New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[jon0844]

FCC has proven time and time again that working the gates from time to time until midnight (or the last train) has a positive effect on cutting anti social behaviour AND getting revenue.. yet they do it so rarely.

Finsbury Park will be getting gates, but obviously they're going to be left open after around 9pm (and some FCC stations like Hatfield are open after 8pm) so people on a night out needn't pay at all. It's not as if they're able to assume that most people are simply coming home from a day out and would therefore have a ticket anyway.

That might be true to an extent, but it doesn't catch the drunks causing trouble or those sitting/taking over First Class to the detriment of those who might actually have first class tickets (even at that time as they are coming back from a long day at work).

I cannot see how manning the gates all night at least at key places/interchanges wouldn't pay for itself. I accept that places like Welham Green wouldn't require all day checks, but imagine if you had gates manned at most stations and a roving team that picked the smaller stations randomly so there was maybe a 1 in 5 chance of being caught right up until the last train?

Won't happen though, obviously.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit most of my last train homes were on travel cards. The welwyn stopper normally left from 9-11 anyway much to our disappointment as it was a long way from the tube (how times change with the northern hall open). However the chances are that you would not have paid to get in either, other than the permit to travel. It was a while ago so I understand the permit machines have gone and most take credit cards. I would never trust a TVM with a note!

 

[Fred26]

This may surprise some, but I have some concerns.
I'm prepared to admit that I may have been wrong and having stood and watched the gates today for about half an hour (I watched a Sunderland board and an Edinburgh alight), I'm not convinced they're such a good idea any more.

I'm still very pro-gates, but with the limited space, which I previously thought was plenty, they may not be appropriate at Kings Cross.
First of all the Sunderland train was called for boarding, well before time. This was a busy service and the barriers were doing fine, until people arrived at the barriers unprepared and then everyone was held up. The Edinburgh train came in shortly after (though most people for Sunderland had already gone through) and this was worse. The first fifty (maybe) passengers went through fine, then one bloke had his ticket rejected, tried it again (why?!), looked around confused and eventually asked for help. In the meantime, a queue had formed behind him and since the Edinburgh train had come in on 0 (and Sunderland departing from 1), the queue was back down the platform. He wasn't the only one confused. There were plenty of passengers going in both directions who didn't have their ticket ready - some even looked like they'd never seen a barrier before. Maybe that's true, I don't know.
The East Coast staff did what they could, but it was just trying to herd people along to the gates in front of 3 and 4, which was difficult.

I'm going to reserve my judgement on whether I agree with the barriers, in this position, until the restoration is complete, but I want them to work seamlessly. I don't want to see an embarrassing crush every time an East Coast unloads/boards. I think if there were more space between the platform end and the gates, they'd be easier to use, but as far as I can tell, the gates are in their final position.

I'm not debating their overall effectiveness and whether that is a reason to remove them or not. As I say, I'm still pro-gates, just not so sure that these gates in particular are a great idea where they are at present.

 

[swt_passenger]

The operation will be quite different when complete, nearly all the gates they've just put in and the rest at the front of the station will be for exit only. Entrance will be from the west side, or from the mezzanine level using the footbridge a third of the way down the platforms.

I'm very surprised they've put any gates in now though, surely they should have waited until they could do the final set up all at once.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I was there this afternoon and it seems like a mess. And it's quite surreal to see a packed concourse and a totally empty 'quarantined' area by 0-5 with some staff by the gates (and the emergency gate to the side) and a PCSO that looked decidedly bored.

If they are going to keep the gates there, they must move all the seats (or at least one row) from in front of the departure screens and relocate them - to give a corridor for people to walk though. Now you have to just weave in and out of people, which is not acceptable.

When is the new entrance going to open? Is it this December?

 

[Fred26]

The operation will be quite different when complete, nearly all the gates they've just put in and the rest at the front of the station will be for exit only. Entrance will be from the west side, or from the mezzanine level using the footbridge a third of the way down the platforms.

I'm very surprised they've put any gates in now though, surely they should have waited until they could do the final set up all at once.

I had thought they were doing something along those lines. Will entrance to the platforms be via the bridge and escalators/lifts that are currently being installed?

 

[blacknight]

This may surprise some, but I have some concerns.
I'm prepared to admit that I may have been wrong and having stood and watched the gates today for about half an hour (I watched a Sunderland board and an Edinburgh alight), I'm not convinced they're such a good idea any more.

