Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Bletchleyite]

They’ve painted a full fleet of ex Arriva trains that are about to go off lease, and they won’t even paint eight rakes of permanent carriages that are supposed to make up the premiership of the fleet. It’s embarrassing and such a wasted opportunity to make them look good.

I totally agree.

 

[northernbelle]

They’ve painted a full fleet of ex Arriva trains that are about to go off lease, and they won’t even paint eight rakes of permanent carriages that are supposed to make up the premiership of the fleet. It’s embarrassing and such a wasted opportunity to make them look good.

I suspect it was the ROSCO that dictated those trains be repainted, not TfW.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for your comments following on from my ‘livery' post this morning. I thought that only one set was coming from Grand Central so surely the idea of keeping that black livery with the stripe changing to red to save a few bucks does not hold up? Why would they want a livery that was almost the same as another company? (Yes, I do know that ‘main’ TfW livery is similar to Greater Anglia). They must have got these coaches at low cost because they were destined for scrap.

‘Rhydgaled’ makes the point about the GWR IET’s look good in the right light. The ones that have proper paint jobs look a lot better than those with stick on vinyl - which has all the allure of a British army tank.

Photo 1 below shows the livery of most of the Mark 4’s that I guess have come from Anglia? Photo 2 shows the Blue Pullman - a preserved HST which has been painted in the livery of a 1960’s Pullman. I have included this in this discussion because I think it looks stunning going through the countryside and really stands out - unlike darker liveries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The picture on the left looks like a depot scratch set that's been chucked out because nothing better was available. Not a premium InterCity service. The billboard on the DVT looks particularly awful.

The black sets look like that but in black.

 

[43096]

I suspect it was the ROSCO that dictated those trains be repainted, not TfW.

If you’re referring to the 150s, I thought they were vinyled? They’re not that long off their C6 overhauls at Crewe, so it’s unlikely a ROSCO requirement.

 

[43096]

Photo 2 shows the Blue Pullman - a preserved HST which has been painted in the livery of a 1960’s Pullman.

I - and many others - would take great issue with the description of that as “preserved”. It’s no more preserved than stock operated by Riviera or WCRC is.

 

[AlexNL]

I'm not a huge fan of the slapdash approach with which TfW have applied their Remembrance vinyls to the trains. The idea is nice but the execution could've been better.

I do like the black sets though, it makes them stand out really well from the rest of the TfW fleet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think it's the red roof of the black 67 which just makes it look so odd, especially as the MK4s don't have a red roof anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's the red roof of the black 67 which just makes it look so odd, especially as the MK4s don't have a red roof anyway.

Yep, that looks like a cheap job showing up the existing faded DB Verkehrsrot, which is what it is - the 67's roof hasn't been repainted.

See also the cheap job on XC of leaving the old Virgin red roof on the Voyagers, but not cleaning it so it looks like mucky purple.

 

[Envoy]

I think it's the red roof of the black 67 which just makes it look so odd, especially as the MK4s don't have a red roof anyway.

Surely, the red roof on the 67’s will turn black with fumes?

 

[43096]

Yep, that looks like a cheap job showing up the existing faded DB Verkehrsrot, which is what it is - the 67's roof hasn't been repainted.

Except it has been repainted. Look at post 1628.

I’d also point out that 67020 was previously in EWS livery, not DB red.

 

[XAM2175]

I thought that only one set was coming from Grand Central so surely the idea of keeping that black livery with the stripe changing to red to save a few bucks does not hold up? Why would they want a livery that was almost the same as another company? (Yes, I do know that ‘main’ TfW livery is similar to Greater Anglia). They must have got these coaches at low cost because they were destined for scrap.
...
Photo 1 below shows the livery of most of the Mark 4’s that I guess have come from Anglia?

The Mk 4s came from LNER, but they were all still in Virgin Trains East Coast 'livery' which is actually just all vinyl stickers. Underneath it, to the best of my recollection, is just the old East Coast grey. The stickers have to be removed in the very near future as part of a mandatory periodic maintenance process (hence LNER recently repainting all they ones they kept), so technically yes, TfW are saving the cost of repainting that one ex-GC set if they repaint all the others to match it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they only taking one GC set? I thought it was several.

