Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Watershed]

They’ve done a terrible job of making the public aware of it then!

It's been on their website since the whole thing started, on the same page where the daily list of "10pm the night before" cancellations is uploaded.

But yes, not very well advertised as you say - particularly with JourneyCheck cancellation advice (and posts on social media) often not advertising the possibility of using of alternative operators' services under the arrangements.

 

[nr758123]

It's been on their website since the whole thing started, on the same page where the daily list of "10pm the night before" cancellations is uploaded.

But yes, not very well advertised as you say - particularly with JourneyCheck cancellation advice (and posts on social media) often not advertising the possibility of using of alternative operators' services under the arrangements.

It also fails to mention ticket acceptance on Metrolink or bus operators.

 

[Watershed]

It also fails to mention ticket acceptance on Metrolink or bus operators.

I don't think there is standing ticket acceptance on those. It seems only to be in place during exceptional incidents (strike days etc.).

 

[nr758123]

Sunderland playing an away league fixture at Huddersfield tonight. The 22:17 TPE to Newcastle is showing as cancelled. The only alternative is the 22:46 LNER, presumably there’ll be ticket acceptance on the 22:46? Unless TPE are gonna put on a replacement bus or shell out for taxis…..

I don't know about getting back from Huddersfield to the North East after a match which finished at around 9.30, but even getting back from the match to Slaithwaite would have involved a rail replacement bus with the last train being at 2037.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

I don't think there is standing ticket acceptance on those. It seems only to be in place during exceptional incidents (strike days etc.).

Around here, the exceptional days are the ones where something resembling the full evening service runs.

 

[Iskra]

Although mainly about Avanti, TP also get a mention in this article, but senior leadership seem less confident and promising about any improvement when it comes to TP.

While an acknowledgment that things aren’t right is welcome; some concrete actions about how the situation is actually going to be improved would be preferable.

Avanti West Coast: Rail boss apologises for recent disruption

Avanti West Coast and Transpennine Express have been criticised for reduced timetables and cancellations.

www.bbc.co.uk

(I can’t easily copy and paste the full article as per forum rules due to being on my mobile, apologies).

 

[yorksrob]

Another festival of short forms on TPE today.

One wonders what's happened to all those new trains the taxpayer has subsidised.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Another festival of short forms on TPE today.

One wonders what's happened to all those new trains the taxpayer has subsidised.

This is what gets me, they run less services with way more units than the franchise planned yet still short form. Just how can they be that incompetent.

 

[yorksrob]

This is what gets me, they run less services with way more units than the franchise planned yet still short form. Just how can they be that incompetent.

It seems to be on TPE that if one train is short formed, the next one will be as well for some reason

 

[Watershed]

This is what gets me, they run less services with way more units than the franchise planned yet still short form. Just how can they be that incompetent.

It's almost all down to driver shortages - resulting in units not coming off depots, not being shunted/attached, etc. which then requires other services to be shortformed to avoid cancellations. Unit failures are quite rare.

Obviously how that driver shortage has arisen is another matter, but given the current circumstances the only thing that would really improve reliability would be an emergency timetable. Which is well overdue IMHO!

 

[mike57]

It's almost all down to driver shortages - resulting in units not coming off depots, not being shunted/attached, etc. which then requires other services to be shortformed to avoid cancellations. Unit failures are quite rare.

In which case why dont they marshall the 185s into semi permanent 6 car sets and only split them if there is a fault that cant be covered by another unit. Taking the timetable they should be running against what they actually run they have plenty of units as @YorkshireBear has pointed out.

There are also 68s and Mk5s parked up at Scarborough during the day, apart from the ones they are using on the York Scarborough shuttle.

I think TPE have given up, and are just going to continue milking the taxpayer and not offering a service to their customers until somebody puts a stop to it. I have seen a lot of excuses made for them on here, DfT micromanaging etc. but at least some of the issues are caused by their own incompetance. Splitting the Newcastle Liverpool services over several crews is a good example, it reduces resiliance. What really annoys me is that I bet senior staff are still getting their bonuses and shareholders are still getting a dividend even although the (non) service provided is almost unuseable. You certainly cannot plan a business day given the current state of affairs.

