Season ticket pricing

[oversteer]

I commute from Gerrards Cross to High Wycombe each day. £6.70 return

A season ticket for the week is £38.50, making it a bit cheaper for me to just buy a return each day. Monthly is £148, so significantly cheaper to get dailies, especially considering holidays, days off etc.

I always thought that a season ticket was approx. 3-4x the daily rate, and looking at Marylebone tickets from Gerrards Cross this multiplier is about right (£15pd vs £53pw) .. but in the other direction you don't get much discount.

I feel guilty for the trees, printing all those tickets* but why is it priced like this?



* at least the mobile scanners will be working soon

 

[yorkie]

A season ticket for the week is £38.50, making it a bit cheaper for me to just buy a return each day. Monthly is £148, so significantly cheaper to get dailies, especially considering holidays, days off etc.

But if you plan ahead, you can avoid having the season ticket on bank holidays and annual leave?

For example buy a season from today (21 Feb 11) to 21 April 11 (2m1d) then buy 3 daily tickets on 26, 27 and 28 April, and then start the next season ticket from 3 May 11 until 3 June 11 (1m1d)... that means you'd not be paying for the ticket during the bank holidays in April. If you can also plan annual leave in the same way in advance you'll be onto a winner...

I have to admit that the season ticket does seem very expensive for this line though.

Trail Operating Companies (TOCs) do often seem to price their tickets in such a way that the more individual tickets you have to print, the less money you pay. This is because the rail industry (as in the people at the top, who make the decisions, not the people on the ground...) enjoys being wasteful, inefficient and thinks that it can continue to do so forever with impunity. Oh, and because ATOC, the organisation representing all TOCs, treats customers with such contempt that one of their Directors publicly stated that there is "no economic justification" for one of their main products, the Off Peak Return, because customers should be "going to the theatre or buying CDs" instead. The rail industry is quite unique in that respect, it wouldn't happen in any other industry.

Welcome to the forum, take a look at the various threads here to see how utterly bonkers rail ticketing is. That said, I don't really want it to change too much as I don't want them to remove the loopholes and if we demanded genuine simplification, you can guarantee they would put the cheaper prices up, not reduce the more expensive ones!

 

[radamfi]

There are some weekly season tickets that cost more than buying 6 Anytime Day Returns.

Guildford to Three Bridges

Anytime Day Return
£11.60

Seven Day Season
£74.20

 

[yorkie]

I think what may be happening in some of these examples is that the Season price is based on people going in the peak flow direction at peak time. However the day return price is not.

 

[wibble]

Trail Operating Companies (TOCs) do often seem to price their tickets in such a way that the more individual tickets you have to print, the less money you pay. This is because the rail industry (as in the people at the top, who make the decisions, not the people on the ground...) enjoys being wasteful, inefficient and thinks that it can continue to do so forever with impunity. Oh, and because ATOC, the organisation representing all TOCs, treats customers with such contempt that one of their Directors publicly stated that there is "no economic justification" for one of their main products, the Off Peak Return, because customers should be "going to the theatre or buying CDs" instead. The rail industry is quite unique in that respect, it wouldn't happen in any other industry.

This isn't actually Chiltern's fault - there are loads of examples where individual daily tickets are cheaper than the season ticket in the LSE area.

British Rail moved towards market-led pricing well before privatisation and led to higher prices on journeys towards London where demand is generally greater. Season ticket prices will be based on the higher priced SDR journey (i.e. High Wycombe - Gerrards Cross). A weekly season from High Wycombe - Gerrards Cross is equivalent of 4.2 SDRs. The advantage of the season is that it will give you unlimited travel and break of journey between the two stations until the season ticket expires - you won't get this with an SDR. (The benefit is there, even if you never use it.)

As season tickets are valid in both directions, there would be little point in offering a lower priced season ticket to High Wycombe as everyone would buy this instead.

Unfortunately, this does mean that you may have to buy individual daily tickets. To save a bit of time, you could book them online and then collect them from the TVM at the station.