 

[Rhydgaled]

In that case wouldn't the mark 4s have gone for scrap with new-build stock ordered for the Holyhead-Cardiff expresses?

Depends if you think 80x with Sophias would have been better

I didn't say I was advocating that - I'm all for 'make do and mend' in this case.

Also, wouldn't the Euston-Blackpool runs have been premier, top-line services if Grand Central had managed to get them going?

No, they'd have been a budget service, just like the other Grand Central operation which appears to be scruffy and generally badly run. Yet they bothered to paint it!

Yes, Grand Central bothered to paint the mark 4s, but they were getting close to being due for a repaint anyway for maintainance reasons (see LNER where they are also being repainted now) - in contrast the black sets at TfW aren't due a repaint because it had just been done by Grand Central.

In the case of the (white/red) mark 4s at TfW that came directly from LNER however I agree - they look a mess from the outside and TfW should have repainted the whole set when they repainted the DVTs (although then we would now have the problem of whether to paint the locos white to match the earlier sets or black to match the Grand Central ones).

I doubt anyone would have said a thing if they'd just been painted in the proper TfW red/white/charcoal colours without the cheap looking billboard on the DVT. (I do like themed promotional liveries where a picture is blended in with the usual livery shape, e.g. Northern have done a number of these plus the Marston Vale 230s, but this is quite literally just whacking a rectangular bill poster on it in vinyl form, and it looks dirt cheap).

I wouldn't say 'dirt cheap' but I agree that those DVT billboards are just 'plonk' and don't look at all well thought out. If the RNLI one had been paired with one of the Grand Central sets they could even have left the orange stripe on the carriages of that one set, extending the RNLI branding to the whole set.

Many thanks everyone for your comments following on from my ‘livery' post this morning. I thought that only one set was coming from Grand Central so surely the idea of keeping that black livery with the stripe changing to red to save a few bucks does not hold up? Why would they want a livery that was almost the same as another company? (Yes, I do know that ‘main’ TfW livery is similar to Greater Anglia). They must have got these coaches at low cost because they were destined for scrap.

Photo 1 below shows the livery of most of the Mark 4’s that I guess have come from Anglia? Photo 2 shows the Blue Pullman - a preserved HST which has been painted in the livery of a 1960’s Pullman. I have included this in this discussion because I think it looks stunning going through the countryside and really stands out - unlike darker liveries.

The mark 4s came from LNER (in Virgin Trains East Coast (majority-owned by Stagecoach if I recall correctly) livery), not from Anglia. Lighter colours can look bland though (like the old ATW turquoise) - darker looks smarter in the right suituation (eg. GNER blue) but a solid colour (like GWR green).

‘Rhydgaled’ makes the point about the GWR IET’s look good in the right light. The ones that have proper paint jobs look a lot better than those with stick on vinyl - which has all the allure of a British army tank.

I meant the GWR colour scheme in general looks good in the right light - I did qualify that with the comment about the design of the IETs working against that, the 387s, 158s and the orignal two HST sets (that still had slam doors) are better-looking trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Are they only taking one GC set? I thought it was several.

According to the 225 Group's mark 4 fleet list there are four DVTs and four TSOEs in Grand Central livery, suggesting there were four Grand Central sets although Wikipedia says it was five. Also from the 225 Group, TfW have eight mark 4 sets so the four or five black sets make up either half or just over half of the TfW mark 4 fleet.

 

[XAM2175]

Are they only taking one GC set? I thought it was several.

I lost track ages ago, but the point is the same regardless - adopting an all-black-base livery means the GC sets don't have to be redone.

 

[43096]

Are they only taking one GC set? I thought it was several.

There’s four GC liveried sets in the TfW fleet, with four VTEC liveried sets.

 

[craigybagel]

I doubt anyone would have said a thing if they'd just been painted in the proper TfW red/white/charcoal colours without the cheap looking billboard on the DVT.

Given how many comments there are on this forum about the tiniest of changes to any train, I think you're being a bit naive there. We're on 1600 posts in this thread alone.....