 

[Watershed]

In which case why dont they marshall the 185s into semi permanent 6 car sets and only split them if there is a fault that cant be covered by another unit

Quite a few services couldn't be run using 6 car sets due to platforming constraints (all Manchester-Huddersfield/Huddersfield-Leeds services, most Leeds-Scarboroughs as well as a few others).

They also won't just be coupling and uncoupling sets for fun. As with most operators, it will be done to get them in the right position for unit cycling, maintenance, stabling etc.

Ultimately, if you have 4 double sets due off a given depot, but only enough drivers for 2 of the moves, would you rather that 2 whole circuits are cancelled (probably meaning 10/15 cancellations) or that all are shortformed?

It's a question of the 'least worst' outcome, not the ideal one.

There are also 68s and Mk5s parked up at Scarborough during the day, apart from the ones they are using on the York Scarborough shuttle.

But nowhere enough drivers that sign them to make much use of them.

I think TPE have given up

The service provided certainly might give that impression, and certainly morale is likely to be low. But I really doubt that's the case on a corporate level.

and are just going to continue milking the taxpayer

How so? The taxpayer pays for their operating costs, plus a (relatively) small margin.

and not offering a service to their customers until somebody puts a stop to it.

How would a 'stop' be put to the chaos, when the people with the purse-strings are the ones that are quite happy for the current situation to go on as it is? Moving over to an OLR won't fix very much, if anything - see the problems that Northern have been having.

I have seen a lot of excuses made for them on here, DfT micromanaging etc. but at least some of the issues are caused by their own incompetance. Splitting the Newcastle Liverpool services over several crews is a good example, it reduces resiliance.

Some of the issues are certainly caused by past errors, but lamenting that doesn't fix the situation. Given the resources available, I fail to see how an OLR could do much better.

What really annoys me is that I bet senior staff are still getting their bonuses

Bonuses have completely disappeared in "franchised" rail, other than at the very highest levels (i.e. Director/CEO, where you can be sure that some of the factors will include punctuality/reliability - so bonuses will be reduced if not paused entirely).

and shareholders are still getting a dividend even although the (non) service provided is almost unuseable.

Dividends come from the performance of the group as a whole. Parts such as GWR, SWR, Lumo and Hull Trains are doing (relatively) well, and that's aside from the bus operations. The contribution made by TPE margins is very small indeed.

You certainly cannot plan a business day given the current state of affairs.

Unfortunately this is very true.

 

[driverd]

Their tickets should be refunded, yes. I don’t think TOCs (really meaning the government) should necessarily be expected to fund alternatives, especially when many of the tickets purchased will be low cost advances...

Why do you generally show so little regard for customers in your replies? I'm all in favour of balance here but you're always so TOC sided its painful.

Let's take a look from the customers perspective. In good faith, at 2 months notice, you've booked train tickets, you've booked a few nights in a hotel, tickets to an event/theatre etc that may not be refundable. With less than a weeks notice, the train operator pulls your service and basically says "sorry mate, here's your refund, you're not our problem anymore". To me (and probably the rest of the forum except you), there's a heck of a lot wrong with this. Predominantly because, as you put it:

the alternatives used may be many times more expensive.

Beyond giving a refund, reasonable ticket acceptance or allowing travel another day, absolutely - it’s the only practical solution. I’m afraid ranting on here and making impractical demands won’t change that.

Except it isn't. The practical solution is to sort this mess, that's been 2 years in the making, out. It's remarkable that other TOCs, namely northern, that have dealt with similar introduction of new trains, similar covid issues, similar levels of training demand and arguably a set of much more complex train crew manning agreements, yet have managed to deal with this just fine.