ATOC are not involved with any aspect of ticket pricing as this is the responsibility of individual TOCs.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think what may be happening in some of these examples is that the Season price is based on people going in the peak flow direction at peak time. However the day return price is not.

Indeed:

GER - HWY  £6.70 SOR
HWY - GER  £9.20 SOR

 

[MikeWh]

ATOC are not involved with any aspect of ticket pricing as this is the responsibility of individual TOCs.

Not quite true. ATOC are involved in the pricing of fares within the London zones to avoid the seperate TOCs being charged with collusion because they set the same prices.

 

[yorkie]

wibble, I was criticising the industry in general, not blaming any specific TOC for any specific pricing policy. I wasn't blaming privatisation, and I am not against 'market based pricing' (providing it is done sensibly and within reason) either!

However the solution is within Chiltern's control (e.g. an Off Peak season that is valid at all times except not on trains heading away from London before, say, 0930) but they choose not to implement it. In effect, the market based pricing only exists for day customers, not commuters.

The excuses don't really wash, sounds like a defensive list of reasons why certain parties (who have the power to find a solution) are not to blame for it (and I'm not disagreeing with them).

 

[button_boxer]

Indeed:

GER - HWY  £6.70 SOR
HWY - GER  £9.20 SOR

So if those are SORs (i.e. period returns) presumably the canny London-bound commuter will actually buy the away-from-London ticket, use the outward half to go home and the return half to go to work the next day...

 

[yorkie]

So if those are SORs (i.e. period returns) presumably the canny London-bound commuter will actually buy the away-from-London ticket, use the outward half to go home and the return half to go to work the next day...

No, Lexyboy made a typo. They're SDRs (Anytime Day Returns) not SORs (Anytime Returns). Otherwise, your plan would have worked!

 

[LexyBoy]

No, Lexyboy made a typo. They're SDRs (Anytime Day Returns) not SORs (Anytime Returns). Otherwise, your plan would have worked!

Whoops, someone's not thinking!

 

[oversteer]

That explains it, thanks all.

It never actually occured to me that a season ticket works for a return journey in either direction (as opposed to a return journey from your 'home' station)

 

[yorkie]

That explains it, thanks all.

It never actually occured to me that a season ticket works for a return journey in either direction (as opposed to a return journey from your 'home' station)

Yes and intermediate journeys. If you get a longer distance season where there are more than one permitted route between the stations, the opportunities can be quite immense. e.g. a York to Sheffield season would cover a huge number of lines including the Harrogate line, York to Huddersfield, Penistone line, York-Doncaster-Sheffield, the Pontefract & Wakefield lines.... basically most of West and South Yorkshire would be covered!

 

[oversteer]

Meanwhile the Chiltern commuter to London gets the choice of one line, and a coach at weekends

 

[wibble]

Not quite true. ATOC are involved in the pricing of fares within the London zones to avoid the seperate TOCs being charged with collusion because they set the same prices.

Actually, that's not true. ATOC manage the fares involving National Rail journeys in the fares system but TOCs decide the fares between them.

 

[yorkie]

Actually, that's not true. ATOC manage the fares involving National Rail journeys in the fares system but TOCs decide the fares between them.

At a meeting organised by ATOC? Given that ATOC is "Britain's rail companies working together" isn't this just semantics?

What's your argument again as I've lost track of it, is it that BR is to blame for silly fares and the TOCs are powerless to do anything or did I get the wrong impression?

 

[barrykas]

What's your argument again as I've lost track of it, is it that BR is to blame for silly fares and the TOCs are powerless to do anything or did I get the wrong impression?

BR are to blame for some fares related silliness, such as Off-Peak Day Returns being only 5p or 10p more than the Single, and Off-Peak Returns being 50p (where the Single is £29 or less) or £1 (other cases) dearer than the Single, and that perennial favourite, a general lack of Anytime Returns in the NSE area, other than the airport runs.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[wibble]

At a meeting organised by ATOC? Given that ATOC is "Britain's rail companies working together" isn't this just semantics?

