Combination season's east croydon to st pancras

[Ticket Man]

Hi everyone

I've got a season ticket from East Croydon to St Pancras routed "NOT UNDERGROUND"and I also have a monthly zone 1-3 oyster. Is it valid for me to get a train from East Croydon to Victoria and use the underground to St Pancras. A guard stopped me a few weeks back and said that I was off route but I was under the impression you could combine seasons if one of them was a travel card

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can use two or more seasons for one journey provided that together they cover the entire journey AND either, they are both zonal or the train stops where the tickets change over.

In my view, if the East Croydon (ECR) to St Pancras (STP) ticket is valid as far as Clapham Junction, provided the train stops there, the zonal ticket would be valid from that point onward. I can't think of a reason why it would not be valid to Clapham (and from there to London Bridge via Waterloo) off the top of my head.

 

[cuccir]

This was covered fairly recently here. The consensus seemed to be that the ticket allows you to go to a London Terminal and then you're on your own to travel on, as 'NOT Undergound' is not a routeing (see here) but a ticket restriction. So you can probably travel to Victoria and then use your oyster ticket to get to St Pancras. There were, however, some who disagreed and I can understand their argument: it is an interpretation that the 'NOT UNDERGROUND' ticket, by preventing you using the underground, is also preventing you from using routes which (if completed by train) would demand that you use the underground.

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edit


Ah yes, HHF is correct - I didn't notice the bit about the travelcard. Yes, the ticket is definitely valid to Clapham Junction, and then your Travelcard on your Oyster Card would kick in. However, the above description should also make it valid on services that don't stop at Clapham J.

 

[transportphoto]

I can not see a problem with it!

Aslong as you touch in at the point you go off your seasons route - then you should be fine as in affect you are finishing short!

 

[LexyBoy]

I can not see a problem with it!

Aslong as you touch in at the point you go off your seasons route - then you should be fine as in affect you are finishing short!

Ah yes, you must of course touch in when using your Travelcard, or you'll be breaking TfL's T&Cs

 

[transportphoto]

Ah yes, you must of course touch in when using your Travelcard, or you'll be breaking TfL's T&Cs

Sorry yep, no you don't need to touch in on TC's on oyster.

 

[LexyBoy]

Sorry yep, no you don't need to touch in on TC's on oyster.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic! You are supposed to touch in even with a TC - discussed at length in a recent thread. Of course hardly anyone does, and there's no penalty for not doing.

 

[Mojo]

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic! You are supposed to touch in even with a TC - discussed at length in a recent thread. Of course hardly anyone does, and there's no penalty for not doing.

However the requirement to touch in is only at the start of the journey. I'd argue that the journey starts at East Croydon and that there's nowhere to touch in on a 1-3 Travelcard there without being charged, so you don't need to.

 

[Caped Crusader]

Interesting question, not sure myself.
It comes down to the validity of the ECR-STP ticket on the 'via' Clapham Junction, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge to St Pancras route.
The ticket is a point to point ticket and not a London Terminals or a zonal ticket.
I am interested to hear the outcome as I was always of the opinion that the split point for validity on specific London Bridge/London Victoria tickets was at East Croydon.
Time to do some digging

 

[b0b]

Interesting question, not sure myself.
It comes down to the validity of the ECR-STP ticket on the 'via' Clapham Junction, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge to St Pancras route.

Valid to Clapham Junction via map LB:

Croydon Group to Streatham Group via Selhurst, to Clapham Junction to Waterloo -> Waterloo East, to London Bridge to Blackfriars to St Pancras.

I suspect your guard believes that "NOT UNDERGROUND" means FCC Thameslink services, and hence his misunderstanding.

 

[Ticket Man]

cheers guys, so its valid to Clapham junction then the 1-3 travel card kicks in and there's no penalty for not touching in. nice one

 

[southerner2174]

To be honest as a former guard on Southern, i think he probably forgot about the clapham to waterloo routing and probably thought you were going to try and use the season ticket at Victoria.
I remember plenty of times being at Victoria and passengers trying to use the St Pancras Not Underground ticket through the barriers only for them to be rejected and informed that they either go back to east croydon and catch a fcc train as they should have done or just be sold an extension to victoria, amazing not many fancied the option of going back to East Croydon.

