Network railcard during peak times - MG11

[some bloke]

There are also the questions of how obvious or not the 10am restriction is when buying the railcard on Trainline, and when the railcard is displayed on the phone. I didn't see very prominent references to the restriction at the start of the buying process. These factors may add plausibility to your claim that you didn't know.

You can let GA know your new address by emailing Customer Services to ask whether they can pass it on to the prosecution department, or would give you an email address for the department.

Contact Us

How can we help you

www.greateranglia.co.uk

You could add that you'd be grateful if the department could confirm they've received it.

Would it be worth @simbariya adding a brief and polite note apologising for the mistake and for arguing with the staff member - in case when looking at the file to change the address, the person in the prosecution department thinks they might as well deal with the case at the same time by sending a settlement offer?

 

[simbariya]

Thank you for all your input guys, it is most helpful.

There are also the questions of how obvious or not the 10am restriction is when buying the railcard on Trainline, and when the railcard is displayed on the phone. I didn't see very prominent references to the restriction at the start of the buying process. These factors may add plausibility to your claim that you didn't know.

You can let GA know your new address by emailing Customer Services to ask whether they can pass it on to the prosecution department, or would give you an email address for the department.

Contact Us

How can we help you

www.greateranglia.co.uk

You could add that you'd be grateful if the department could confirm they've received it.

Would it be worth @simbariya adding a brief and polite note apologising for the mistake and for arguing with the staff member - in case when looking at the file to change the address, the person in the prosecution department thinks they might as well deal with the case at the same time by sending a settlement offer?

Would appreciate another opinion whether it is worth reaching out to them as well, given that I've already contacted IRCAS about the change of address.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for all your input guys, it is most helpful.



Would appreciate another opinion whether it is worth reaching out to them as well, given that I've already contacted IRCAS about the change of address.

I think it would be wise to contact GA with your change of address.

I'm in two minds as to whether I would also apologise in the same correspondence, but I suppose it can do no harm. I would not focus / mention your behaviour towards the staff member (they may not know about it so why tell them, and an apology 'for what has happened' could be taken as to cover all aspects (you claim in your OP that you "got a mouthful" from the inspector, but only you know what you said at the time to them when refusing to pay the PF!) - but also important to add that you believe you should have been offered the ability to pay an Excess Fare (an 'Excess Fare' is an official railway term IIRC) and would like to offer to pay that now.

After all, if nothing comes of it in that letter then you can still request it when they write to you from prosecutions in the standard way they do, and writing to ensure they have your correct address points towards good co-operating from you as well. So having that on the record, even if they fail to reply to it or to your request at this stage, is a good idea.

So if you want to write I suggest you get drafting and post your draft here for advice on content if you feel that will help. Remember - such a letter at this stage is primarily about change of address, so any apology and request to pay Excess Fare needs to be brief if you do this now. Do not lie in what you say, but do not feel the need to draw attention to things that you can avoid mentioning.

 

[Western Sunset]

If the OP had bought the "Anytime" ticket without the Network Card, would it have been valid for any time? It seems crazy to me, as others have noted, that a ticket labelled "Anytime" isn't actually valid for any time.

 

[simbariya]

@WesternLancer

Thank you, I was thinking of writing something along the lines of this:


Dear Greater Anglia,

Hope this email finds you well.

I am expecting correspondence from Greater Anglia Prosecutions Department regarding an unpaid penalty fare, however there has been a change of address.
Please kindly pass the following address update to the Prosecutions Department:

old address - new address

I would also like to offer my humble apology for refusing to pay the Penalty Fare, as I believe I should have been offered to pay an Excess Fare according to p. 9.5 of National Rail Conditions of Travel, but was not given an opportunity to do so. I would also like to state I am happy to pay the Excess Fare now in order to reach a swift and amicable resolution.

Kind regards,

 

[skyhigh]

But the fact that the Network Railcard conditions suggest a Penalty Fare can be issued* is not fatal - as this is contradicted by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which states in 9.5 that the penalty for travelling on a time-restricted ticket at an invalid time is simply payment of the excess. And condition 1.2 of the Network Railcard conditions says:

Playing devil's advocate a little, 9.5 says:

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So seeing as the ticket was an Anytime, could it not be argued that the ticket was not time-restricted, but the discount was? In which case, the Railcard terms would apply and a Penalty Fare would be appropriate?

 

[island]

Playing devil's advocate a little, 9.5 says:

So seeing as the ticket was an Anytime, could it not be argued that the ticket was not time-restricted, but the discount was? In which case, the Railcard terms would apply and a Penalty Fare would be appropriate?

Whilst I think there is a good discussion to be had on this subject, the OP has not been issued a Penalty Fare so the discussion is not germane to this thread and does not assist the OP's predicament.