People need to stop excusing the operators - it's totally unjustifiable - alternatives are available, from RRBs, to taxis to strengthening. The train crew (especially on a Sunday) are there, its the utility of them that's the problem. The DfT/First group approach being taken of late is in total contrast to how it was 3/4 years ago, when TPE in particular would move hell and high water to try and get the customer there. By justifying this behaviour you simply normalise it and people, rightly, should be ranting and quite outraged by it.

 

[Iskra]

Quite a few services couldn't be run using 6 car sets due to platforming constraints (all Manchester-Huddersfield/Huddersfield-Leeds services, most Leeds-Scarboroughs as well as a few others).

They also won't just be coupling and uncoupling sets for fun. As with most operators, it will be done to get them in the right position for unit cycling, maintenance, stabling etc.

Ultimately, if you have 4 double sets due off a given depot, but only enough drivers for 2 of the moves, would you rather that 2 whole circuits are cancelled (probably meaning 10/15 cancellations) or that all are shortformed?

It's a question of the 'least worst' outcome, not the ideal one.


But nowhere enough drivers that sign them to make much use of them.


The service provided certainly might give that impression, and certainly morale is likely to be low. But I really doubt that's the case on a corporate level.


How so? The taxpayer pays for their operating costs, plus a (relatively) small margin.


How would a 'stop' be put to the chaos, when the people with the purse-strings are the ones that are quite happy for the current situation to go on as it is? Moving over to an OLR won't fix very much, if anything - see the problems that Northern have been having.


Some of the issues are certainly caused by past errors, but lamenting that doesn't fix the situation. Given the resources available, I fail to see how an OLR could do much better.


Bonuses have completely disappeared in "franchised" rail, other than at the very highest levels (i.e. Director/CEO, where you can be sure that some of the factors will include punctuality/reliability - so bonuses will be reduced if not paused entirely).


Dividends come from the performance of the group as a whole. Parts such as GWR, SWR, Lumo and Hull Trains are doing (relatively) well, and that's aside from the bus operations. The contribution made by TPE margins is very small indeed.


Unfortunately this is very true.

Is there a plan to get out of this mess? As I am sure you are aware the railway of the North is a shambles at the moment (not all TP’s doing). But, what’s worse is lack of any ‘light at the end of the tunnel.’

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==

Why do you always show absolutely no regard for customers, what so ever, in your replies? I'm all in favour of balance here but you're always so TOC sided its painful.

Let's take a look from the customers perspective. In good faith, at 2 months notice, you've booked train tickets, you've booked a few nights in a hotel, tickets to an event/theatre etc that may not be refundable. With less than a weeks notice, the train operator pulls your service and basically says "sorry mate, here's your refund, you're not our problem anymore". To me (and probably the rest of the forum except you), there's a heck of a lot wrong with this. Predominantly because, as you put it:





Except it isn't. The practical solution is to sort this mess, that's been 2 years in the making, out. It's remarkable that other TOCs, namely northern, that have dealt with similar introduction of new trains, similar covid issues, similar levels of training demand and arguably a set of much more complex train crew manning agreements, yet have managed to deal with this just fine.

People need to stop excusing the operators - it's totally unjustifiable - alternatives are available, from RRBs, to taxis to strengthening. The train crew (especially on a Sunday) are there, its the utility of them that's the problem. The DfT/First group approach being taken of late is in total contrast to how it was 3/4 years ago, when TPE in particular would move hell and high water to try and get the customer there. By justifying this behaviour you simply normalise it and people, rightly, should be ranting and quite outraged by it.

Northern are far from fine, but they’re not as bad as TP.

 

[driverd]

Northern are far from fine, but they’re not as bad as TP.

Far from fine? East side, cancellations are insignificant % wise. I can't speak for the west. Meanwhile, TPE often cancel 1 or 2 trains of 6 per hour, all day, every day. Chalk and cheese really.

Edit: I should really eat my hat as, actually, today's performance on TPE is substantially better. The risk of relying on perception.

