Back to square one. RMT - RDG talks end.

[Thirteen]

It will probably continue till the government's Transport Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill passes into law. After that action can still be taken but the publicwill still be ae to make essential journeys all be it with reduced frequencies.

I suspect the Bill won't come until effect until 2024 at the earliest, it's only on first reading and it takes ages to get push through.

 

[STINT47]

I suspect the Bill won't come until effect until 2024 at the earliest, it's only on first reading and it takes ages to get push through.

By 2024 we could have z new government so who knows if it will become law. Unfortunately I can see industrial action rumbling on into 2024 in any case

 

[Thirteen]

By 2024 we could have z new government so who knows if it will become law. Unfortunately I can see industrial action rumbling on into 2024 in any case

I honestly don't see running into 2024 mostly for financial reasons.

 

[ARIC]

A shame they'll only enforce "minimum service levels" when it means an attack on the unions...but at times when no industrial action is being taken, TOCs can totally decimate timetables and screw over people wanting to make "essential journeys" as much as they like, and even bag a nice "performance bonus" in the meantime...as long as the shafting of passengers happens BEFORE 22:00 the night before.

What is this country and how have I ended up living here?

 

[winks]

Real shame the talks have broken down.

After 2 weeks you would have thought both sides could have come to a negotiated settlement. I seem to remember a podcast whereby Mick Lynch said he would settle for a “score draw” (in the summer) this being - 4% + 4% but with no changes to working practices.

I also think the RMT have to tread lightly over strike days especially in the run up to Christmas. Over Xmas maybe and in the week before, but a Christmas Eve strike really would be escalatory.

 

[Thirteen]

Real shame the talks have broken down.

After 2 weeks you would have thought both sides could have come to a negotiated settlement. I seem to remember a podcast whereby Mick Lynch said he would settle for a “score draw” (in the summer) this being - 4% + 4% but with no changes to working practices.

I also think the RMT have to tread lightly over strike days especially in the run up to Christmas. Over Xmas maybe and in the week before, but a Christmas Eve strike really would be escalatory.

A strike over Christmas wouldn't make much of an impact aside from maybe NYE but I think Christmas Eve would hurt the RMT in terms of support from the public.

If other unions are able to come to an agreement soon then I wonder if we'll see talks resume?

 

[66701GBRF]

Christmas/New Year tends to be a good money spinner for the staff. I doubt they will call a strike over that period.

 

[Thirteen]

Christmas/New Year tends to be a good money spinner for the staff. I doubt they will call a strike over that period.

The earliest they could call for a strike is Tuesday 6th December although I think 8th, 10th and perhaps 12th December. Anymore of that would cost their members too much in pay and probably from a PR point of view, the unions ruining Christmas is not a good look.

 

[winks]

The earliest they could call for a strike is Tuesday 6th December although I think 8th, 10th and perhaps 12th December. Anymore of that would cost their members too much in pay and probably from a PR point of view, the unions ruining Christmas is not a good look.

Exactly.

 

[newtownmgr]

The longer this dispute go on, the more likely that the minimum services law will be pushed through Parliament. There does seem to be some progress elsewhere as ASLEF cancelled their strike on the 26th with London Overground.

London Overground aren’t controlled by the RDG/DfT. They come under the control of the Mayor of London. All deals struck by aslef (Merseyrail,TfL,Scotrail,Hull Trains,London Overground) are out of dft control. Sort of tells you who’s pulling the strings doesn’t it!!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What agreement? The government aren't particularly fussed. Every strike taken represents money they don't need to pay to the striking workers.

Thats insignificant compared to lost revenue and other fixed costs. All this is doing is worsening railway economics and will lead to further cutbacks of services in due course as they seek to cover the merging gap on operating costs.

 

[tb5345346]

I would write off at least the next year.

What the RMT are demanding is not credible and they won't budge from that position - especially now they have the go ahead for 6 more months of action.