The Mk 4s came from LNER, but they were all still in Virgin Trains East Coast 'livery' which is actually just all vinyl stickers. Underneath it, to the best of my recollection, is just the old East Coast grey. The stickers have to be removed in the very near future as part of a mandatory periodic maintenance process (hence LNER recently repainting all they ones they kept), so technically yes, TfW are saving the cost of repainting that one ex-GC set if they repaint all the others to match it.

Are they only taking one GC set? I thought it was several.

4 GC sets, plus some spares from LNER, plus the 3 original sets that need repainting soon anyway.

Looking through this thread, some like the black, some don't. I'll admit, the current situation is a little inconsistent, but if their introduction was delayed further to allow for repainting I'm sure we'd see even more people moaning.

 

[Armchair Bob]

Given how many comments there are on this forum about the tiniest of changes to any train, I think you're being a bit naive there. We're on 1600 posts in this thread alone.....



4 GC sets, plus some spares from LNER, plus the 3 original sets that need repainting soon anyway.

Looking through this thread, some like the black, some don't. I'll admit, the current situation is a little inconsistent, but if their introduction was delayed further to allow for repainting I'm sure we'd see even more people moaning.

I agree. HD01-3 need SDO mods. The 8th rake needs assembling. They all need to be tested in service. A 5th coach is still to be inserted into each rake at some point. When there are enough available, l expect that's when attention will be turned to painting them in a uniform livery. Not forgetting that all this is costing a lot of money, and for that reason alone everything can't be done at once. I'm sure the end product will be worth waiting for and that's part of the fun for us enthusiasts!

 

[43102EMR]

Anyone have the diagrams for these on 11th Dec (the timetable change) between Swansea and Manchester? Possibly posted up thread but missed them.

 

[anthony263]

0536 Swansea to Manchester piccalilli (1015)

1030 Manchester piccadilly to Cardiff (1345)

I can't remember the rest off top of my head

 

[43102EMR]

Not to worry, many thanks!

0536 Swansea to Manchester piccalilli (1015)

1030 Manchester piccadilly to Cardiff (1345)

I can't remember the rest off top of my head

 

[43055]

Anyone have the diagrams for these on 11th Dec (the timetable change) between Swansea and Manchester? Possibly posted up thread but missed them.

Indeed posted on earlier in the thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rk-4-sets-for-tfw.182406/page-53#post-5909930

 

[craigybagel]

0536 Swansea to Manchester piccalilli (1015)

1030 Manchester piccadilly to Cardiff (1345)

I can't remember the rest off top of my head

That's it as far as Swansea is concerned. The evening service is planned to be a DMU until at least May.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Interestingly in the TfW timetables from December all the planned MkIV diagrams show 1st and restaurant for 1st class/buffet service for the Manchester to Cardiff services. It's also the same currently shown on RTT for them

Have TfW worked out what they're doing re first class and catering for these?

 

[craigybagel]

Interestingly in the TfW timetables from December all the planned MkIV diagrams show 1st and restaurant for 1st class/buffet service for the Manchester to Cardiff services. It's also the same currently shown on RTT for them

Have TfW worked out what they're doing re first class and catering for these?

I wouldn't read too much into it, it's even showing those facilities on the diagram that's booked to be a 175 until May.

 

[victormildrew]

1V91 05.33 Premier service Holyhead to Cardiff a 175 two car?, is the stock in for repair/maintenance?.

 

[craigybagel]

1V91 05.33 Premier service Holyhead to Cardiff a 175 two car?, is the stock in for repair/maintenance?.

There's only been one set out in public service all week, not sure why.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

There's only been one set out in public service all week, not sure why.

HD03 was taken off at Chester on Saturday after the rugby extras and HD01 is away for SDO, however HD05 has been in Canton all week with 67020 so I don't know why they haven't sent that out.

 

[Purple Orange]

What formation will the TfW Mk4 trains be in?

 

[sd0733]

There's only been one set out in public service all week, not sure why.

HD05 has static converter issues at Canton and HD03 requires tyre turning at Crewe, with HD01 at Landore that only leaves HD02 as the only working set.

SDO training is suspended next week with the Canton set being used on proving runs between Cardiff and Swansea and the Crewe set between Shrewsbury and Manchester via Wem at least on Monday and Tuesday.