 

[Western Sunset]

@WesternLancer

Thank you, I was thinking of writing something along the lines of this:


Dear Greater Anglia,

Hope this email finds you well.

I am expecting correspondence from Greater Anglia Prosecutions Department regarding an unpaid penalty fare, however there has been a change of address.
Please kindly pass the following address update to the Prosecutions Department:

old address - new address

I would also like to offer my humble apology for refusing to pay the Penalty Fare, as I believe I should have been offered to pay an Excess Fare according to p. 9.5 of National Rail Conditions of Travel, but was not given an opportunity to do so. I would also like to state I am happy to pay the Excess Fare now in order to reach a swift and amicable resolution.

Kind regards,

I'd say "sincere apology" rather than "humble apology"...

 

[skyhigh]

Whilst I think there is a good discussion to be had on this subject, the OP has not been issued a Penalty Fare so the discussion is not germane to this thread and does not assist the OP's predicament.

It's relevant in so much as it's been suggested upthread that due to this condition, the company would be unable to prosecute - and the OP refused to accept a penalty fare. But yes, so as not to disrupt the thread I'll start a new one.

 

[simbariya]

I'd say "sincere apology" rather than "humble apology"...

Thanks, I have sent an email to their contact centre now.

I suppose I now wait for the prosecutions letter to arrive, and I will be back to update on the progress.

Thank you all who contributed, you have been most helpful.

 

[some bloke]

I suppose I now wait for the prosecutions letter to arrive

Perhaps write back asking for confirmation that they have received your email, if you don't hear in a few days.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, I have sent an email to their contact centre now.

I suppose I now wait for the prosecutions letter to arrive, and I will be back to update on the progress.

Thank you all who contributed, you have been most helpful.

I probably wouldn't have put the apology in there, because you have simply given them ammunition against you if the matter proceeds to Court. But that can't be changed now, so don't worry about it too much. There is every likelihood that you will be offered an out of Court settlement, and despite you not having committed any offence (in my view) it would probably still be the least worst option to accept this and pay it, if offered. The system is heavily tilted in favour of TOCs, unfortunately.

 

[Class800]

If the OP had bought the "Anytime" ticket without the Network Card, would it have been valid for any time? It seems crazy to me, as others have noted, that a ticket labelled "Anytime" isn't actually valid for any time.

I agree. Also that 5am is peak when most people are asleep.

 

[skyhigh]

I agree. Also that 5am is peak when most people are asleep.

'Peak' times are irrelevant here. The issue is the Railcard is not valid before 10am, no matter what 'peak' period actually applies to the ticket.

 

[Class800]

'Peak' times are irrelevant here. The issue is the Railcard is not valid before 10am, no matter what 'peak' period actually applies to the ticket.

The controversy is that the ticket says 'any time' - and does not say on it 'unless you have a railcard' - it does not seem to be making sure the customer has clear information at point of sale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The controversy is that the ticket says 'any time' - and does not say on it 'unless you have a railcard' - it does not seem to be making sure the customer has clear information at point of sale.

The Railcard's T&Cs make the added restriction VERY clear. It's in the leaflet, it's printed on it and most likely you're told it when buying too. I don't see that it is in any way ambiguous nor confusing.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

The Railcard's T&Cs make the added restriction VERY clear. It's in the leaflet, it's printed on it and most likely you're told it when buying too.

Printed on the physical version yes but not on the trainline version.

 

[Watershed]

The Railcard's T&Cs make the added restriction VERY clear. It's in the leaflet, it's printed on it and most likely you're told it when buying too. I don't see that it is in any way ambiguous nor confusing.

It's easy to see how it could be ambiguous or confusing to the average person if you're told one thing when you buy a Railcard and later, when you buy your ticket - having told the website what Railcard you want to use - it explicitly tells you that you can use your ticket at "any time of day".

 

[jon0844]

Printed on the physical version yes but not on the trainline version.

Then people should make a claim against Trainline.

 

[WesternLancer]

Then people should make a claim against Trainline.

Who would simply say that the OP bought a ticket against a later itinerary when the ticket was indeed valid (but changed plan due to fear of strike implications and used a service that Trainline would never have said was valid had they been asked) - this is part of why buying from 3rd party retailer is a problem in cases like this as the OP does not want to spend time arguing with the disjointed railway system, they just wanted to pay the fare they owed.

Bringing a claim against Trainline is a theoretically good idea, but in practice just more cost and hassle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2022 ==

@WesternLancer

Thank you, I was thinking of writing something along the lines of this:


Dear Greater Anglia,

Hope this email finds you well.