Only thing for certain is that the public get screwed...fully expect strikes every week now until Christmas which will also do massive damage to the wider economy at a time when it is already on life support.

If it means that much then the puppeteers should drop the act and get this mess sorted!

 

[Kite159]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

But then the DfT ain't that stupid.

I suspect there will be an announcement tomorrow/Wednesday that they will strike on the 10th, 17th, 22 & 24th + 29 & 31st Dec. Maybe even the 27th Dec. The union bigwigs won't care about the negative PR about ruining Christmas, they didn't care about the negative PR about striking on the day before the London Marathon after-all.

 

[baz962]

The longer this dispute go on, the more likely that the minimum services law will be pushed through Parliament. There does seem to be some progress elsewhere as ASLEF cancelled their strike on the 26th with London Overground.

Which is because they have a decent offer and also because they aren't paid by the Dft, it's tfl for overground. Also it hasn't been accepted as it is being put to the members for a vote and isn't a certainty.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect there will be an announcement tomorrow/Wednesday that they will strike on the 10th, 17th, 22 & 24th + 29 & 31st Dec.

While those dates make absolute sense strategically, it is probably a bit too much for the RMT workers to take on their own in terms of loss of pay. Really needs Aslef and TSSA to take some of those dates.

 

[the sniper]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

Are they going to sack all the other public sector workers striking too? This forum seems to be behind the times if they think this is just an RMT/railway issue...

 

[Kite159]

While those dates make absolute sense strategically, it is probably a bit too much for the RMT workers to take on their own in terms of loss of pay. Really needs Aslef and TSSA to take some of those dates.

The RMT might try and sweeten it up for their members by offering an one-off "Strike Support payment" to those members who will loss income for the Christmas strikes.

 

[Thirteen]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

But then the DfT ain't that stupid.

I suspect there will be an announcement tomorrow/Wednesday that they will strike on the 10th, 17th, 22 & 24th + 29 & 31st Dec. Maybe even the 27th Dec. The union bigwigs won't care about the negative PR about ruining Christmas, they didn't care about the negative PR about striking on the day before the London Marathon after-all.

I think they will be careful because they got a lot of flack about striking before the London Marathon although TBF they did move one of the strike days because it was the same day as the Armed Forces poppy collection.

 

[Some guy]

The useless tories should unshackle all TOC and allow them to talk. It’s typical that scotrail and TFW seem to be the only ones getting somewhere

 

[Thirteen]

While those dates make absolute sense strategically, it is probably a bit too much for the RMT workers to take on their own in terms of loss of pay. Really needs Aslef and TSSA to take some of those dates.

The RMT might try and sweeten it up for their members by offering an one-off "Strike Support payment" to those members who will loss income for the Christmas strikes.

I'm not sure if the RMT would have enough money to support that and if they have enough to keep it going even longer,

 

[Tetchytyke]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

Fire and rehire can't work on the entire industry.

The union bigwigs won't care about the negative PR about ruining Christmas

Well you don't strike when it's convenient for your employer, do you.

What is this country and how have I ended up living here?

There's nothing new in any of this, the government screw over workers and it's the union barons (why are union leaders always barons?) who are to blame for all of it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

10% spread out between this pay year and next is not credible? Behave. People have had enough of being mugged off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==


There will be no cuts in services. Trains are as busy as ever. It’s a load of nonsense, anyone that works on the railway will confirm as such. Complete rubbish.

Don't bank on that being the outcome everywhere with the TOCs already being told to reduce costs by 10% for 2023/24

 

[bramling]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

Were that scenario to happen, it would be interesting to see what the fall-out would be, particularly in terms of public support.

I have a friend who is normally pretty anti union and anti striking workers, however even he said that he finds it difficult to justify refusing inflation-linked pay rises for public sector staff when the government has just done that for pensioners and people on benefits.

Could find that pressure for a general election becomes too much to bear.