 

[Watershed]

Is there a plan to get out of this mess? As I am sure you are aware the railway of the North is a shambles at the moment (not all TP’s doing). But, what’s worse is lack of any ‘light at the end of the tunnel.’

Not really, and that's the worst thing as you say. Yes, training is always happening but ultimately, things won't really improve without a serious reduction to the timetable, as well as an associated change to rosters (otherwise you lose a lot of the concomitant resource savings). There seems to be no indication that either is on the cards.

 

[gazzaa2]

I’d be amazed if many away travelling football fans bother with trains weeknights nowadays. Most fans I know have started to use coaches - even more so on Saturdays. Cheaper, and more reliable. It’ll soon become the norm and more business lost for the railway.

It's hard enough getting home from weekend afternoon/evening games in the north given the current state of things. The rail services can't cope with high volumes of football fans on Saturdays when services are already crush loaded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==

 

[VauxhallNova]

Not really, and that's the worst thing as you say. Yes, training is always happening but ultimately, things won't really improve without a serious reduction to the timetable, as well as an associated change to rosters (otherwise you lose a lot of the concomitant resource savings). There seems to be no indication that either is on the cards.

Interesting. Do you know how have they got to the position where the timetable plan is so different to the available resources?

 

[driverd]

Interesting. Do you know how have they got to the position where the timetable plan is so different to the available resources?

Predominantly the issues arise around splitting links into traction/route specifics. Previously, all crew at a depot signed all traction (185s) and generally all routes/diversionaries etc. Come the new trains, TPE decided that most depots will see crew sign only 1 new traction. Bigger depots links were split so that crew would sign 1 new traction + 185s and the associated routes. Ie: 68 drivers at York no longer sign Liverpool and, unless I'm mistaken, Redcar. With the changes that have come in since the initial new trains plan, you're now in a situation where 802s/68s are running more than originally planned/to destinations that weren't in the initial plan and crew don't sign the route/traction combo. Route knowledge on diversionaries has also lapsed.

The second part to this problem is TPEs tendency to take efficient diagramming to the extreme. A journey from Newcastle to Liverpool can see 4 different drivers and 4 different guards, leading to a complete cancellation if any 1 of these is missing. The two issues compound one another dramatically.

The way out requires substantially more training hours for crew. This requires more trains to run for training purposes and more crew working rest days to come in for training. Without a rest day working agreement and with union relations as they currently stand, the chances of this happening are currently very slim indeed.

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately like everywhere else it seems, there needs to be less reliance on rest day working and more staff.

 

[43066]

Why do you always show absolutely no regard for customers, what so ever, in your replies? I'm all in favour of balance here but you're always so TOC sided its painful.

It’s not about taking sides or showing “regard for customers” - it’s about realism and what’s practically possible and sensible. If I seem “TOC sided” perhaps that’s because I’m one of the few posters who doesn’t constantly pile in with complaints about how awful the railway is.

I regularly criticise TOCs on here - if you find my comments “painful” you’re under no obligation to read them. FYI I’m also a “customer” of the railway myself, albeit one who is still happy to consider myself a “passenger” which seems a dirty word on here, not sure why!

Let's take a look from the customers perspective. In good faith, at 2 months notice, you've booked train tickets, you've booked a few nights in a hotel, tickets to an event/theatre etc that may not be refundable. With less than a weeks notice, the train operator pulls your service and basically says "sorry mate, here's your refund, you're not our problem anymore". To me (and probably the rest of the forum except you), there's a heck of a lot wrong with this. Predominantly because, as you put it:

And the tickets were sold on good faith. Sometimes things go wrong As we are always reminded whenever pay is being discussed, the railway is subsidised. I don’t happen to believe people who’ve paid a few quid for a ticket should expect be put into a taxi for hundreds of miles at tax payers’ expense.

