Northern cancellations getting worse

[Peterthegreat]

Then they should reduce it further.

A train every 2 hours that runs like clockwork is better than one every half hour that cancels randomly.

I'm not sure it is.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Things should improve from this week with the settling of the roster dispute on Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure it is.

It absolutely is. The most important thing the railway can offer is punctuality and reliability, because then one can make a plan, or realistically choose whether the railway is even suitable for their journey or not.

If you get into very high frequencies e.g. 4+ per hour then it might not be true, but personally I value the ability to plan and rely on a journey above literally everything else.

To say you'll operate 2tph then have entirely predictable 2 hour gaps because you know you can't staff 2tph is simply false advertising and should be prosecuted as such.

 

[gazzaa2]

Loads of cancellations from Liverpool. Does strike me that an emergency timetable is needed, again.

The entire rail system in the north of England is falling apart, save for some local operators within city regions that are reasonably reliable.

 

[danny127]

Or Northern the DFT could just sort their s**t out. A train every 2 hours on commuter routes, what a joke that would be and it just gives the Tories even more leeway to remove investment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The entire rail system in the north of England is falling apart, save for some local operators within city regions.

It certainly appears to be. I was lucky last night but most of the board at Lime St around 2100 was "cancelled".

It needs stripping back to barebones basics - simple hourly shuttles with maxed out train lengths and limited interworking, operated punctually and reliably, and possibly buses back on branch lines for now.

 

[Foxcover]

It certainly appears to be. I was lucky last night but most of the board at Lime St around 2100 was "cancelled".

It needs stripping back to barebones basics - simple hourly shuttles with maxed out train lengths and limited interworking, operated punctually and reliably, and possibly buses back on branch lines for now.

Exactly that. Then, gradually, win back the confidence and custom of a lost northern generation who would now do anything rather than get the train.

 

[gazzaa2]

Exactly that. Then, gradually, win back the confidence and custom of a lost generation who would now do anything but get the train.

But the demand for rail travel is still there now, weekend travel at least is as high as ever for demand but less services and more cancellations. Services are absolutely rammed

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the demand for rail travel is still there now, weekend travel at least is as high as ever for demand but less services and more cancellations. Services are absolutely rammed

Hence the need to max out train lengths.

 

[gazzaa2]

Hence the need to max out train lengths.

Yeah, I sat on a 2 car EMR and 3 car Cross Country on Saturday morning that were crush loaded. I was going to wait for the next Cross Country (Birmingham to Nottingham) but it was only 2 carriages. My one busier as previous one cancelled so I had to stand squashed till Derby.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we try to stick to the topic of "Northern Cancellations" please.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread.

thanks

 

[Killingworth]

Things should improve from this week with the settling of the roster dispute on Northern.

This one line should be highlighted. The agreeement with ASLEF is most welcome and should make a very material difference from today. All credit to both sides for achieving it.

 

[EveningStar]

Colleague on Tyne Valley disrupted by the Petteril Bridge derailment today took their first train journey into Newcastle for a few weeks. Got on at Haltwhistle, said conductor pleasant and a good atmosphere on board, so reported warm feelings towards Northern. Train stopped before Corbridge, police got on, told everybody to move to one carriage and train went past an ambulance. Colleague says warm feelings toward Northern evaporated, although assured them that it is unlikely this delay can be blamed on Northern.

 

[richfoz84]

They're already on a reduced timetable and still don't manage to run them. I've just been forced to get a relocation for work because Northern cause me too many problem and it isn't sustainable at all. Glad I don't pay for travel. I feel sorry for those paying for this service.

Also, what it the deal with Sundays? Can anybody enlighten me? Leaving work yesterday my train was the only one passing my station in 5, yeah, FIVE hours. 2 before and 2 after cancelled. seriously? It isn't as if it is a quiet router either.

Sundays aren’t part of the working week. Therefore arent properly staffed and as such require drivers volunteering to work. However with current disputes, no drivers are volunteering to work any additional Sundays. I’d personally avoid using trains on Sundays at the moment if you can.

 

[Halwynd]

The Southport line service was an embarrassment today. There should be an hourly Sunday service from around 9am but during the current 'dispute', it has been every two hours. Today, at the time of writing, just four services have made it to Southport. I was onboard a service (from Manchester) which arrived at Southport at lunchtime and it was dead. Many folks have clearly given up on the railway in this neck of the woods, and not just on Sundays; casual observations during the last few months suggests that useage is well down on what it used to be a couple of years ago.

 

[Lampshade]

I have a flight on Saturday afternoon from Manchester Airport, is it even worth risking the train to get there?