It was the fact that he TOCs are permitted to discuss Zonal fares in London and it's not 'collusion'.

What's your argument again as I've lost track of it, is it that BR is to blame for silly fares and the TOCs are powerless to do anything or did I get the wrong impression?

My argument is that TOCs have inherited a lot of pricing policy from BR.

The TOCs may have limited power in what they do to tackle this issue, especially if the contra-peak journey is a regulated fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BR are to blame for some fares related silliness, such as Off-Peak Day Returns being only 5p or 10p more than the Single, and Off-Peak Returns being 50p (where the Single is £29 or less) or £1 (other cases) dearer than the Single, and that perennial favourite, a general lack of Anytime Returns in the NSE area, other than the airport runs.

Cheers,

Barry

The Single/Return price differential is a difficult one to resolve. Should the Return fare be twice the Single, or should the Single be half the Return fare?

TOCs might be reluctant to discuss this as their franchise models will be based on the existing fares structure. Changing the relationship between the Single/Return ticket is likely to affect the franchisee's income and any premium paid to, or revenue supported received from, the government.

The SOR tickets were withdrawn (I think in the days of Network SouthEast) as there was a fraud problem. As the Outward portion of an SOR ticket was valid for a calendar month, people would buy them once a month knowing that there was little chance of their ticket being checked in the peak. They would keep using it until it was eventually checked by someone.

 

[yorkie]

I don't deny BR are to blame for those factors.

But really the TOCs could sort it out if they wanted to. So it's better to admit they don't want to than pretend they can't. Unless they think we're stupid.

In London they were forced to price singles at half the cost of a return. I suspect the TOCs know that they will be forced to do the same nationwide. It may take a couple of years, it may take 10 years, it may even take longer! But it will happen, and has to happen if the whole country is going to be using an Oyster-like smart card product.

I suspect that, in the knowledge of this, they are deliberately waiting so that they can demand compensation from the DfT if they are forced to change their pricing model. They will of course moan at the lost revenue from the few mugs who buy such overpriced tickets, while ignoring the obvious benefits, such as much less faffing about with excesses.

The biggest problem for the passenger with smart card ticketing is that under the present pricing structure, you'd have to hop off and back on the train every other station (at least on Cross Country services!) in order to avoid being ripped off (e.g. for York to Birmingham you'd need to hop off & on at Sheffield and Derby to avoid being defrauded into paying the hugely inflated York to Birmingham fare !)

You have to give a bit of credit to FGW, as their single tickets are more realstically priced compared to returns now. Grand Central and Hull Trains are not too bad either. If FGW can do it, any TOC can.

 

[reb0118]

The biggest problem for the passenger with smart card ticketing is that under the present pricing structure, you'd have to hop off and back on the train every other station (at least on Cross Country services!) in order to avoid being ripped off (e.g. for York to Birmingham you'd need to hop off & on at Sheffield and Derby to avoid being defrauded into paying the hugely inflated York to Birmingham fare !)

If nationwide smart-card technology was to be implemented then we would have to move to strict £/distance pricing system. Peak/Off-Peak could be factored in and possibly a supplement for any premium services.

 

[radamfi]

The nationwide introduction of smartcards in the Netherlands has led to singles becoming half the price of a day return. However, Day Returns only gave about 10% discount on 2 singles so it wasn't that much of a big deal compared to doing something similar in GB.

 

[wibble]

Yorkie: I don't think the problem is big enough for the TOCs to bother doing anything about it!

reb0118 / radamfi: I agree that we may move back to pence/mile pricing but smartcards will be superceded by EMV for pay as you go style journeys... Oyster won't be around for much longer in its current format!

 

[swt_passenger]

Yorkie: I don't think the problem is big enough for the TOCs to bother doing anything about it!

reb0118 / radamfi: I agree that we may move back to pence/mile pricing but smartcards will be superceded by EMV for pay as you go style journeys... Oyster won't be around for much longer in its current format!

As I've suggested before I don't think there's much likelihood of any form of PAYG outside discrete urban areas.