In this case they’re being offered a refund, or travel on another day, with notice to make alternative arrangements. That seems pretty reasonable to me. There is such a thing as travel insurance to cover these eventualities…

Except it isn't. The practical solution is to sort this mess, that's been 2 years in the making, out. It's remarkable that other TOCs, namely northern, that have dealt with similar introduction of new trains, similar covid issues, similar levels of training demand and arguably a set of much more complex train crew manning agreements, yet have managed to deal with this just fine.

How much is down to the TOC versus the government…

People need to stop excusing the operators - it's totally unjustifiable - alternatives are available, from RRBs, to taxis to strengthening. The train crew (especially on a Sunday) are there, its the utility of them that's the problem. The DfT/First group approach being taken of late is in total contrast to how it was 3/4 years ago, when TPE in particular would move hell and high water to try and get the customer there. By justifying this behaviour you simply normalise it and people, rightly, should be ranting and quite outraged by it.

But clearly the traincrew aren’t there and there aren’t always alternatives as we have been over many many times…. Unless you’re one of many on here who think taxis and buses for tens of thousands of people grow on trees…

Pointing that out isn’t “justifying” anything.

 

[driverd]

It’s not about taking sides or showing “regard for customers” - it’s about realism and what’s practically possible and sensible. If I seem “TOC sided” perhaps that’s because I’m one of the few posters who doesn’t constantly pile in with complaints about how awful the railway is.

I'm not, for a second, a serial moaner and I hope that comes through in some of my other posts. It just seems that, often, you're happy to justify a poor showing - perhaps that's just a pragmatic response - it just seems that, certainly in this thread, you're quite happy to justify the operators actions.

I regularly criticise TOCs on here - if you find my comments “painful” you’re under no obligation to read them. FYI I’m also a “customer” of the railway myself, albeit one who is still happy to consider myself a “passenger” which seems a dirty word on here, not sure why!

It's more that it just seems out of touch. I appreciate you're a railway(man/woman/person), and a passionate one at that, but often the cost of travel for those working in the industry is a bit lost on us all - travelling for free or with 75% discount really doesn't put into perspective how expensive rail travel is and the level of service expected at such cost.

And the tickets were sold on good faith. Sometimes things go wrong As we are always reminded whenever pay is being discussed, the railway is subsidised. I don’t happen to believe people who’ve paid a few quid for a ticket should expect be put into a taxi for hundreds of miles at tax payers’ expense.

But at what point does that fall on its face? If you know you're unlikely to be able to deliver a service, when does good faith become vague optimism?

In terms of the second point - are you saying that someone who's paid for a open first ticket (as a fare costing substantially more than a few quid) has more right to replacement transport?

The whole argument around cost comes across a little bit snobbish really - ultimately a few quid to one man is a reasonable chunk of cash to another, especially considering they might be taking the family. There'll be plenty of people who see the train as an affordable option, where other modes wouldn't even enter their minds. The cost of providing the service/price paid for it is quite irrelevant really - the fact is a service has been sold. As a business at the biggest level, the railway needs to accept (and, in fairness, did quite a lot in the past) that sometimes you'll lose money, especially when the offered service falls on its face.

In this case they’re being offered a refund, or travel on another day, with notice to make alternative arrangements. That seems pretty reasonable to me. There is such a thing as travel insurance to cover these eventualities…

I'd agree - it is reasonable to offer alternatives in a timely fashion. The problem is, however, that the railway sets that expectation as arriving at your destination within 1 hour of the advertised time. Through delay repay, at this point, in some cases, your entitled to as much as 200% the cost of the individual journey (considering a return ticket where the full cost, out and back, is refunded). To suggest that a 100% refund for 24 hours + disruption is consistent, clearly doesn't follow.

How much is down to the TOC versus the government…

Again, I don't disagree. But there is a split. TPE made a lot of decisions based around saving money at the time of new fleet introduction, which have come back to thoroughly bite them. This was a conscious choice to save money short term.