(Yes, on Northern catching the train is something you risk, rather than rely on)

 

[_toommm_]

I have a flight on Saturday afternoon from Manchester Airport, is it even worth risking the train to get there?

(Yes, on Northern catching the train is something you risk, rather than rely on)

If you’re travelling from Manchester, I’d say you’ll be pretty safe, but I’d build in time. If you’re travelling with any TPE trains, definitely not.

 

[TUC]

Sundays aren’t part of the working week. Therefore arent properly staffed and as such require drivers volunteering to work. However with current disputes, no drivers are volunteering to work any additional Sundays. I’d personally avoid using trains on Sundays at the moment if you can.

The point is that any other industry sorted out such issues long, long ago. The fact that rail hasn't isn't a reason for understanding the situation. It's a reason for deep, deep criticism.

 

[43066]

The point is that any other industry sorted out such issues long, long ago.

Any other industry apart from the the NHS, every kind of professional service, many tradesmen and other businesses in all sorts of sectors, you mean? In other words, this is nonsense.

I suppose I must also be seeing things when I check my own roster and notice that I’m working one in every three Sundays…

The fact that rail hasn't isn't a reason for understanding the situation. It's a reason for deep, deep criticism.

This bit mskes perfect sense. It’s clear that certain contributors have no interest whatsoever in understanding anything, they just enjoy moaning and criticising…

 

[yorksrob]

Arriva buses in Wakefield were a disaster zone yesterday evening, so I guess its not just Northern.

 

[swaldman]

Any other industry apart from the the NHS, every kind of professional service, many tradesmen and other businesses in all sorts of sectors, you mean? In other words, this is nonsense.

I suppose I must also be seeing things when I check my own roster and notice that I’m working one in every three Sundays…



This bit mskes perfect sense. It’s clear that certain contributors have no interest whatsoever in understanding anything, they just enjoy moaning and criticising…

Two different issues here. The current disputes across the public and semi-public sectors are certainly legitimate IMHO, and I have every support for anybody from train crew through NHS workers to university staff, even barristers, who take action towards better conditions.

But the idea of "Sunday is not part of the working week" is, IMHO, a relic, and needs to go. Other sectors have agreements about how many weekends somebody can be required to work, and that sort of thing, and I hope something similar could be negotiated - but I don't know of any comparable role where working Sundays is voluntary.

 

[43066]

But the idea of "Sunday is not part of the working week" is, IMHO, a relic, and needs to go. Other sectors have agreements about how many weekends somebody can be required to work, and that sort of thing, and I hope something similar could be negotiated - but I don't know of any comparable role where working Sundays is voluntary.

It absolutely can be negotiated.

Also worth remembering it isn’t voluntary everywhere, with many traincrew having Sundays inside their week. It’s notable that many railway staff still work Monday to Friday 9-5 eg planning teams (including some on here who are quick to bemoan traincrew having Sundays outside!) , hence the disruption last weekend and this week when timetables couldn’t be altered.

Even where it’s outside the working week it’s often committed (ie either find someone to cover it or it’s enforced overtime) rather the purely voluntary. Where it is voluntary it’s the TOCs that have wanted to keep it that way rather than the unions (an inconvenient truth often ignored by those who enjoy union bashing ).

 

[swaldman]

It absolutely can be negotiated.

Also worth remembering it isn’t voluntary everywhere, with many traincrew having Sundays inside their week. It’s notable that many railway staff still work Monday to Friday 9-5 eg planning teams (including some on here who are quick to bemoan traincrew having Sundays outside!) , hence the disruption last weekend and this week when timetables couldn’t be altered.

Even where it’s outside the working week it’s often committed (ie either find someone to cover it or it’s enforced overtime) rather the purely voluntary. Where it is voluntary it’s the TOCs that have wanted to keep it that way rather than the unions (an inconvenient truth often ignored by those who enjoy union bashing ).

I stand corrected - thanks. Why do TOCs want to keep it that way? (does it mean that, so long as people do keep doing Sundays, they effectively get a longer working week out of each employee?)

So many industries seem to only work because of routine overtime...

 

[43066]

I stand corrected - thanks. Why do TOCs want to keep it that way? (does it mean that, so long as people do keep doing Sundays, they effectively get a longer working week out of each employee?)

So many industries seem to only work because of routine overtime...

Yes - it’s cheaper (as per the general reliance on OT) and means crew can be utilised more intensively on other days.

 

[Watershed]

I stand corrected - thanks. Why do TOCs want to keep it that way? (does it mean that, so long as people do keep doing Sundays, they effectively get a longer working week out of each employee?)