Oyster style PAYG already has known issues in the London area where outlying stations are unmanned and unbarriered. I doubt EMV contactless payment would make a system any more fraud resistant - unless you know differently of course...

 

[wibble]

Oyster style PAYG already has known issues in the London area where outlying stations are unmanned and unbarriered. I doubt EMV contactless payment would make a system any more fraud resistant - unless you know differently of course...

There's only really an issue where people don't touch in and touch out at an ungated station and isn't any different from people not buying at ticket on National Rail services.

If someone only touches in or only touches out, they'll get charged a minimum fare on Oyster. The same sort of thing could be applied to EMV - and don't forget that EMV could be linked to your bank account.....

 

[Deerfold]

If someone only touches in or only touches out, they'll get charged a minimum fare on Oyster. The same sort of thing could be applied to EMV - and don't forget that EMV could be linked to your bank account.....

Given the occasional horror story that's quite scary. What sort of minimum fare would you be talking about for a nationwide scheme?

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the occasional horror story that's quite scary. What sort of minimum fare would you be talking about for a nationwide scheme?

It would have to be a max cash fare of a few hundred quid wouldn't it? You might be touching in for a First Class all line rover - how could a dumb barrier know what your intention is?

I'm not at all sure either how an EMV card system would work. Would it still charge a max cash fare and refund afterwards? If it doesn't, you'd have to define the journey at the start - which puts paid to the major advantage of an Oyster style PAYG system.

If you are 'en route' how do railway staff work out if or where you touched in? Does the ticket barrier write the origin station and time onto your credit/debit card?

 

[wibble]

Given the occasional horror story that's quite scary. What sort of minimum fare would you be talking about for a nationwide scheme?

EMV will affect the some of the rules around ticketing use etc. I suspect people would have to 'opt in' to EMV on National Rail so people are aware of what could happen to them if the don't touch in/out on their journey.

As swt_passenger says, you could be charged a very high fare; it could be a Penalty Fare; it could be the average Anytime Single fare from the station you touch in or out from.... Who knows!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you are 'en route' how do railway staff work out if or where you touched in? Does the ticket barrier write the origin station and time onto your credit/debit card?

As most ticket checking staff have Avantix Mobile, I'm sure they'll be another upgrade for the hardware. Other staff would be issued with a hand-held reader, similar to the Handy 440 already available for Oyster.

The origin station and time should be written to the card in the same way as for Oyster. If you haven't touched in and you get your ticket checked, you could easily be charged a Penalty Fare or be 'sold' a ticket for your journey with a supplementary charge added.

 

[yorkie]

Given the occasional horror story that's quite scary. What sort of minimum fare would you be talking about for a nationwide scheme?

Wick to Penzance would be £117.50 (based on half the return).

If nationwide smart-card technology was to be implemented then we would have to move to strict £/distance pricing system. Peak/Off-Peak could be factored in and possibly a supplement for any premium services.

No need for it to be strictly distance based. No reason why the whole Whitby line couldn't be shoved into a really cheap zone for example. Distance based pricing doesn't work.

One thing that would have to be considered is that with Oyster you are penalised for going through central London. But on National Rail, you are penalised for going on 'Cross Country' journeys that avoid London! So I am unsure how that would work. No doubt XC would throw a wobbler if they were prevented from charging a premium to the elderly/disabled/people who just don't like changing trains who avoid London.

 

[island]

I rather doubt ITSO single journeys will operate on a fully PAYG basis. Far more likely is that people will still need to buy a ticket and load it as a "product" to their smartcard. The advantage will be they can buy it online or by telesales and it will be loaded to the card automatically on touch-in.

 

[radamfi]

Given the occasional horror story that's quite scary. What sort of minimum fare would you be talking about for a nationwide scheme?

Dutch Railways have set the minimum fare at 20 euros. You can't enter the system without having that much on your card. To put it into perspective, the maximum single is 23.50 euros and a day ticket is 47 euros. Although you are unlikely to have travelled very far (say about 10 euros worth of trip) without having your ticket checked.