Merseyrail legacy fleet updates (Class 507/508)

[8A Rail]

Ahh ok wow that’s a big job I suspect Southport will be shut for many weeks at some point then

I doubt you will see that happening, like all jobs they (Network Rail and partners) will find ways to accommodate the work required. It will be done in stages with some work being carried late evening / early morning and at weekends. They will find away for people to access platform one and two for the Merseyrail trains which is why they are keeping 10 Class 507's operating. Anyway what do I know!

 

[Sam 76]

I doubt you will see that happening, like all jobs they (Network Rail and partners) will find ways to accommodate the work required. It will be done in stages with some work being carried late evening / early morning and at weekends. They will find away for people to access platform one and two for the Merseyrail trains which is why they are keeping 10 Class 507's operating. Anyway what do I know!

That’s so true they are remarkably good at doing that And it’s also a bit of a blessing to keep those units for a bit longer it will be nice to see them during the peaks for those of us who like trains

 

[Vespa]

That’s so true they are remarkably good at doing that And it’s also a bit of a blessing to keep those units for a bit longer it will be nice to see them during the peaks for those of us who like trains

They will no doubt be around for some time, class 502/503 were replaced within 2 years between 1978-1980, however I found a YouTube video of a class 503 very last service run dated 29th March 1985 a good few years after the introduction of class 507/508, it must have been in storage and used to backfill any service gaps.

Interesting video.

 

[prod_pep]

They will no doubt be around for some time, class 502/503 were replaced within 2 years between 1978-1980, however I found a YouTube video of a class 503 very last service run dated 29th March 1985 a good few years after the introduction of class 507/508, it must have been in storage and used to backfill any service gaps.

Only the 502s were replaced during 1978-80. The 503s remained in continuous service until 29th March 1985, although gradual withdrawals started as early as June 1980. Unlike the 507s, the replacement 508s were not new to Merseyside, starting life in the Southern Region.

The transition from all-503 to all-508 operation on the Wirral line was rapid, beginning with the first 508 workings in June 1984 and concluding in March 1985 as the last 503s were withdrawn.

 

[Vespa]

Only the 502s were replaced during 1978-80. The 503s remained in continuous service until 29th March 1985, although gradual withdrawals started as early as June 1980. Unlike the 507s, the replacement 508s were not new to Merseyside, starting life in the Southern Region.

The transition from all-503 to all-508 operation on the Wirral line was rapid, beginning with the first 508 workings in June 1984 and concluding in March 1985 as the last 503s were withdrawn.

A transition period of 7 years overall.
It would be similar with the 777 I would give it 3-5 years of transition line by line starting with Kirkby as it's next to Kirkdale depot for any rescue needed, then Ormskirk for similar reasons, as confidence grows in the new train Southport-Hunt Cross, then the Wirral line next.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[WesternLancer]

They will no doubt be around for some time, class 502/503 were replaced within 2 years between 1978-1980, however I found a YouTube video of a class 503 very last service run dated 29th March 1985 a good few years after the introduction of class 507/508, it must have been in storage and used to backfill any service gaps.

Interesting video.

any chance of a link to that video if it is on line Vespa? (or was it a VHS you had at home - I've still got a few of them )
All the best

 

[prod_pep]

Whilst plans may well have changed, Merseyrail did mention a couple of years back that a Wirral Line route would in fact be next after the Kirkby line to go over to 777 operation: the New Brighton branch if memory serves.

 

[Vespa]

any chance of a link to that video if it is on line Vespa? (or was it a VHS you had at home - I've still got a few of them )
All the best

Enter the "The last class 503" on YouTube.

You will find it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Enter the "The last class 503" on YouTube.

You will find it.

Thanks

 

[prod_pep]

Nice to see 507004 back in traffic after a long absence (my first ride on it since March). It was working with 507010 on the 0758 Southport - Hunts Cross this morning.

 

[Statto]

Only the 502s were replaced during 1978-80. The 503s remained in continuous service until 29th March 1985, although gradual withdrawals started as early as June 1980. Unlike the 507s, the replacement 508s were not new to Merseyside, starting life in the Southern Region.

The transition from all-503 to all-508 operation on the Wirral line was rapid, beginning with the first 508 workings in June 1984 and concluding in March 1985 as the last 503s were withdrawn.

Yep, the 508s went to the Southern region first, then 508s moved North once their was enough 455s in service, apparently the 508s were not popular in the Southern region.

At first 507s were allocated to the Northern Line, & 508s Wirral Line, that became mixed when some units were withdrawn in the run up to privatisation. think some 508s only spent 8 to 9 years in service on the Wirral Line, before moving South again.

 

[WesternLancer]

They will no doubt be around for some time, class 502/503 were replaced within 2 years between 1978-1980, however I found a YouTube video of a class 503 very last service run dated 29th March 1985 a good few years after the introduction of class 507/508, it must have been in storage and used to backfill any service gaps.

Interesting video.