I'm still very pro-gates, but with the limited space, which I previously thought was plenty, they may not be appropriate at Kings Cross.
First of all the Sunderland train was called for boarding, well before time. This was a busy service and the barriers were doing fine, until people arrived at the barriers unprepared and then everyone was held up. The Edinburgh train came in shortly after (though most people for Sunderland had already gone through) and this was worse. The first fifty (maybe) passengers went through fine, then one bloke had his ticket rejected, tried it again (why?!), looked around confused and eventually asked for help. In the meantime, a queue had formed behind him and since the Edinburgh train had come in on 0 (and Sunderland departing from 1), the queue was back down the platform. He wasn't the only one confused. There were plenty of passengers going in both directions who didn't have their ticket ready - some even looked like they'd never seen a barrier before. Maybe that's true, I don't know.
The East Coast staff did what they could, but it was just trying to herd people along to the gates in front of 3 and 4, which was difficult.

I'm going to reserve my judgement on whether I agree with the barriers, in this position, until the restoration is complete, but I want them to work seamlessly. I don't want to see an embarrassing crush every time an East Coast unloads/boards. I think if there were more space between the platform end and the gates, they'd be easier to use, but as far as I can tell, the gates are in their final position.

I'm not debating their overall effectiveness and whether that is a reason to remove them or not. As I say, I'm still pro-gates, just not so sure that these gates in particular are a great idea where they are at present.

Trouble with gates is they are not user friendly when passengers travel on AP tickets, for instance single passengers as at least 2 coupons that look like ticket so right away its 50/50 that right one is entered into gate & queues forms quicky to the rear.

 

[Deerfold]

Trouble with gates is they are not user friendly when passengers travel on AP tickets, for instance single passengers as at least 2 coupons that look like ticket so right away its 50/50 that right one is entered into gate & queues forms quicky to the rear.

There's also a lot of passengers with luggage - and although there are several wide gates you can't see which they are until you're on top of them.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had thought they were doing something along those lines. Will entrance to the platforms be via the bridge and escalators/lifts that are currently being installed?

Only for those people waiting upstairs on the catering floor - but it is intended that route will be 'one way' for departures only, although how they'll enforce that with lifts I'm not sure.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I was there this afternoon and it seems like a mess. And it's quite surreal to see a packed concourse and a totally empty 'quarantined' area by 0-5 with some staff by the gates (and the emergency gate to the side) and a PCSO that looked decidedly bored.

If they are going to keep the gates there, they must move all the seats (or at least one row) from in front of the departure screens and relocate them - to give a corridor for people to walk though. Now you have to just weave in and out of people, which is not acceptable.

When is the new entrance going to open? Is it this December?

The existing building at the front outside the 'arches' will eventually be completely removed. The area you are talking about will be in the open air, and to all intents exit only. There will be a canopy over the gateline projecting about as far as the recently built stairs down to the tube - and they will also be 'outside'.

That's why I pointed out earlier that the final situation will be nothing whatsoever like the situation now. Passengers waiting under the departure screens will be round the side in the new bit.

 

[jon0844]

I know that's the plan, but merely asked when it will happen. Is the new entrance opening this December? Until it does, they can't remove the horrid 'temporary' concourse that went up in the 70s.

They cannot wait until the station is finished to fix the problems they have today.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know that's the plan, but merely asked when it will happen. Is the new entrance opening this December? Until it does, they can't remove the horrid 'temporary' concourse that went up in the 70s.

They cannot wait until the station is finished to fix the problems they have today.

All I've read is that the western concourse is due to be complete early next year, but the demolition of the old will not start until after the Olympics, to avoid having a building site in front of the station.

My own suspicion is that the current concourse will become 'exit only' as soon as the side concourse is ready.

 

[Failed Unit]

All I've read is that the western concourse is due to be complete early next year, but the demolition of the old will not start until after the Olympics, to avoid having a building site in front of the station.

My own suspicion is that the current concourse will become 'exit only' as soon as the side concourse is ready.

I tend to agree here, probably won't be a bad way of working to be honest as long as the platforms are known well in advance. Although I don't think the extra walking time from Euston Road will be welcome if that is the only way to enter the platforms. Judging by the dreadful platforms 8&9 at Waverley the restricted walking area is only really an issue unloading.

As for the problems already experienced at Kings Cross, this is hardly a surprise. Commuting passengers do the same thing everyday and have the ticket ready in the correct hand to pass through. Inter-city passengers travel less frequently so some probably never have experienced barriers before so you do get which ticket do I put in? Even us that know exactly what to do encounter delays with baggage while have to put it down to free up a hand to put it into the barrier and wait for it to open.

