UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bald Rick]

So I drive 190 miles home on the M6 & M40 using 78% of charge and because you don't like the answer I am somehow a liar?

I have just come back from a few weeks holiday. I dove 3500 miles in my EV in France, Andorra, Spain & Portugal trouble free cruising at 70, 75 and 80 mph with a fully loaded car, yes an EV. I drove 470 miles across France in a day with 3 charge stops and a few extra comfort breaks. I drove 300 miles over 6 mountain passes in the Pyrenees at up to 2408m with 2 charges. I drove 625 miles from France to Portugal with 4 charge stops and a few extra comfort stops. No I do not own a Tesla or a posh expensive EV.

London to Manchester is easy non stop, but yes I agree in the winter with low temperatures below about 7C it's not as easy but only a fool drives 4-5 hours without a break.

The 500 miles range non stop drive with 5 minute stops is a fantasy for fools. No normal does this even with 2 drivers. I did 625 miles in one go with an EV with sensible stops. An ICE would not have been quicker and honestly those distances in an ICE are beyond anyone's sanity whereas in the EV on 'auto-drive' it's a breeze.

Yes pre-planning is still required in Spain and was for Andorra but UK, France & Portugal it's no longer required.

It cost me 8p/mile on this trip and home charging costs me 1p/mile with Go / Solar.

I agree with everything you say! Although I am evidently a fool, having three times recently done 500 miles with one quick stop for petrol and call of nature. Not something I’m particularly proud of, though.

 

[reddragon]

I agree with everything you say! Although I am evidently a fool, having three times recently done 500 miles with one quick stop for petrol and call of nature. Not something I’m particularly proud of, though.

I have been a fool in the past and done the same thing. It was neither sensible, safe or healthy! Especially as at the time there were less motorways to use!

My ICE limit in a day was 502 miles, although once with 3 drivers we did 600 miles so getting out of an EV after 625 miles totally relaxed & not tired with a godsend! Challenge completed

 

[paul1609]

It's a real application, half installed, just waiting on the inverter which is arriving today (or so I'm promised).
It's a grid-parallel inverter rated at 5.5kW continuous but can peak at 11kW for 10 seconds. It looks after itself so you don't need to worry about it. There's a current monitor on the main supply into the house, and the inverter modulates its output to keep that at zero (except when charging the batteries from grid, of course). If the demand is more than the inverter or batteries can provide, the balance is made up with grid power. It won't blow itself up because the fridge starts at the same time as the kettle and microwave are running.

I'm using 3 5kWh batteries in parallel. Each battery can charge/discharge at 5kW, so they are going to have an easy life, even at peak loads. Again, each has a battery management system talking to the inverter - if it asks for more than they can do they just won't do it

So youve invested circa £12k on the hope that price differentials continue I guess?

 

[Bald Rick]

I have been a fool in the past and done the same thing. It was neither sensible, safe or healthy! Especially as at the time there were less motorways to use!

My ICE limit in a day was 502 miles, although once with 3 drivers we did 600 miles so getting out of an EV after 625 miles totally relaxed & not tired with a godsend! Challenge completed

My one day limit is into 4 figures with multiple drivers, one day 600+ (with a couple of mountains climbed on foot en route)

 

[trebor79]

So youve invested circa £12k on the hope that price differentials continue I guess?

£7k, but yes. I think they will continue because:
1. There's more wind coming online in the next few years. The differential deals have at their root a value transfer as if you shift load to periods of low demand, you avoid paying curtailment fees to wind and other demand-insensitive sources.
2. Grid scale battery storage is being put in - people investing tens of millions on the same premise - that there will be arbitrage between peak and off peak power prices long into the future. These guys have done due diligence.

It might move to a more dynamic model where the cheap periods change every day rather than being at fixed times, but that's no issue.

If the worst comes to the worst I stick some solar panels on the roof and plug them into the inverter. at 7.5p solar panels don't pay. 40p or more they do.

 

[paul1609]

So I drive 190 miles home on the M6 & M40 using 78% of charge and because you don't like the answer I am somehow a liar?