This is the link for that video in case of interest to others

 

[prod_pep]

Yes, the 508s were unpopular due to their lack of compatibility with existing Southern stock and they had various teething problems, the wheel slip protection system in particular.

The Northern Line actually had an allocation of 508s first. Hall Road notionally received 508035-043, later 135-143, from their arrival from the Southern starting in 1982. This plugged the gap left behind after the 507 order was pruned (47 sets were intended but MPTE's funding shortages reduced it to 30, then 33). It was more than two years later in June 1984 that the first 508 entered service on the Wirral. I think 508134 was later also transferred to Hall Road, leaving effectively 43 units for the Northern Line and 33 for the Wirral.

Of course, the classes were interchangeable from an early date so any 508 could be seen on the Northern Line, but the 507s remained relatively rare on the Wirral Line well into the 1990s. Hall Road's closure in May 1997 saw all units allocated to Birkenhead North and thus all units were completely mixed.

The first 508s were withdrawn from Merseyrail service as early as 1991 (508105/106/109), so just seven years of service at the most. Nine more were stood down between 1994 and 1996, comprising the 12 which became Connex's 508/2s.

 

[MR-507508]

Nice to see 507004 back in traffic after a long absence (my first ride on it since March). It was working with 507010 on the 0758 Southport - Hunts Cross this morning.

Yes, was good to see this unit back in service. It was on the Chester line yesterday, first day back in service I believe.
I didn't notice any notable difference with the unit - did you?

 

[prod_pep]

Yes, was good to see this unit back in service. It was on the Chester line yesterday, first day back in service I believe.
I didn't notice any notable difference with the unit - did you?

Can't say I did actually, although I didn't really see below the solebar. Perhaps it served as a 'Christmas Tree' for a bit and donated one or two parts, as 507010 did last year?

One thing that is noticeable: the yellow side vinyls are wearing out on this unit despite only being re-applied a year or two ago.

 

[MR-507508]

Can't say I did actually, although I didn't really see below the solebar. Perhaps it served as a 'Christmas Tree' for a bit and donated one or two parts, as 507010 did last year?

One thing that is noticeable: the yellow side vinyls are wearing out on this unit despite only being re-applied a year or two ago.

Yes, they were reapplied to two carriages on this unit, around September last year, after it suffered a very bad graffiti attack, covering the length of two carriages (top to bottom).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, the 508s were unpopular due to their lack of compatibility with existing Southern stock and they had various teething problems, the wheel slip protection system in particular.

Is that why, before they left the Southern, the vast majority of the 508s had minor damage on the fronts which looked like they'd had a low impact with the buffers?

 

[supervc-10]

The Northern Line actually had an allocation of 508s first.

For a moment I had visions of 508s squeezing through Camden Town...

 

[Vespa]

For a moment I had visions of 508s squeezing through Camden Town...

Is the tube tunnel smaller than Merseyrail ?

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, the 508s were unpopular due to their lack of compatibility with existing Southern stock and they had various teething problems, the wheel slip protection system in particular.

The Northern Line actually had an allocation of 508s first. Hall Road notionally received 508035-043, later 135-143, from their arrival from the Southern starting in 1982. This plugged the gap left behind after the 507 order was pruned (47 sets were intended but MPTE's funding shortages reduced it to 30, then 33). It was more than two years later in June 1984 that the first 508 entered service on the Wirral. I think 508134 was later also transferred to Hall Road, leaving effectively 43 units for the Northern Line and 33 for the Wirral.

Of course, the classes were interchangeable from an early date so any 508 could be seen on the Northern Line, but the 507s remained relatively rare on the Wirral Line well into the 1990s. Hall Road's closure in May 1997 saw all units allocated to Birkenhead North and thus all units were completely mixed.

The first 508s were withdrawn from Merseyrail service as early as 1991 (508105/106/109), so just seven years of service at the most. Nine more were stood down between 1994 and 1996, comprising the 12 which became Connex's 508/2s.

Did they reduce the number of six cars, or were there simply far too many units? Three 508s went to Silverlink and one was burnt out. There's about 20 fewer units compared with 30 years ago. No wonder they are struggling.

 

[507 001]

Is the tube tunnel smaller than Merseyrail ?

Yes, apart from those which formed the Northern City Line to Moorgate.

 

[315801]

In regards of the 507s, the 1st to be written off was 507022 which had 1 driving coach badly damaged in a collision at kirkdale, the other unit involved I believe was 507004 which was not as bad and has continued in service ever since.

1 of the silverlink 508s was 508142 which became 508303, I cannot remember the other 2 which became 508301 & 302.

12 class 508s went to connex southeastern and became 508/2s numbered 508201 - 212

The fire damaged unit was 508118 which was destroyed in an arson attack at Birkenhead North depot, 1 driving coach was completely gutted and half of the middle coach was so badly damaged the unit was written off

Then there was the derailment at Kirkby involving 507006 which was paired with 507021, 006 was disposed to newport and 507021 still continues in service.

Other units sent to newport include 508110 which was the 1st to undergo refurb, 508134, 508143 & 508140 upto now.