But clearly the traincrew aren’t there and there aren’t always alternatives as we have been over many many times…. Unless you’re one of many on here who think taxis and buses for tens of thousands of people grow on trees…

Clearly they do not. But there are buses. And that's the point. All too often, no effort to provide a replacement at all is provided. Given the notice available, its certainly possible for the operators to source a limited coach replacement and offer this to customers. A choice between full refund and a coach would be far better than nothing at all.

Pointing that out isn’t “justifying” anything.

It is, in so far as you're saying that the TOCs shouldn't innovate or look to solutions beyond those already provided. I think there would be a very strong case to be made that TPE, over the last few years, would have had perfectly reasonable cause to invest in a limited fleet of their own vehicles and drivers to cover these eventualities (given the frequency of them), or failing that, a ring fenced contract with coach providers for stand by vehicles - as was, historically speaking, often the case.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Something appears to have gone awry somewhere along the Standedge route this afternoon, though there's been little or no information given over PAs at Batley (admittedly a Northern station) or on the 1501 to Huddersfield. There was an announcement at Dewsbury that passengers for Manchester should alight and wait for the following fast which is being diverted via Brighouse. There was also a heavily delayed Northern Wigan service which ran through fast as it was over 30 mins late... so I'm guessing that whatever has happened it isn't TPE's fault this time

 

[Fokx]

Something appears to have gone awry somewhere along the Standedge route this afternoon, though there's been little or no information given over PAs at Batley (admittedly a Northern station) or on the 1501 to Huddersfield. There was an announcement at Dewsbury that passengers for Manchester should alight and wait for the following fast which is being diverted via Brighouse. There was also a heavily delayed Northern Wigan service which ran through fast as it was over 30 mins late... so I'm guessing that whatever has happened it isn't TPE's fault this time

Fatality at Slaithwaite involving a Hull bound express

 

[VauxhallNova]

Predominantly the issues arise around splitting links into traction/route specifics. Previously, all crew at a depot signed all traction (185s) and generally all routes/diversionaries etc. Come the new trains, TPE decided that most depots will see crew sign only 1 new traction. Bigger depots links were split so that crew would sign 1 new traction + 185s and the associated routes. Ie: 68 drivers at York no longer sign Liverpool and, unless I'm mistaken, Redcar. With the changes that have come in since the initial new trains plan, you're now in a situation where 802s/68s are running more than originally planned/to destinations that weren't in the initial plan and crew don't sign the route/traction combo. Route knowledge on diversionaries has also lapsed.

The second part to this problem is TPEs tendency to take efficient diagramming to the extreme. A journey from Newcastle to Liverpool can see 4 different drivers and 4 different guards, leading to a complete cancellation if any 1 of these is missing. The two issues compound one another dramatically.

The way out requires substantially more training hours for crew. This requires more trains to run for training purposes and more crew working rest days to come in for training. Without a rest day working agreement and with union relations as they currently stand, the chances of this happening are currently very slim indeed.

Which is why they view it as DfTs 'fault'?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Fatality at Slaithwaite involving a Hull bound express

Thought it might be something like that sadly. When my train got to Huddersfield it was chaos, no eastbound fasts so loads of people crowding platform six for the stopper and trying to board before people got off!

Got back to Huddersfield station to find the station has been evacuated by police- possibly so the unit involved in incident can reverse to head back to Ardwick without members of the public being subjected to seeing the effects.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==

Latest update: the next stopper to Leeds is the 1849- not the plan I had for the day, but thems the breaks. Could do the bus, but that'll cost me £4 and I'm not doing it on principle, not least because I don't really want to pay to sit on two Arriva sweatboxes for an hour. I would have gone for the Saltburn and changed at Dewsbury, but the Northern from Wigan is cancelled too.

At least I will get home eventually. Someone somewhere will be getting the worst knock at the door imaginable sadly.

Thoughts with the driver involved in the unfortunate incident today.