I have just come back from a few weeks holiday. I dove 3500 miles in my EV in France, Andorra, Spain & Portugal trouble free cruising at 70, 75 and 80 mph with a fully loaded car, yes an EV. I drove 470 miles across France in a day with 3 charge stops and a few extra comfort breaks. I drove 300 miles over 6 mountain passes in the Pyrenees at up to 2408m with 2 charges. I drove 625 miles from France to Portugal with 4 charge stops and a few extra comfort stops. No I do not own a Tesla or a posh expensive EV.

London to Manchester is easy non stop, but yes I agree in the winter with low temperatures below about 7C it's not as easy but only a fool drives 4-5 hours without a break.

The 500 miles range non stop drive with 5 minute stops is a fantasy for fools. No normal does this even with 2 drivers. I did 625 miles in one go with an EV with sensible stops. An ICE would not have been quicker and honestly those distances in an ICE are beyond anyone's sanity whereas in the EV on 'auto-drive' it's a breeze.

Yes pre-planning is still required in Spain and was for Andorra but UK, France & Portugal it's no longer required.

It cost me 8p/mile on this trip and home charging costs me 1p/mile with Go / Solar.

I think its a case of courses for horses I regularly commuted from Kent to Garelochead 509 miles without refuelling or much stress tbh. Normal trip would be around 10 hours with 2 stops, favourite in fair weather would be a 5 mile walk along the river Swale just off the A66. Dont think that would have been practical with an EV as I dont use motorway service areas. Away trips to football probably easier with an ice. Long distant leisure road trip to the outer hebrides in May would have been easily achievable with an EV car but I took my motorbike instead as its more fun and ev motorcycles are rubbish.

 

[reddragon]

I think its a case of courses for horses I regularly commuted from Kent to Garelochead 509 miles without refuelling or much stress tbh. Normal trip would be around 10 hours with 2 stops, favourite in fair weather would be a 5 mile walk along the river Swale just off the A66. Dont think that would have been practical with an EV as I dont use motorway service areas. Away trips to football probably easier with an ice. Long distant leisure road trip to the outer hebrides in May would have been easily achievable with an EV car but I took my motorbike instead as its more fun and ev motorcycles are rubbish.

Zapmap says 9 hours with 3 or 4 charge stops for an EV

 

[paul1609]

Zapmap says 9 hours with 3 or 4 charge stops for an EV

My home address is TN30 7PA, destination is Garelochead argyll where does it suggest I stop?

 

[reddragon]

My home address is TN30 7PA, destination is Garelochead argyll where does it suggest I stop?

Warwick, Wigan, Gretna, 8h50 mins, 515 miles

 

[Eyersey468]

I agree with your thinking, The year when production and sale of new straight-IC engine cars will cease in the UK is 2030, I think 2030 is the newest announcement by Big Brother. The Green Light for 2030 , where did it come from? How was it derived?
A result of deep analysis by scientists and engineers? Expert practioners of EV technology with a timeline for progress in battery development? Feasibilty of supply of raw materials for battery manufacture and costs? I have my doubts, more likely a nice round figure plucked from the Ether by Politicians.
I think it is very foolish to tarnish all IC cars big or small with a blanket ban, for the years 2030 onwards, the engineers are capable of designing cars IC- engine capable of low pollution and high efficiency, unfortunately they are not the cars Politicians ever set foot in.

I have my suspicions too that the 2030 date was plucked out of thin air without any feasibility study.

 

[AM9]

I have my suspicions too that the 2030 date was plucked out of thin air without any feasibility study.

As the CO2 contribution from road traffic is a significant part of the total in the UK, it is necessary for it to be reduced as much as possible. Of course it will be a difficult target to meet, but by no means impossible. Leaving it to the oil companies and motor manufacturers to change when they felt comfortable to would achieve nothing and there would still be massive CO2 vehicle sales by the national net zero date that many countries signed up to, i.e. 2050.

 

[paul1609]

I

Warwick, Wigan, Gretna, 8h50 mins, 515 miles

The M40/M6 route is actually 15 miles further and longer time wise than the A1/A66 but given that Google Maps is currently estimating the M6 route as taking 9 h 30 mins non stop Zap map must be quoting the time for De Lorean EVs!
What is the EV time avoiding motorway service areas so I can do my country walks?

 

[reddragon]

I have my suspicions too that the 2030 date was plucked out of thin air without any feasibility study.

