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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Rhydgaled

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It's harder to apply "count the rows" to the whole unit as the proportions of e.g. tables are different. I'd need to know the actual measured seat pitch for a given seat type to know if anything has been "crammed in".
I can't help you with the 196s, but on a 197 the non-priority airline seats are spaced at 820mm intervals and a table bay takes up 1840mm (both figures from the seat plan supplied by TfW and reproduced here).197 seatplan.png

I found the seat better that a 195 but not as good as a 175.
The seats are more upright than a 175, and a little taller, with fractionally less leg room.
I once measured the space between the rows in the airline seats on a 175 which was 84cm, so a class 197 would have 2cm less legroom if they were using the same seats. Given the Sophias (assuming they are the same awful rock hard things as the 800s have) probably have thinner backs than the class 175 seating then the difference in legroom is probably small as you suggest.

If the central section is longer then the end sections are shorter, obviously. And the end sections in all of them have 6 rows. A coach with 21 rows overall has more legroom than the same length coach with 22 rows. Where they’ve put the doors doesn’t change that.
I agree, where they put the doors doesn't change that. Other things like the design of the cabs, equipment cupboards, luggage racks, toilets and the width of the doors might well change that though.

Ultimately the majority of the travelling public won't have this obsession with seat alignment to windows. TfW bought and designed the interior of the units to what they needed.
Leisure travel is supposedly recovering better following the pandemic and several TfW routes are marketed as scenic (in my opinion the Cambrian Coast is one of Britain's best in that regard, and TfW's plan is to reduce the provision of perfectly aligned table-bays from (I think) 15/16 on the 158s to 4/10 on the 197s (based on the seat plan above)).
 
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Bletchleyite

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Good lord, that First Class layout is a lazy bodge job. The misaligned bay could have been easily avoided by putting the luggage rack either by the cab or between the priority row and the table bay.

I can see several other places where window alignment could easily be improved with a seat spanner and half an hour.
 

Envoy

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On DMSL coach - I see 2 seats with no window backing onto the toilet. Can’t these simply be moved so that they have their backs to the coach entry point which would give them a window view? I take it that the rest of the space in this area is for disabled people who could surely move to align with windows? Is this space also used for bicycles? Could at least one bicycle go by the flip up seats facing the toilet? Who would want to spend their journey in a flip up seat with no view and facing the toilet?

Are the DVT’s on the loco hauled stock going to be used to carry bicycles and promoted as such to help limit the number on the 197’s?

It is a pity that trains can’t have narrow pillars like the Class 170’s and hence a better chance of seeing out for passengers.

I don’t get why the 197’s will be used on the short Borderlands route between Wrexham & Bidston. Surely, they would be better employed on the Heart of Wales (Swansea > Llandrindod > Shrewsbury/Crewe) where people could be travelling for hours and have the 153’s on the Borderlands route? The Heart of Wales is also more likely to have tourists whilst the Borderlands will more likely be local commuters. (Yes, I know that only staff at Chester & Crewe know how to work the 197’s at present).
 

Bletchleyite

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It is a pity that trains can’t have narrow pillars like the Class 170’s and hence a better chance of seeing out for passengers.

CAF units don't have particularly wide pillars. It would only involve losing 4 seats just two seats per coach to do a fully-aligned centre section against the 4 windows with excellent legroom and lots of tables (and added luggage space between seat backs) as per e.g. the Class 185 or the Chiltern and ScotRail Turbostars.

I'd do a layout like #[ [ [ ] [ ] ] ]#, where the slightly less legroom needed for airline seats would allow a small luggage stack or standback at both ends (the hash mark), placed against the slightly wider pillar by the door.

The DMS with first class lacks Standard luggage storage, so the layout could be fixed there by putting luggage stacks in the spare space rather than cramming in an extra row causing misalignment.
 
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NewClee153

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Hoping to get my first ride on one of them this Monday (if they’re out)

From watching Rail Focus' (Chris') video on YouTube, they seem to suffer the same ride quality issues as their northern cousins. Though this could be related to the track between Llandudno Junction and Blaenau Ffestiniog

I’m trying to go into Monday with an open mind, while the 195s/331s are horrible units, and the 397s are disappointing, the 196s are fantastic in comparison. Though I do worry how these will fair with the lack of table seats and luggage compartments to the 158s/175s they’ll be replacing
 
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Peter Sarf

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Good lord, that First Class layout is a lazy bodge job. The misaligned bay could have been easily avoided by putting the luggage rack either by the cab or between the priority row and the table bay.

I can see several other places where window alignment could easily be improved with a seat spanner and half an hour.
The luggage racks are nearest to the external doors (and a thief's exit). They have put the second class tables as far as possible from doors. In first class they are the opposite - they are nearest to the external door !. Necessary I know as the aisle is off centre so will not align with internal doors. But then the table bays could have gone right behind the cab if the four seat table became a 3 seats only table thus lining up with a window and then a pair of airline behind, currently there are no pairs of airline in first class.
 

craigybagel

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Are the DVT’s on the loco hauled stock going to be used to carry bicycles and promoted as such to help limit the number on the 197’s?
Yes. They have bike racks fitted in the DVTs.
I don’t get why the 197’s will be used on the short Borderlands route between Wrexham & Bidston. Surely, they would be better employed on the Heart of Wales (Swansea > Llandrindod > Shrewsbury/Crewe) where people could be travelling for hours and have the 153’s on the Borderlands route? The Heart of Wales is also more likely to have tourists whilst the Borderlands will more likely be local commuters. (Yes, I know that only staff at Chester & Crewe know how to work the 197’s at present).
Staffing isn't the issue - everybody at Shrewsbury will sign 197s eventually (though to correct your point, at present nearly all crews at Holyhead and Llandudno Junction and a large amount at Chester sign 197s, plus a handful at Crewe).

