CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Mzzzs]

Any dates yet on when they will start on the Liverpool to Chester service?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

197004 having a rest, so baton handed over to 197011 today

Yep, it's good to see that there are at least a couple of units ready to be swapped around if needed.

 

[Philip]

Any dates yet on when they will start on the Liverpool to Chester service?

To add to the Liverpool to Chester question, any rough ideas yet when they'll start appearing on Manchester to North/South Wales?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

To add to the Liverpool to Chester question, any rough ideas yet when they'll start appearing on Manchester to North/South Wales?

Roughly, north Wales to Manchester should be fairly soon as they need to release units south to cover for 170s and strengthen SW to Manchester services, but the SW to Manchester services can't go 197 until Shrewsbury, Cardiff and Carmarthen are trained on the units, so it'll be a while yet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've sat in them. I found them to be firm but supportive, and leg room is sufficient (and I'm 6 feet tall and struggle on a lot of the current fleet). Much better than I expected.

I found the seat better that a 195 but not as good as a 175.
The seats are more upright than a 175, and a little taller, with fractionally less leg room.

 

[craigybagel]

Yep, it's good to see that there are at least a couple of units ready to be swapped around if needed.

There should be several sets available - the delays getting them into service weren't so much down to issues with the units themselves. Some of them need some modifications to the cabs before they're allowed into service, but in general it shouldn't take too long to get more sets in service

To add to the Liverpool to Chester question, any rough ideas yet when they'll start appearing on Manchester to North/South Wales?

Roughly, north Wales to Manchester should be fairly soon as they need to release units south to cover for 170s and strengthen SW to Manchester services, but the SW to Manchester services can't go 197 until Shrewsbury, Cardiff and Carmarthen are trained on the units, so it'll be a while yet.

Manchester to North Wales and Liverpool to Chester should indeed be pretty soon. Training isn't far off complete for the depots up there. It'll be a while before we see them on Manchester - South Wales though. A small amount of Crewe crews have been trained, but so far nobody at Shrewsbury, Cardiff or Carmarthen. It's likely we'll see them on North Wales - Cardiff services first, and I believe the hope is to get a set out on that route in Spring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've sat in them. I found them to be firm but supportive, and leg room is sufficient (and I'm 6 feet tall and struggle on a lot of the current fleet). Much better than I expected.

The Sophia has a thin back so does tend to mean decent legroom, that's true on the 80x as well. It's also shaped for men, i.e. you get a bit more legroom at the outer edge of the seat back in front than in the middle, as per the 175 seat though not as pronounced. Seats like the original 158 seat and the FISA LEAN miss the point here - most tall people are men, and most men can't comfortably sit with their legs together to make use of the niche. A good design has a supporting central pillar and more space cut in at the sides.

See what you think of the bases after 6 months of use...

 

[Mordac]

The Sophia has a thin back so does tend to mean decent legroom, that's true on the 80x as well. It's also shaped for men, i.e. you get a bit more legroom at the outer edge of the seat back in front than in the middle, as per the 175 seat though not as pronounced. Seats like the original 158 seat and the FISA LEAN miss the point here - most tall people are men, and most men can't comfortably sit with their legs together to make use of the niche. A good design has a supporting central pillar and more space cut in at the sides.

See what you think of the bases after 6 months of use...

Unless you suffer from severe elephantiasis of the testicles, you can sit with your legs closed. You can choose not to, but people doing so are just outsourcing their discomfort to the people sitting next to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you suffer from severe elephantiasis of the testicles, you can sit with your legs closed. You can choose not to, but people doing so are just outsourcing their discomfort to the people sitting next to them.

Says a skinny person (well, someone without rugby legs).

I am not capable of comfortably sitting with my knees in the niche of the sort of seat that has one. With my legs straight, the ends of my knees are further apart than that.

The correct answer is to design seats for the size and comfort of actual people, not theoretical ones from years ago. My car has such seats.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

There should be several sets available - the delays getting them into service weren't so much down to issues with the units themselves. Some of them need some modifications to the cabs before they're allowed into service, but in general it shouldn't take too long to get more sets in service



Manchester to North Wales and Liverpool to Chester should indeed be pretty soon. Training isn't far off complete for the depots up there. It'll be a while before we see them on Manchester - South Wales though. A small amount of Crewe crews have been trained, but so far nobody at Shrewsbury, Cardiff or Carmarthen. It's likely we'll see them on North Wales - Cardiff services first, and I believe the hope is to get a set out on that route in Spring.