 

[43066]

I'm not, for a second, a serial moaner and I hope that comes through in some of my other posts. It just seems that, often, you're happy to justify a poor showing - perhaps that's just a pragmatic response - it just seems that, certainly in this thread, you're quite happy to justify the operators actions.

It’s not meant as a justification, more an explanation as to what has happened. On the other hand I don’t think TPE’s actions have necessarily been unreasonable here, in making the best of a bad situation.

It's more that it just seems out of touch. I appreciate you're a railway(man/woman/person), and a passionate one at that, but often the cost of travel for those working in the industry is a bit lost on us all - travelling for free or with 75% discount really doesn't put into perspective how expensive rail travel is and the level of service expected at such cost.

The passion is being stretched to breaking point at the moment! Generally agree with your point here, but worth remembering advance tickets are cheaper than privs in some cases, and the prices are often comparable.

But at what point does that fall on its face? If you know you're unlikely to be able to deliver a service, when does good faith become vague optimism?

In terms of the second point - are you saying that someone who's paid for a open first ticket (as a fare costing substantially more than a few quid
) has more right to replacement transport?

The point about the service falling over is precisely why I think TOCs should be able to notify people that they should not travel on a particular day and offer refunds/alternative days to travel as appropriate. This should only ever be during *severe* disruption - ie strikes or major weather events causing entire network shutdowns. There could be an objective set of criteria they’re required to meet in order to do that. Pretending everything is fine and carrying on regardless is what leads to more people being stranded. There’s no point having a theoretical right to something that is impossible to provide - something that many people on here seem incapable of understanding.

In terms of the second point, generally tickets being available at a range of prices offer people choice. You may choose to pay more to ensure more comfort, or have more choice of trains. There’s no reason in principle why that shouldn’t be expanded to include reliability.

The whole argument around cost comes across a little bit snobbish really - ultimately a few quid to one man is a reasonable chunk of cash to another, especially considering they might be taking the family. There'll be plenty of people who see the train as an affordable option, where other modes wouldn't even enter their minds. The cost of providing the service/price paid for it is quite irrelevant really - the fact is a service has been sold. As a business at the biggest level, the railway needs to accept (and, in fairness, did quite a lot in the past) that sometimes you'll lose money, especially when the offered service falls on its face.

Snobbishness doesn’t come into it - as I said above really. It’s about allowing people to make a choice to pay for different levels of service.

We all know the railway isn’t a normal business, it’s subsidised by the tax payer and the potential sums owed by shoving everyone with an advance ticket into a taxi are enormous - And that’s assuming it’s even physically possible to do which it often won’t be.

I'd agree - it is reasonable to offer alternatives in a timely fashion. The problem is, however, that the railway sets that expectation as arriving at your destination within 1 hour of the advertised time. Through delay repay, at this point, in some cases, your entitled to as much as 200% the cost of the individual journey (considering a return ticket where the full cost, out and back, is refunded). To suggest that a 100% refund for 24 hours + disruption is consistent, clearly doesn't follow.

Well perhaps repay is unrealistic.

Again, I don't disagree. But there is a split. TPE made a lot of decisions based around saving money at the time of new fleet introduction, which have come back to thoroughly bite them. This was a conscious choice to save money short term.

How much was TPE’s choice? There’s a lot of desire to blame TOCs for things that actually aren’t within their power.

Clearly they do not. But there are buses. And that's the point. All too often, no effort to provide a replacement at all is provided. Given the notice available, its certainly possible for the operators to source a limited coach replacement and offer this to customers. A choice between full refund and a coach would be far better than nothing at all.

We’re back to making an “effort” which might be woefully inadequate and may not be practically possible.

It is, in so far as you're saying that the TOCs shouldn't innovate or look to solutions beyond those already provided. I think there would be a very strong case to be made that TPE, over the last few years, would have had perfectly reasonable cause to invest in a limited fleet of their own vehicles and drivers to cover these eventualities (given the frequency of them), or failing that, a ring fenced contract with coach providers for stand by vehicles - as was, historically speaking, often the case.