What's a bigger issue is that 153s simply aren't capable of keeping to time on the Bidston line - the timetable is too tight and 153s just too slow.
 

warwickshire

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Driver trainer who spoke to me on the first service said Wrexham-Bidston line will be next, starting from December, then Chester-Liverpool, buy possibly not be until early next year. But who knows, it could be earlier, as mentioned earlier it just seems TfW are overly cautious.
Very sensible approach from TFW on the 197 start up. Unlike northern with the 195 and the 2019 December fiasco, no units, lack of staff trained up. Too many Pacers sent to scrap early. TFW taking sensible approach holding onto 175s where needed and then replacing one by one when the 197s go into service. Not getting rid of a whole fleet in one go.
 

SuperLuke2334

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I've seen reported on Facebook this evening there will be a 197 move from Crewe to Cardiff Canton tomorrow morning, someone said 197002 but I don't know for sure whether it will be that. First time a 197 has been south of Hereford I believe.

It's a sign of progress that crew training down there may be starting soon!
 

Anonymous10

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I've seen reported on Facebook this evening there will be a 197 move from Crewe to Cardiff Canton tomorrow morning, someone said 197002 but I don't know for sure whether it will be that. First time a 197 has been south of Hereford I believe.

It's a sign of progress that crew training down there may be starting soon!
there is a path from crewe gresty sidings arriving into canton at 12:07 and marked as an ecs movement of a dmu on realtime trains
 

Peter Sarf

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Bletchleyite

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Monday to Friday only at the moment

Thanks. Won't waste a trip tomorrow then :)

There's a good chance I might be able to sneak in an evening trip on Fri 25th due to needing to be in Wales anyway...was just seeing if I could do it in daylight without time off, the Conwy Valley in the dark loses its benefit :)
 

Techniquest

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I've spied an opportunity to venture up that way on Wednesday, connecting up a few little ideas, so I might be sampling a 197 soon. I should know by the end of the day, as the forecast looks rough for Llandudno, which makes it harder to justify the expense!
 

317 forever

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I am accepting that 197s will not be on Manchester - North Wales by the time I could use the line on December 10th.

However, I sincerely hope that they are in service by next May on that line, Liverpool-Chester or Bidston-Wrexham (if 230s still not available by then).
 

Philip

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This shows the TfW planned unit diagrams from December. A 197 is planned for a Manchester-North Wales diagram from December, according to the spreadsheet; it is the one which works the 10:25 and 15:25 off Manchester Airport to Llandudno.
 

Ribbleman

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This shows the TfW planned unit diagrams from December. A 197 is planned for a Manchester-North Wales diagram from December, according to the spreadsheet; it is the one which works the 10:25 and 15:25 off Manchester Airport to Llandudno.
There can’t be many instances of a unit leaving a depot and having to reverse five times before commencing passenger service, but that is what is required between Chester Depot and Wrexham Central.
 

busestrains

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Oh dear. Is Elin the English-speaking voice as feared?
I was travelling on the 197 on the first day in service on the 14th of November earlier this week and it is indeed the new "Elin" announcements (the exact same as the MK4 ones and the same format and script too) and they really are dreadful. I was also on a few MK4 sets for some long journeys recently and they are very annoying announcements. Eryl Jones has a nice voice but i do not like that new "Elin" voice at all. I find this "Elin" voice to be very harsh sounding. I am very disappointed that Ruth has not been used.

Also the announcements are so slow with such big long gaps between all the words. It takes forever for the announcements to play. There is such a long gap between every station that is listed. Then between the Eryl Jones and "Elin" announcements there is a very long pause. They are just dragging out the announcements as long as possible with such long pauses between words and sentences. They sound utterly dreadful.

Seeing that these new announcements are on all the new fleet 197/230/231/398/756/MK4 i am really not looking forward to when these are all in service. I have always thought Ruth has such a nice friendly pleasant sounding voice. Her announcements are at the right speed and are a good format. Plus also Ruth has been used since 1996 and has become such a familiar well known voice. Honesty they made a huge mistake not keeping Ruth on the new trains and introducing these new "Elin" announcements.
 

SuperLuke2334

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First 197 has now passed South of Hereford on an ECS from Shrewsbury to Cardiff. Witnessed at Hereford. I would post the photo but I took it in high quality so its too large.
 

anthony263

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First 197 has now passed South of Hereford on an ECS from Shrewsbury to Cardiff. Witnessed at Hereford. I would post the photo but I took it in high quality so its too large.
Its currently around 33 minutes early around Abergavenny.

Its due into Cardiff around 1325 .link to realtime trains :

 

Jacob Porrett

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Techniquest

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If I'd realised it was coming through today, I'd have gone and positioned myself for it, I was instead out cycling and shopping!
 

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