The 2030 date was a date pushed back from 2025 when the industry could have delivered 100% EVs to the UK. This was driven simply by their demands to maximise their profits on assets. Their initial case for 2035 faded so 2030 was brought in.

Norway have stuck to 2025 as have a few others with 2030 at the main end of 100% EV adoption in the EU with 2040 worldwide.

Phase-out of fossil fuel vehicles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wikipedia list - Places with planned fossil-fuel vehicle restrictions

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I

The M40/M6 route is actually 15 miles further and longer time wise than the A1/A66 but given that Google Maps is currently estimating the M6 route as taking 9 h 30 mins non stop Zap map must be quoting the time for De Lorean EVs!
What is the EV time avoiding motorway service areas so I can do my country walks?

Gretna & Warwick offer walks, MFG at Wigan does not. There are rural chargers, you'd have to find & choose them on Zap-map

 

[DC1989]

I think it's worth bearing in mind too that the dates are more for the car manufacturers rather consumers. 2029 may be the last year you can buy an ICE vehicle brand new officially but many (most?) car manufacturers would have long phased our ICE models by then

VW plan to be all electric in UK/Europe by 2026 I think, Ford 2026 too, Jaguar 2025 etc.

 

[reddragon]

I think it's worth bearing in mind too that the dates are more for the car manufacturers rather consumers. 2029 may be the last year you can buy an ICE vehicle brand new officially but many (most?) car manufacturers would have long phased our ICE models by then

VW plan to be all electric in UK/Europe by 2026 I think, Ford 2026 too, Jaguar 2025 etc.

Smart are already EV only, cannot find a list of phase outs by manufacturer by market

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's worth bearing in mind too that the dates are more for the car manufacturers rather consumers. 2029 may be the last year you can buy an ICE vehicle brand new officially but many (most?) car manufacturers would have long phased our ICE models by then

VW plan to be all electric in UK/Europe by 2026 I think, Ford 2026 too, Jaguar 2025 etc.

I wonder what effect this will have on the value of used ICEs, particularly petrols? Will scarcity make them expensive, or will everyone be sold on EVs? I'm half wondering the latter, i.e. that (as there's not an EV to perfectly suit me yet) a brand-new petrol-engined car (not diesel) might actually be a good investment in the next 6 months to a year, which it might be feasible to trade in for a used EV in 3-5 years' time with very little uplift?

 

[reddragon]

I wonder what effect this will have on the value of used ICEs, particularly petrols? Will scarcity make them expensive, or will everyone be sold on EVs? I'm half wondering the latter, i.e. that (as there's not an EV to perfectly suit me yet) a brand-new petrol-engined car (not diesel) might actually be a good investment in the next 6 months to a year, which it might be feasible to trade in for a used EV in 3-5 years' time with very little uplift?

There is a very simple but unknown balance between the 2 driven by supply versus demand and running costs.

The EV will win in the end but there maybe some points in time that the ICE could win

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a very simple but unknown balance between the 2 driven by supply versus demand and running costs.

The EV will win in the end but there maybe some points in time that the ICE could win

That's my thought. I'm starting to consider changing my car, but I've yet to see an EV that would perfectly suit me at an affordable price. So I am wondering whether I should go for one more petrol (either used for 3 years, or brand new for 5) before switching. I'm very much leaning that way.

 

[reddragon]

That's my thought. I'm starting to consider changing my car, but I've yet to see an EV that would perfectly suit me at an affordable price. So I am wondering whether I should go for one more petrol (either used for 3 years, or brand new for 5) before switching. I'm very much leaning that way.

The MGs offer excellent value for money but unless you have home charging the maths doesn't add up without free work / public charging.

If you do go ICE compare rates as manufacturers are reducing the resale values on ICEs and upping them on EVs

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MGs offer excellent value for money but unless you have home charging the maths doesn't add up without free work / public charging.

I've tried the MG5 estate and I only just fit. Will have to try the SUV. But I'm a bit wary of them so far - they're a Chinese manufacturer not well-established in Europe, and potential forthcoming conflicts (e.g. the near-inevitability of China invading Taiwan at some point in the next 20 years) could cause issues for parts availability by a Chinese-owned manufacturer. (This is different from a European manufacturer, as if there are issues with China they could relocate manufacturing elsewhere).