I have noticed most people put rejected tickets in twice, maybe thinking they put it in upside down first time. They then stare at the barrier before seeking assistance. Even when the ticket is invalid such ad off-peak in the peak.

I can't see things getting better as passengers get used to them as east coasts passengers don't encounter them enough and will always have baggage. Maybe things will improve when more of them exist but it definately is proving so far why barriers are wrong for Inter-city.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps if the screen gave a more informative message, instead of a code that even staff might not know, it could stop people trying repeatedly.

And the screens have very small text with a poor contrast, so presumably prove hard to read for visually impaired.

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

 

[Mojo]

Perhaps if the screen gave a more informative message, instead of a code that even staff might not know, it could stop people trying repeatedly.

The ticket gates made by S&B (like the ones at Leeds, Leicester, Norwich, etc.) say on the display why it's rejected the ticket. Not always useful; I always get "ticket not valid at this location" which offended me greatly as it was always a lie

I don't think they are compatible with Oyster though (they can handle ITSO). Romford used to have "swoosh swoosh" gates like at Chelmsford (don't know who makes them) but they were removed and replaced with the current type due to Oyster compatibility issues. As an aside, does anyone know where else they may be found? They were formerly at Southampton Central, Portsmouth/Southsea and Romford but have all been removed. See here for an example from Chelmsford.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I don't think they are compatible with Oyster though (they can handle ITSO). Romford used to have "swoosh swoosh" gates like at Chelmsford (don't know who makes them) but they were removed and replaced with the current type due to Oyster compatibility issues. As an aside, does anyone know where else they may be found? They were formerly at Southampton Central, Portsmouth/Southsea and Romford but have all been removed. See here for an example from Chelmsford.

Although totally pointless, I can say Chelmsford is being re-gated with more modern gates (according to RAIL last month).

 

[Fred26]

Those gates at Chelmsford do not work with NXEA staff passes. Or didn't, a few years back. Most frustrating.

 

[somebloke]

This may surprise some, but I have some concerns.
I'm prepared to admit that I may have been wrong and having stood and watched the gates today for about half an hour (I watched a Sunderland board and an Edinburgh alight), I'm not convinced they're such a good idea any more.

I'm still very pro-gates, but with the limited space, which I previously thought was plenty, they may not be appropriate at Kings Cross.

Well, to be clear all round (as one of those you replied to earlier in thread) I am not anti-gates, I just think they've located these ones very badly.

one bloke had his ticket rejected, tried it again (why?!),

Because sometimes it works second try. Really, it does.

No, that bloke wasn't me, but that has happened to me, and more than once. No idea why, and seems more likely to work when tried again in a different gate. Seems also to happen more when using through rail tickets in tube gates, but maybe that's just where I use the gates most often. On at least one occaision I have extricated myself from the gate & queue, wandered over to the staffed gate, meekly waving the failed ticket, and been instructed to try it again in that gate... which promptly accepted it. Feel silly ? - yep.

So next time ? - take ticket back, double check it's the right one of 6 or so tickets, seat res, collection receipts, straighten it out, try again... then, eventually, "seek assistance".


Which brings up the next gripe - not the mysterious codes or that "seek assistance" might not be the easiest english for foreign travellers, but simply why is the machine asking me to do something it could have already done itself ?

There is no decision or input asked or required from the passenger - simply an instruction to do something. The machine could easily seek the assistance for the passenger, probably before the passenger has even processed the message. The assistance is also on the less congested side of the gates and not carrying luggage, kids, etc., and so can typically get to the passenger a lot faster. Why isn't it done this way ?

 

[Mojo]

Which brings up the next gripe - not the mysterious codes or that "seek assistance" might not be the easiest english for foreign travellers, but simply why is the machine asking me to do something it could have already done itself ?

There is no decision or input asked or required from the passenger - simply an instruction to do something. The machine could easily seek the assistance for the passenger, probably before the passenger has even processed the message. The assistance is also on the less congested side of the gates and not carrying luggage, kids, etc., and so can typically get to the passenger a lot faster. Why isn't it done this way ?

I'd be surprised if it wasn't in the staff training that staff are encouraged to be proactive and looking to help passengers once they are aware, by looking at the display (where possible), listening for the sound (where provided) and looking for passengers who are obviously having trouble. I was certainly taught this but good service would have dictated I do it anyway. Unfortunately in my experience this advice has been left in the training room.

 

[jon0844]

At Hatfield, they do listen for the warning beep and call people over to help them.

But, I find the Cubic gates do have very small screens that don't convey much useful information at all. While it would have been more expensive, they could have used a colour LCD panel that could have combined the green arrow/red cross and made it possible to print up a decent sized text that would readable by all.