You mentioned cab modifications, what kind of modifications are needed?

 

[craigybagel]

You mentioned cab modifications, what kind of modifications are needed?

Nothing major, just a few tweaks ASLEF have suggested to make them more comfortable for staff. The changes have already been made on the units in service so they're clearly not deal breakers.

Overall though the drivers who've done their training on them are very happy with the cabs - they're by a long way the most comfortable vehicles in the fleet. Most TfW drivers outside the Valleys will sign 197s and at least one other fleet, and be that 153, 230 or 67/MKIV none of them can compare to a 197 for comfort.

 

[anthony263]

Yep, it's good to see that there are at least a couple of units ready to be swapped around if needed.

5 units ready for use in public ive been told by some staff on Facebook there might be more available though

 

[Bletchleyite]

5 units ready for use in public ive been told by some staff on Facebook there might be more available though

That's good as I guess it means more chance one will be out!

There is a chance I will get to ride one not this coming Friday but the Friday after...

(A lot easier to track down than 196s because Realtime Trains shows unit numbers for TfW!)

 

[anamyd]

Nothing major, just a few tweaks ASLEF have suggested to make them more comfortable for staff. The changes have already been made on the units in service so they're clearly not deal breakers.

What tweaks?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

What tweaks?

Coffee machine and sky sports in cab I heard. They wanted BT and prime to apparently but that was pushing it.

 

[Anonymous10]

Coffee machine and sky sports in cab I heard. They wanted BT and prime to apparently but that was pushing it.

i dont think having a comfortable work environment is unreasonable tbh

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Overall though the drivers who've done their training on them are very happy with the cabs - they're by a long way the most comfortable vehicles in the fleet. Most TfW drivers outside the Valleys will sign 197s and at least one other fleet, and be that 153, 230 or 67/MKIV none of them can compare to a 197 for comfort.

How do they feel about the view from the gangwayed cab, compared to the full-width 175?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Coffee machine and sky sports in cab I heard. They wanted BT and prime to apparently but that was pushing it.

The ironic thing is that’s allegedly not far off why the GWR 769s haven’t started work yet

 

[craigybagel]

Coffee machine and sky sports in cab I heard. They wanted BT and prime to apparently but that was pushing it.

With so many TV screens in the cab, it would be a shame not to use every one!

i dont think having a comfortable work environment is unreasonable tbh

Like I said it's nothing major. One of the air vents was blasting air onto the power-brake controller, and given that's where our left hand sits most of the time that was a bit annoying, so it's been altered. The sun blind can now be lowered further than before. There's a foot rest now for the secondmans seat. Stuff like that, all minor things that are difficult to pick up before a fully working train is built, but easily rectified once noticed

How do they feel about the view from the gangwayed cab, compared to the full-width 175?

That was a big topic of conversation in messrooms before the units were built, but the reality is they're barely any worse than a 158. In my experience, once you start driving you don't even notice it's there - other than the odd location with a sharp right hand corner with a signal along it. Even then it's nothing you can't cope with. Most impressive is that those gangways are pretty much silent even at 90mph, you don't get the awful wind noise you get in a sprinter.

 

[Anonymous10]

With so many TV screens in the cab, it would be a shame not to use every one!

Like I said it's nothing major. One of the air vents was blasting air onto the power-brake controller, and given that's where our left hand sits most of the time that was a bit annoying, so it's been altered. The sun blind can now be lowered further than before. There's a foot rest now for the secondmans seat. Stuff like that, all minor things that are difficult to pick up before a fully working train is built, but easily rectified once noticed

That was a big topic of conversation in messrooms before the units were built, but the reality is they're barely any worse than a 158. In my experience, once you start driving you don't even notice it's there - other than the odd location with a sharp right hand corner with a signal along it. Even then it's nothing you can't cope with. Most impressive is that those gangways are pretty much silent even at 90mph, you don't get the awful wind noise you get in a sprinter.

kind of like creature comforts to your desk at a office job, hopefully they're great for passengers soon

 

[DanNCL]

Coffee machine and sky sports in cab I heard. They wanted BT and prime to apparently but that was pushing it.