They're also very much at the cheap end, basically Dacia-level but with a classic British badge, and so I wonder about build quality long term.

If you do go ICE compare rates as manufacturers are reducing the resale values on ICEs and upping them on EVs

What do you mean by that, sorry? Manufacturers have no control over used sale prices as such; it's an open market and the market determines the price.

 

[johncrossley]

Smart are already EV only, cannot find a list of phase outs by manufacturer by market

Wasn't that just a way of effectively getting rid of the brand? Smart has lost the parent group billions. They are surely selling very few electric cars compared to the number of petrol cars they sold.

 

[reddragon]

I've tried the MG5 estate and I only just fit. Will have to try the SUV. But I'm a bit wary of them so far - they're a Chinese manufacturer not well-established in Europe, and potential forthcoming conflicts (e.g. the near-inevitability of China invading Taiwan at some point in the next 20 years) could cause issues for parts availability by a Chinese-owned manufacturer. (This is different from a European manufacturer, as if there are issues with China they could relocate manufacturing elsewhere).

They're also very much at the cheap end, basically Dacia-level but with a classic British badge, and so I wonder about build quality long term.



What do you mean by that, sorry? Manufacturers have no control over used sale prices as such; it's an open market and the market determines the price.

MG are SAIC and make more cars than most EU manufacturers. The main components used are also supplied by the same manufacturers to EU car manufacturers along will all the chips & IT. The Chinese car market dwarfs the European market. The new updated MG5 will surprise you and it's on the Astra estate platform redesigned for EV by British Engineers. The MG4 makes all segment competitors look poor in comparison as it's so good.

Forget brand loyalty, Chinese cars are now the best around which is why so many European manufacturers are manufacturing them in China & have a free trade deal with China for cars. The MG4 is £10k cheaper than the ID3 and better.

Most cars are sold on PCP deals. There's the purchase price and end of PCP price. The cost to you is the difference plus interest which is driven by the size of that gap & the interest rate charged. I got the MG5 on that basis with 0% interest. No ICE car could match that cost even before that much cheaper running costs!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2022 ==

This is useful - basically lots of tables summarising phase out by passenger, HGV, region & manufacturer.

Zero-emission vehicle phase-ins - International Council on Clean Transportation

theicct.org

 

[bspahh]

That's my thought. I'm starting to consider changing my car, but I've yet to see an EV that would perfectly suit me at an affordable price. So I am wondering whether I should go for one more petrol (either used for 3 years, or brand new for 5) before switching. I'm very much leaning that way.

Fleet News has a running costs calculator. These are the cheapest cars to run for 80,000 miles in 4 years, in various categories of car (their's not mine), for petrol, diesel, electric and hybrid power. The cost per mile includes fuel, depreciation, service maintenance and repair.

Small car
Petrol £13,860 24.73p Dacia Sandero Hatch 5Dr 1.0TCe Bi-Fuel 100 GPF SS €6 Expression P-LPG 23MY Diesel £21,655 34.90p Peugeot 208 Hatch 5Dr 1.5 BlueHDi 100 SS Active Premium 6Spd 22MY Electric £24,380 28.25p Fiat 500e Hatch 3Dr 0.0Electric 24kWh 95 Action Auto 22MY Hybrid £21,265 29.64p Toyota Yaris Hatch 5Dr 1.5h 116 SS Icon E-CVT 22MY[/FONT]

SUV and Crossover
Petrol £17,020 28.00p Dacia Duster SUV 2wd 1.0TCe Bi-Fuel 100 GPF SS €6 Expression P-LPG 6Spd 23MY Diesel £18,400 34.41p Dacia Duster SUV 2wd 1.5Blue dCi 115 DPFR SS €6 Expression 6Spd 23MY Electric £30,395 32.35p Hyundai KONA SUV 0.0Electric 39kWh 136 SE Connect Auto 23MY Hybrid £31,940 32.81p Renault Captur SUV 1.6E-TECH PHEV 9.8kWh 160 SS techno Auto6 22MY