Mind you, paper tickets contain very little information so the next step would be to upgrade the ticketing so more detailed info could be obtained from a ticket (or smartcard), but certainly in the meantime it could tell people that an off-peak ticket is not valid, that child and YPRC tickets must show railcard to staff and so on.

While we all know why many stations check railcards, doesn't the industry think people will be confused as to why their tickets don't work? In fact, why not tell YPRC holders that they'll always need to go through the manual barrier? Given Hatfield is a University town, there are rather a lot of people that trigger the seek assistance message.

 

[Mike395]

The ticket gates made by S&B (like the ones at Leeds, Leicester, Norwich, etc.) say on the display why it's rejected the ticket. Not always useful; I always get "ticket not valid at this location" which offended me greatly as it was always a lie

I don't think they are compatible with Oyster though (they can handle ITSO). Romford used to have "swoosh swoosh" gates like at Chelmsford (don't know who makes them) but they were removed and replaced with the current type due to Oyster compatibility issues. As an aside, does anyone know where else they may be found? They were formerly at Southampton Central, Portsmouth/Southsea and Romford but have all been removed. See here for an example from Chelmsford.

Epsom still had them when I last passed throguh the station, but that was about a year back

Just remembered - Canterbury East have them too, although they are usually left open.

 

[blacknight]

The ticket gates made by S&B (like the ones at Leeds, Leicester, Norwich, etc.) say on the display why it's rejected the ticket. Not always useful; I always get "ticket not valid at this location" which offended me greatly as it was always a lie .
As an aside, does anyone know where else they may be found? They were formerly at Southampton Central, Portsmouth/Southsea and Romford but have all been removed. See here for an example from Chelmsford.

Performance is big problem with ticket gates ie number of passengers they claim they can pass in a minute S&B figures claim gates can process 33 passengers in a minute or nearly 1 passenger every 2 seconds. which is at odds with reality once installed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The gates at Epsom are still the same ones that have been here for 3 or 4 years now - but I couldn't tell you what type they are even though I see them very regularly!

 

[greg tingey]

There should NOT be barriers of this sort at major long-distance termini.

What does one do about meeters / greeters / senders off / auntie Ethel?

Doesn't bother me - I've got a London over-60 pass, but it's the principle of the thing.

 

[island]

What does one do about meeters / greeters / senders off / auntie Ethel?

They can get platform tickets, which I believe cost 10p.

 

[Failed Unit]

They can get platform tickets, which I believe cost 10p.

Then use them to hop on the train and go to Inverness

 

[jon0844]

Then use them to hop on the train and go to Inverness

Just tell the revenue staff you wanted to go to the platform at Inverness.

 

[jopsuk]

There should NOT be barriers of this sort at major long-distance termini.

What does one do about meeters / greeters / senders off / auntie Ethel?

Doesn't bother me - I've got a London over-60 pass, but it's the principle of the thing.

They'd rather not have them I'd have thought- they would rather have the platform clear for dispatch, and having the platform staff and/or train crew assisting passengers that need assistance boarding reduces means no "carried away" inadvertent passengers. Meeters and greeters can meet at the barriers, send-off can happen at the barriers, auntie Ethel can go for a coffee(?)

 

[Mojo]

I've had no problems at Paddington to see off family on a number of occasions just telling the gate staff I want to go through to see someone off (accompanied by person holding a valid travel ticket) and telling another colleague on the way out I've been to see someone off and they need to let me out.

Once entered by the footbridge where the gates are pretty much wide open outside working hours to meet someone, and we then left via the concourse as they needed to go to the LU ticket office (there isn't one on the H&C station) and the guy wasn't too happy at letting me out but didn't have much choice. This actually happened before when I wasn't meeting someone; I was leaving the H&C line and going somewhere, picked a random platform to walk down to be greeted by closed ticket gates. Makes you wonder what's the point.

 

[Mike395]

This actually happened before when I wasn't meeting someone; I was leaving the H&C line and going somewhere, picked a random platform to walk down to be greeted by closed ticket gates. Makes you wonder what's the point.

I believe (could be misremembering however - was a couple of months ago I was last over that way) that there are barriers on that footbridge now so unless you have a valid ticket you have to walk down the Heathrow Express platforms

 

[Mojo]

I believe (could be misremembering however - was a couple of months ago I was last over that way) that there are barriers on that footbridge now so unless you have a valid ticket you have to walk down the Heathrow Express platforms

There are; but see my post you quoted; outside working hours they are always left open and unstaffed whenever I'm there in evenings or weekends!