I am expecting correspondence from Greater Anglia Prosecutions Department regarding an unpaid penalty fare, however there has been a change of address.
Please kindly pass the following address update to the Prosecutions Department:

old address - new address

I would also like to offer my humble apology for refusing to pay the Penalty Fare, as I believe I should have been offered to pay an Excess Fare according to p. 9.5 of National Rail Conditions of Travel, but was not given an opportunity to do so. I would also like to state I am happy to pay the Excess Fare now in order to reach a swift and amicable resolution.

Kind regards,

Hi - was off line when you posted this so apols I did not respond earlier. I would have tweaked it a bit but nothing massive. I see in a later post you have said you have sent it so good luck. When whatever comes next arrives head back here for any advice you need on how best to respond to it.

 

[Hadders]

At one time Anytime tickets could not be discounted with a Network Railcard. This changed when First Capital Connect bought in evening peak restrictions around 2008. Anytime tickets were required to travel from London to many destinations in the evening peak and it then became reasonable for these to be able to be discounted with a Network Railcard. IIRC it took several months for the train companies to see sense and allow the discount to be allowed in Anytine tickets.

Of course an unintended consequence of this is the confusion it can cause in a case like this….

 

[gray1404]

The original poster was not issued with a penalty fare by GA so should not be referring to any such penalty fare and their correspondence.

I personally do not think they have done anything wrong regarding the tickets and should not be pursued. I would be fighting this matter.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I personally do not think they have done anything wrong regarding the tickets and should not be pursued. I would be fighting this matter.

An argument, perhaps, that the amount of the discount taken is due, and just that?

 

[WesternLancer]

An argument, perhaps, that the amount of the discount taken is due, and just that?

Yes, I think the sum owed is the Excess Fare that would cover the misapplied railcard discount. I don't think we know where the OP travelled from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While a PF was not charged in this case, I've just read the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 and can see nothing in them that would prevent a Penalty Fare being charged in this case, which gives credence to my view that Section 10 overrides Section 9 in PF areas.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made if anyone wants a look (they're a bit long to quote).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes, I think the sum owed is the Excess Fare that would cover the misapplied railcard discount. I don't think we know where the OP travelled from.

London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport, wasn't it?

 

[furlong]

At that time of the morning, that's what we've all assumed - what could have connected into it? But I would agree it does feel as though there's one crucial piece of information still missing from this story, particularly given the questions posed that the OP has chosen not to answer.

But on the basis of the narrative we have, I'd lean towards the argument that the ticket would be contractually valid for a journey such as this one and no excess would be payable. We've got two contradictory contractual terms and I'd probably conclude that in the final analysis the one stated explicitly without qualification at the point of sale takes precedence over the implicit one that the consumer was expected to remember from what they (perhaps) read at an earlier time, and not the other way around - not least because it would have been so easy for the Licensed Retailer to have stated the 10am restriction if it was intended to apply but it neglected to do this or even actively chose not to. Both being aware of such a conflict and then knowing the right way to resolve it should not be requirements expected of the consumer. And there are circumstances where the railway does permit travel prior to 10am without mentioning this at all in the current T&Cs so even the railway itself does not treat the current T&Cs as fully correct and complete. (Various train easements plus Calais when it is offered.)

 

[Watershed]

While a PF was not charged in this case, I've just read the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 and can see nothing in them that would prevent a Penalty Fare being charged in this case, which gives credence to my view that Section 10 overrides Section 9 in PF areas.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made if anyone wants a look (they're a bit long to quote).

The Regulations don't prevent a PF from being issued, but the question of whether the ticket is valid is something which (for obvious reasons) isn't defined by the Regs, but rather is determined by the conditions under which the ticket is issued.

And in any event, a PF was not issued and cannot now retrospectively be issued.

 

[WesternLancer]

London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport, wasn't it?

I was thinking it probably was.

Anytime Single £20.70 (source BRfares.com).

So if an Excess Fare was permitted it would be the difference between whatever @simbariya paid and £20.70 I presume

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Regulations don't prevent a PF from being issued, but the question of whether the ticket is valid is something which (for obvious reasons) isn't defined by the Regs, but rather is determined by the conditions under which the ticket is issued.

Er, it is.

(2) In these Regulations—

(a)any reference to a “valid travel ticket” is a reference to a travel ticket in a person’s possession which is valid for—

(i)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make;

(ii)the train and route used for that journey;

(iii)the age of that person;

(iv)use with any rail card in the possession of that person which they are entitled to use for that journey;

(v)use in combination with any other travel ticket in the possession of that person which they are entitled to use for that journey; and

(vi)the class of travel used by that person; and

(b)any reference to a person leaving a train includes a person present in or leaving—

(i)a station, having left a train arriving at that station; or

(ii)a compulsory ticket area, having left a train arriving at that compulsory ticket area.

(3) Where the terms on which a travel ticket is issued require the holder to produce on request any other document(11)when using that ticket for travel, any reference in these Regulations to a travel ticket includes such a document.