Small family car
Petrol £19,875 33.59p Skoda Scala Hatch 5Dr 1.0TSI 95 GPF SS €6 SE 23MY Diesel £23,455 37.09p Citroen C4 Hatch 5Dr 1.5 BlueHDi 110 SS Sense 6Spd 22MY Electric £31,940 28.06p GWM ORA Funky Cat Hatch 5Dr 0.0Electric 48kWh 171 First Edition Auto 22MY Hybrid £30,745 32.98p Hyundai IONIQ Hatch 5Dr 1.6h-GDi PiH 8.9kWh 141 GPF SS €6 Premium DCT Auto6 21MY[/FONT]

Large family car
Petrol £28,605 43.81p Volkswagen Passat Saloon 1.5TSI EVO 150 GPF SS €6 SE Nav 6Spd 22MY Diesel £25,335 42.67p Ford Mondeo Hatch 5Dr 2.0 EcoBlu 150 SS Zetec Edition 6Spd 21.75MY Electric £41,595 44.35p Hyundai IONIQ 5 Hatch 5Dr 0.0Electric 58kWh 170 Premium Auto 23MY Hybrid £38,950 40.50p Volkswagen Passat Saloon 1.4TSI PiH 13kWh 218 GPF SS €6 GTE DSG Auto6 22MY

Premium family car
Petrol £26,730 43.84p MINI Clubman Cooper 1.5 136 GPF SS €6 Classic Premium Step Auto7 23MY Diesel £31,960 46.74p Jaguar XE Saloon 2.0d MHEV 204 DPFR SS €6 R-Dynamic S Auto8 23MY Electric £43,095 43.88p Polestar Polestar 2 Fastback 5Dr Single Motor 0.0Elec 69kWh 231 Standard Range Auto 23MY Hybrid £43,210 39.26p Mercedes-Benz CLA CLA250e Shooting Brake 1.3PiH 15.6kWh 218 SS AMG Line Prem 8G-DCT 23MY

Executive car
Petrol £41,195 56.41p DS Automobiles DS 9 Saloon 4dr 1.6 PureTech 225 SS Performance Line + EAT8 22MY Diesel £34,815 44.06p Jaguar XF Saloon 2.0d MHEV 204 DPFR SS €6 R-Dynamic S Auto8 23MY Electric £76,395 62.74p Mercedes-Benz EQE EQE 350+ Saloon 0.0E 91kWh 292 AMG Line Auto 22MY Hybrid £46,745 46.43p DS Automobiles DS 9 Saloon 4dr 1.6 E-T PHEV 11.9kWh 225 SS Performance Line + EAT8 22MY

 

[reddragon]

Excellent, concentrate on just cost per mile.

For a small family car I'd go for MG4 and its £6k cheaper & bigger than the Ora Cat. My MG5 is bigger inside than the IoniQ 5 and £10k cheaper too.

 

[johncrossley]

Are there any cheaper cars than the 500e including all costs over 4 years?

 

[reddragon]

Yes from that table the cheapest estate cars (only 1 is EV as only 1 EV is made)



Cheapest small family cars (all EVs)

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes from that table the cheapest estate cars (only 1 is EV as only 1 EV is made)

View attachment 123900

Cheapest small family cars (all EVs)

View attachment 123901

They're not cheap though you could buy a BMW 1 series for that

 

[reddragon]

They're not cheap though you could buy a BMW 1 series for that

Cheapest BMW 1 series is 52p/mile and is 32nd on the list

 

[Bletchleyite]

Excellent, concentrate on just cost per mile.

For a small family car I'd go for MG4 and its £6k cheaper & bigger than the Ora Cat. My MG5 is bigger inside than the IoniQ 5 and £10k cheaper too.

Cost per mile makes no sense as that isn't how people see cars. It's more like "membership fee plus marginal per mile". 20K miles is quite high, I probably do about half that, so I guess that swings more in favour of petrol.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me to see car leases priced per mile (probably with an exponential reduction for higher mileages) being offered in the market at some point, including charging.

 

[reddragon]

Cost per mile makes no sense as that isn't how people see cars. It's more like "membership fee plus marginal per mile".

If you want the best value car you need to know what it costs you per month or mile.

Otherwise you ger fooled into 'cheap' ICE cars that cost you more than an EV.

Simple maths, people need to change their mindset.