It could be worse - if they’d asked for anything like that in England they’d have been offered GB News

 

[Philip]

There should be several sets available - the delays getting them into service weren't so much down to issues with the units themselves. Some of them need some modifications to the cabs before they're allowed into service, but in general it shouldn't take too long to get more sets in service



Manchester to North Wales and Liverpool to Chester should indeed be pretty soon. Training isn't far off complete for the depots up there. It'll be a while before we see them on Manchester - South Wales though. A small amount of Crewe crews have been trained, but so far nobody at Shrewsbury, Cardiff or Carmarthen. It's likely we'll see them on North Wales - Cardiff services first, and I believe the hope is to get a set out on that route in Spring.

Roughly, north Wales to Manchester should be fairly soon as they need to release units south to cover for 170s and strengthen SW to Manchester services, but the SW to Manchester services can't go 197 until Shrewsbury, Cardiff and Carmarthen are trained on the units, so it'll be a while yet.

Possibly looking like the May timetable next year for introduction onto Manchester-South Wales services then.

Perhaps in the meantime 158s will temporarily be used on some of the non-LHCS services if they want to start dispensing of the 175s come the Spring?

 

[Wolfie]

Nothing major, just a few tweaks ASLEF have suggested to make them more comfortable for staff. The changes have already been made on the units in service so they're clearly not deal breakers.

Overall though the drivers who've done their training on them are very happy with the cabs - they're by a long way the most comfortable vehicles in the fleet. Most TfW drivers outside the Valleys will sign 197s and at least one other fleet, and be that 153, 230 or 67/MKIV none of them can compare to a 197 for comfort.

Glad to hear that the drivers are happy. You would hope that new stock would be better but from what l've read on here that isn't always so.

 

[craigybagel]

Possibly looking like the May timetable next year for introduction onto Manchester-South Wales services then.

Hard to see it any earlier than that - and even that might be optimistic. Depends on how quickly the South Wales depots can be trained, and Cardiff is busy enough learning 67s and Stadlers already.

Perhaps in the meantime 158s will temporarily be used on some of the non-LHCS services if they want to start dispensing of the 175s come the Spring?

That would rely on 197s being introduced to the Cambrian, which given how the units inter work is no easy task.

Glad to hear that the drivers are happy. You would hope that new stock would be better but from what l've read on here that isn't always so.

This is my first time on the railway working on brand new stock so I can't really compare - but it's really hard to think of anything more I'd have wanted from these cabs. There's a few design quirks that will take a bit of getting used to, but I'd have to get into really minute details to find many flaws.

 

[Caaardiff]

Possibly looking like the May timetable next year for introduction onto Manchester-South Wales services then.

Perhaps in the meantime 158s will temporarily be used on some of the non-LHCS services if they want to start dispensing of the 175s come the Spring?

There is no plan for either of those things to happen for May.
175s will continue to fill the alternate non mk4 services and cover 170s that will be going.

 

[Bob Price]

I would imagine the South West Wales services will be the last to get 197's. The priority will be North Wales services freeing up trains to replace the 170's and boost services where possible. Getting 150's and 153's off the Manchester services has to be a positive, it's a long way from Swansea to Manchester in a Sprinter. Freeing up 175's will benefit those services in the short term

 

[Philip]

I think the 197s will be introduced to the South West Wales services before they start on the Cambrian lines.

Hopefully there'll be a few 175/0s running in double formation on the Manchester services once they're cascaded from North Wales. Most of the 3-car sets will be needed for directly replacing 170s.

 

[craigybagel]

I think the 197s will be introduced to the South West Wales services before they start on the Cambrian lines.

That was certainly the original plan alright. I've no idea if that has changed or not, but as I've said before - introducing them on the Cambrian is going to take a lot of careful planning.

Hopefully there'll be a few 175/0s running in double formation on the Manchester services once they're cascaded from North Wales. Most of the 3-car sets will be needed for directly replacing 170s.

I don't have access to all of the diagrams, but from the December timetable at the very least the services to Manchester from Cardiff at 1549 and 1749 will be formed of 2 X 175.

 

[EngFocus]

Any dates yet on when they will start on the Liverpool to Chester service?

Driver trainer who spoke to me on the first service said Wrexham-Bidston line will be next, starting from December, then Chester-Liverpool, buy possibly not be until early next year. But who knows, it could be earlier, as mentioned earlier it just seems TfW are overly cautious.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197011 out on the Conwy Valley line today.