This is unrealistic: there is never going to be spare cash to invest in a fleet of vehicles, especially during a chronic labour shortage. Contracting for stand by vehicles isn’t going to be practical if those vehicles can be used elsewhere (for potentially more money).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm finally on a train home, the 1849 Huddersfield to Leeds. Obviously the disruption today was not TPE's doing, it's more the responsibility of either the NHS, or more accurately central government that has tanked the economy and added fuel to the mental health crisis "fire"... but that's somewhat off-topic.

However, would it have been so difficult to issue additional stop orders to some of the first fast services that made it through? Obviously things got pretty chaotic this evening and I don't envy the staff on the front line trying their best to deal with the situation as it unfolded, but I'm always reading about people in other parts of the country being 'rescued' by "fast" services making additional stops... I've never once encountered the same with TPE. Of course how such information would be communicated to passengers who had decided to take refuge in one of the pubs or the festivities in the square is a whole different can of worms.

On the bright side, the two pubs at Huddersfield will have benefitted from the disruption (three pints from me alone!), and we even had a live music performance to enjoy courtesy of a pre-planned event!

 

[Fokx]

However, would it have been so difficult to issue additional stop orders to some of the first fast services that made it through? Obviously things got pretty chaotic this evening and I don't envy the staff on the front line trying their best to deal with the situation as it unfolded, but I'm always reading about people in other parts of the country being 'rescued' by "fast" services making additional stops... I've never once encountered the same with TPE.

It does happen, but it’s not just as simple as saying let’s stop here as I’m sure you know.

It requires control to contact network rail to arrange to stop at the stations where pathing and signalling could be an issue. Then both the driver and guard are to receive a paper stop order from a station supervisor/team leader (There can be direct verbal agreement but this isn’t the agreed/correct way to do it) and for both the driver and guard to come to a mutual understanding and agree to it, liase back to control and then control to alert Network Rail for each individual service.

As you can imagine it’s much easier to manage when its individual services affected and not the network going up the spout. I’ve had several stop orders on services, largely for Dewsbury and Stalybridge.

Another issue for today was that many of the express services that did run via Brighouse were so full that you physically couldn’t fit any more passengers on for the additional calls if they were made. (In the last week I refused an SSO for this very reason)

 

[VauxhallNova]

How much was TPE’s choice? There’s a lot of desire to blame TOCs for things that actually aren’t within their power.

To be fair, there's also a lot of desire both on this forum and the rail press more widely to defend the behaviour of train operators in any circumstance.

I think there's a belief that the Exec level decisions always reflect the passion that traincrew and other railway workers have to do the best for passengers which - given the financial requirements of any shareholder-driven business - is not always how it works in the finance department.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As you can imagine it’s much easier to manage when its individual services affected and not the network going up the spout. I’ve had several stop orders on services, largely for Dewsbury and Stalybridge.

Another issue for today was that many of the express services that did run via Brighouse were so full that you physically couldn’t fit any more passengers on for the additional calls if they were made. (In the last week I refused an SSO for this very reason)

I can appreciate that it isn't as simple as a call on the GSMR to say "stop additionally at Batley please, driver"... however, given the chaos that has gone on tonight, it really would have helped myself and others out. The odd cancellation I can cope with even with an hourly service, but when I'm stuck for over two hours it's a bit much. Huddersfield station had plenty of staff on doing their best to advise people so I'm sure it wouldn't be ridiculous for control to use one of them to pass written messages onto the crews.

Of course, notifying passengers heading for Mirfield or Batley about an additional stop being added to a fast service is a whole other can of worms, and with the deliberate (and entirely understandable) obfuscation of information when there's been a "one under" it isn't easy for people to know exactly what the problem is and why it isn't an easy fix. For example one person I spoke to during the wait was adamant that all the disruption was down to "The Freemasons"... which was my cue to drink up and try the Head of Steam instead!