 

[winks]

Are they going to sack all the other public sector workers striking too? This forum seems to be behind the times if they think this is just an RMT/railway issue...

Can someone more knowledgeable than me post the relevant legislation that enables the secretary of state for transport to dismiss and re-hire rail workers on new contracts.

This was talked about by the RMT in the summer ,but has gone quiet.

I believe it to be a section 112 notice ?

 

[philosopher]

They need to be careful in the unlikely event the government decides to go down the nuclear route of saying the working relationship has broken down so here is your P45 with the talks breaking down, the protection against being sacked for striking is long gone.

But then the DfT ain't that stupid.

I suspect there will be an announcement tomorrow/Wednesday that they will strike on the 10th, 17th, 22 & 24th + 29 & 31st Dec. Maybe even the 27th Dec. The union bigwigs won't care about the negative PR about ruining Christmas, they didn't care about the negative PR about striking on the day before the London Marathon after-all.

Strikes on such dates I suspect would turn a very large proportion of the population against the unions.

The Tories could quite easily pass a law banning strikes or least very heavily restricting them as they have large majority. If strikes mean many are unable to celebrate Christmas, which for some could be the third Christmas in row due to the last two christmases being impacted by Covid, then the government may conclude it has the public backing for such a move.

 

[bramling]

Strikes on such dates I suspect would turn a very large of the population against the unions.

The Tories could quite easily pass a law banning strikes or least very heavily restricting them as they have large majority. If strikes mean many are unable to celebrate Christmas, which for some could be the third Christmas in row due to the last two christmases being impacted by Covid, then the government may conclude it has the public backing for such a move.

Normally the above would probably square up, but I don’t see there being the public backing. It isn’t just the railway industry that has industrial unrest, and people are sick of this government anyway. With most of the public sector having IR issues of various sorts, one has to consider what the common factor is.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Were that scenario to happen, it would be interesting to see what the fall-out would be, particularly in terms of public support.

I have a friend who is normally pretty anti union and anti striking workers, however even he said that he finds it difficult to justify refusing inflation-linked pay rises for public sector staff when the government has just done that for pensioners and people on benefits.

Could find that pressure for a general election becomes too much to bear.

It would surely depend on the actions of the unions - if they strike every weekend until Christmas and even more heavily around the Christmas period, then public sympathy may be limited. People might simultaneously think it's right for rail workers to get a pay rise but also be angry at the constant strikes and disruption.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The useless tories should unshackle all TOC and allow them to talk. It’s typical that scotrail and TFW seem to be the only ones getting somewhere

The TOCs are talking but with both hands tied behind their backs and their legs shackled to the wall. Until more funding is given to the TOCs to fund staff costs they can do very little. Im sure even the management are becoming demoralised with the situation as they can see out industry being undermined by the same DfT people who will then tell them to balance the budget.

 

[bramling]

It would surely depend on the actions of the unions - if they strike every weekend until Christmas and even more heavily around the Christmas period, then public sympathy may be limited. People might simultaneously think it's right for rail workers to get a pay rise but also be angry at the constant strikes and disruption.

Agreed, however that anger may well find itself directed towards the government rather than the rail staff / unions. My feeling is people really are properly sick of this government, and the polls certainly reflect this.

 

[GalaxyDog]

Up the RMT.

The government have brought the misery on themselves. On three occasions now the RMT have halted industrial action in order not to inconvene the public, in good faith:

The Queen's mourning period/lying in state and Funeral. Guess who transported people to go stand in The Queue.
The Royal British Legion Poppy event, early November - a day was called off in order to accommodate this.
These talks - I remember getting the lightning-bolt message that all three days of strikes had been called off, and that there were to be constructive talks and an offer on the table to discuss and hammer out.

Don't lash out at us or the RMT. We've tried to play cricket. You all know just how deceitful this current Conservative shambles is - stealth privatisation of the NHS, pouring sewage into the seas, partying during Covid and so forth.

Take your anger out on those who would wage ideological war, not us.
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