 

[martinsh]

To be honest as a former guard on Southern, i think he probably forgot about the clapham to waterloo routing and probably thought you were going to try and use the season ticket at Victoria.
I remember plenty of times being at Victoria and passengers trying to use the St Pancras Not Underground ticket through the barriers only for them to be rejected and informed that they either go back to east croydon and catch a fcc train as they should have done or just be sold an extension to victoria, amazing not many fancied the option of going back to East Croydon.

But surely you should have told them to go back to Clapham Junction as per the discussion above ?

 

[b0b]

I've got a season ticket from East Croydon to St Pancras routed "NOT UNDERGROUND"and I also have a monthly zone 1-3 oyster.

A little off topic, but why do you have that combination rather than a zone 1-6 travelcard?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's a good point, I was thinking why have a ticket to St Pancras, when Victoria is cheaper.

 

[LexyBoy]

That's a good point, I was thinking why have a ticket to St Pancras, when Victoria is cheaper.

Can't check prices just now but I guess it's cheaper to use this combination if normally travelling to the City on Thameslink. St Pancras is cheaper than London Terminals on Thameslink IIRC. Bit suprising if this is the case as I'd not expect 2 tickets with so much overlap to be cheaper.

 

[RJ]

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic! You are supposed to touch in even with a TC - discussed at length in a recent thread. Of course hardly anyone does, and there's no penalty for not doing.

Who says there's no penalty for not doing so? If someone is caught without a ticket then it's shown that the person has consistently had a lot of incomplete journeys previously, it certainly wouldn't be overlooked.

 

[LexyBoy]

Who says there's no penalty for not doing so? If someone is caught without a ticket then it's shown that the person has consistently had a lot of incomplete journeys previously, it certainly wouldn't be overlooked.

Oh dear - I didn't mean to start this topic off again! I meant that there is no routine penalty (though of course one could be introduced) for not touching in with a TC, like there is with PAYG.

Certainly, a history of incomplete journeys could be used as evidence of repeated dodging if someone's caught with no ticket (especially if the journey involved is the same one).

 

[b0b]

Who says there's no penalty for not doing so? If someone is caught without a ticket then it's shown that the person has consistently had a lot of incomplete journeys previously, it certainly wouldn't be overlooked.

How do you touch in on a fast East Croydon to Victoria train, which the OP is entitled to use without leaving the train, with his combination of tickets?

Or are you saying that the media a ticket is on affects its validity? I don't see that in the NRCOC.

 

[LexyBoy]

Or are you saying that the media a ticket is on affects its validity? I don't see that in the NRCOC.

This is the crux of the argument I believe. I suppose it depends on whose product the Travelcard is - if it's TfL's then do the NR CoC still apply, or is it TfL's? I would think that for a journey on National Rail, it should be the NRCoC. But Oyster is a TfL product (if product is the right word).

I think my brain is melting a bit hock:

 

[RJ]

How do you touch in on a fast East Croydon to Victoria train, which the OP is entitled to use without leaving the train, with his combination of tickets?

Or are you saying that the media a ticket is on affects its validity? I don't see that in the NRCOC.

If you're using an Oyster Card then the TfL CoC takes precedence over the NRCoC, where there is a conflict. You may wish to re-read Conditions 1c and 9 of the NRCoC. It's also stated here.

 

[LexyBoy]

So the answer seems to be to get out at CLJ, walk through to the exit or the LO platform, touch in, walk back, get back on the train.

Of course, the alternative would be to get a paper travelcard

(Or do as 90% of Oyster TC holders do, and don't worry about touching in or out).

 

[MikeWh]

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic! You are supposed to touch in even with a TC - discussed at length in a recent thread. Of course hardly anyone does, and there's no penalty for not doing.

Who says there's no penalty for not doing so? If someone is caught without a ticket then it's shown that the person has consistently had a lot of incomplete journeys previously, it certainly wouldn't be overlooked.

Well I'd like to see where in the TfL CoC it describes what the penalty is for not touching in or out while in the zones covered by a stored travelcard. If you are travelling with an Oyster card with a travelcard stored on it within the zones covered by that travelcard then you are hardly travelling without a ticket. As far as I know, the only place where you have to touch in with a valid travelcard is when boarding a bus. Oh, and if you board a tram and want to exit at Wimbledon without acquiring an incomplete rail journey, of course.

 

[b0b]

So it looks like the conclusion is that you have less rights with an Oyster issued ticket than a paper ticket;

brilliant!

 

[Ticket Man]

A little off topic, but why do you have that combination rather than a zone 1-6 travelcard?

ive got the 1-3 as i visit the missus in balham 2 - 3 times a week and use priv season from east croydon