Yes - that's exactly it. Broadly speaking, there is a fixed cost to employing someone regardless of how much work they do (you need to pay for their initial training, for them to keep up their knowledge, have a certain ratio of managers to staff etc.). So if you can effectively increase their working week, the cost per hour goes down.

Plus there's the fact that overtime doesn't attract pension contributions on the part of the employer, or additional holiday entitlement, although both are small fry really.

 

[td97]

I have a flight on Saturday afternoon from Manchester Airport, is it even worth risking the train to get there?

(Yes, on Northern catching the train is something you risk, rather than rely on)

Northern's Monday to Saturday service is usually acceptable. They've even stopped cancelling services the night before under the "short notice change to the timetable" guise.
Northern's Sunday service in the north west is a different story and best avoided.

 

[Sonik]

But the idea of "Sunday is not part of the working week" is, IMHO, a relic, and needs to go. Other sectors have agreements about how many weekends somebody can be required to work, and that sort of thing, and I hope something similar could be negotiated - but I don't know of any comparable role where working Sundays is voluntary.

I agree 100%

Even on the railway Engineering/Track staff routinely work ludicrous hours at anti-social times, and many are not particularly well paid. Such flexibility has always been necessary to operate a functional railway system, and train crew should not be an exception.

But equally, there does also need to be a better framework in terms of managing fatigue & rest days for safety critical staff. Other industries (e.g. airline crew) have much more prescriptive regulations around this than rail, because train operators are allowed to make their own risk assessments, and it's apparent that some do push the boundaries or even break their own rules.

I think it would therefore go a very long way to resolve the disputes and improve service, if there was a national standard along these lines. i.e. a seven day week but total roster time for various given periods is restricted e.g. max hours allowed per day/week/month etc. This would still give operators flexibility, but ensure that no one is worked excessively, and remove the disparity in conditions between TOCs. Its also helpful if rosters are issued well in advance, to allow people to plan other things around their days off.

 

[TUC]

Any other industry apart from the the NHS, every kind of professional service, many tradesmen and other businesses in all sorts of sectors, you mean? In other words, this is nonsense.

I suppose I must also be seeing things when I check my own roster and notice that I’m working one in every three Sundays…



This bit mskes perfect sense. It’s clear that certain contributors have no interest whatsoever in understanding anything, they just enjoy moaning and criticising…

You miss the point. Sectors such as the NHS have Sunday working as part of the core rota of those jobs. They're not voluntary.

As for the final comment, it's not moaning for the customer of any business to press for that business operate well and to be flexible to meet customer requirement. Any business that places customer service as a core priority understands that.

 

[43066]

You miss the point. Sectors such as the NHS have Sunday working as part of the core rota of those jobs. They're not voluntary.

I haven’t. I can assure you this is just another inaccurate generalisation: sectors such as the NHS (and many others besides)
don’t, in many cases. Far less activity takes place in hospitals over weekends, for example despite the enormous backlog. The NHS also relies very heavily on voluntary overtime. The railway is really no different to many other parts of the economy.

On the other hand, despite your earlier blanket assertion, many parts of the railway (including my bit of it) do indeed have Sundays as part of their “core rota”. I note you’re ignoring that point.

As for the final comment, it's not moaning for the customer of any business to press for that business operate well and to be flexible to meet customer requirement. Any business that places customer service as a core priority understands that.

The simple reality of the matter is that enormous numbers of businesses, both public and private sectors, don’t operate at all on Sundays in this country, or operate at significantly reduced levels, whether the “customers” want them to or not. There is less demand for rail travel on Sundays (especially early and late), and somehow I doubt you are willing to pay higher fares or see tax payers subsidise more intensive working on Sundays in the hopes that more passengers materialise.

 

[td97]

Things should improve from this week with the settling of the roster dispute on Northern.

This one line should be highlighted. The agreeement with ASLEF is most welcome and should make a very material difference from today. All credit to both sides for achieving it.

This is apparently leading to a fivefold reduction in cancellations

Passengers travelling with Northern, which is owned by the Department of Transport, have also been hit by disruption after some drivers decided to stop working overtime.

But the operator recently resolved a rostering dispute with drivers, which led to a fivefold reduction in cancellations, and it is planning to reinstate the vast majority of services that were cut earlier this year with a new timetable in December.

However, Transport for the North said Sundays are still an issue for Northern, as around 95 per cent of drivers and conductors in the Central and West regions are not contracted to work that day, so it is heavily reliant on volunteers.

Train companies vow to address driver shortages that are causing severe disruption

Train companies claim they are working to address driver shortages which have caused widespread disruption for passengers across the North.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk