. I took several journeys on the ScotRail fleet back in September, you had to watch yourself that you weren't going to get hit in the face with the mirror as the budget lock had obviously broken and happily letting that panel swing freely.

No further comment to add but 'Triggers Broom Project" is such a good way to describe the 458
I can just hear it: "It's had 1 new carriage and 2 new front ends" - "How can it be the same bloody train then?"

In all seriousness it looks fairly smart in the new livery and will hopefully look a bit better without those OCD-inducing mismatching windows on the 460 coaches. Looking forward to seeing what they do on the inside as well.

 

[WizCastro197]

450s already work the B'mth - Winch trains. They usually use B'mth plat 1 which can only accommodate 4-cars.

I've worded that sentence wrong, I thought @Elorith wanted 458s to replace 450s (on BMH-Winch) but they don't and it was a complete misunderstanding on my part Thanks despite.

 

[Elorith]

I really don't know if they'll do an awful lot to them at Widnes besides an interior refresh and some other operational changes.

I am pleased to see they'll be leaving my neck of the woods though. I think they are horrid things to work with.