All the 508/2s and 508/3a were broken up at Eastleigh depot, 2 driving coaches from 508201 & 207 survive up here on the wirral and are used for fire service training

 

[L401CJF]

In regards of the 507s, the 1st to be written off was 507022 which had 1 driving coach badly damaged in a collision at kirkdale, the other unit involved I believe was 507004 which was not as bad and has continued in service ever since.

1 of the silverlink 508s was 508142 which became 508303, I cannot remember the other 2 which became 508301 & 302.

12 class 508s went to connex southeastern and became 508/2s numbered 508201 - 212

The fire damaged unit was 508118 which was destroyed in an arson attack at Birkenhead North depot, 1 driving coach was completely gutted and half of the middle coach was so badly damaged the unit was written off

Then there was the derailment at Kirkby involving 507006 which was paired with 507021, 006 was disposed to newport and 507021 still continues in service.

Other units sent to newport include 508110 which was the 1st to undergo refurb, 508134, 508143 & 508140 upto now.

All the 508/2s and 508/3a were broken up at Eastleigh depot, 2 driving coaches from 508201 & 207 survive up here on the wirral and are used for fire service training

I believe a coach from 507004 was disposed off and replaced with one from 507022 (not 100% sure on that). One driving coach from 507022 ended up in an accident damaged 314 set (213?) now scrapped.

508135 (possibly 302?) was one of the others that went to Silverlink, can't remember the 3rd!

508201 and 209 are at Seacombe however there's rumours around they are being got rid of if they havnt already.

2 driving coaches from 508207 are converted to barrier coaches and in regular use.

A full 3 car set, can't remember which, was at Moreton in Marsh with another emergency services facility. May still be there. It was less intact than 201/9 though.

 

[43096]

I believe a coach from 507004 was disposed off and replaced with one from 507022 (not 100% sure on that). One driving coach from 507022 ended up in an accident damaged 314 set (213?) now scrapped.

507004 has 64388 from 507022 (its own 64370 presumably written off in the incident). The other DMS from 507022 (64426) was used as a replacement for 64588 from set 314203 which was catastrophically damaged in the Newton collision. 64426 was subsequently renumbered to 64588.

 

[gka472l]

I believe a coach from 507004 was disposed off and replaced with one from 507022 (not 100% sure on that). One driving coach from 507022 ended up in an accident damaged 314 set (213?) now scrapped.

508135 (possibly 302?) was one of the others that went to Silverlink, can't remember the 3rd!

508201 and 209 are at Seacombe however there's rumours around they are being got rid of if they havnt already.

2 driving coaches from 508207 are converted to barrier coaches and in regular use.

A full 3 car set, can't remember which, was at Moreton in Marsh with another emergency services facility. May still be there. It was less intact than 201/9 though.

That is correct, 507004 has 64388 which was from 507022, in place of 64370 which was scrapped years back, here's a pic of said car awaiting it's fate at Glasgow Works, with 507022's trailer car, 71363, also in view for scrapping https://www.flickr.com/photos/67444577@N02/7243659128

The Silverlink ones were 508301 (508102), 508302 (508135) and 508303 (508142)

The 507 car used in 314203 was former 64426, which got renumbered 64588 (replacing the original 64588 destroyed in the Newton crash) so both driving cars of 507022 actually survived until 64588 got scrapped in the last couple of years with the demise of the 314's.

HTH

 

[Bikeman78]

That is correct, 507004 has 64388 which was from 507022, in place of 64370 which was scrapped years back, here's a pic of said car awaiting it's fate at Glasgow Works, with 507022's trailer car, 71363, also in view for scrapping https://www.flickr.com/photos/67444577@N02/7243659128

The driving cars look remarkably undamaged in the photos but, with so many spare units, perhaps it was not worth the repair bill. Was it the trailer of 507022 that got damaged in the Kirkdale depot collision? With a simple swap, 507004 returned to service and the two damaged vehicles became part of withdrawn 507022 on paper.

 

[prod_pep]

Did they reduce the number of six cars, or were there simply far too many units? Three 508s went to Silverlink and one was burnt out. There's about 20 fewer units compared with 30 years ago. No wonder they are struggling.

A bit of both really. The storage of 508s during the 1991-94 period coincided with a number of six cars being reduced to three, especially on the Wirral Line. By 1994, only 53 units were required for weekday service so there was a large surplus. To put it into perspective, the Wirral Line's number of carriages per hour in peak times has declined by a whopping 74% since the Loop tunnel opened in 1977.

The driving cars look remarkably undamaged in the photos but, with so many spare units, perhaps it was not worth the repair bill. Was it the trailer of 507022 that got damaged in the Kirkdale depot collision? With a simple swap, 507004 returned to service and the two damaged vehicles became part of withdrawn 507022 on paper.

It very likely was decided not to bother with repair due to so much spare stock on Merseyrail. I'm sure the damaged cars were driving motors in each case: clearly 64370 from 507004 (opposite side to that shown in the photo) but I'm not sure which one of 507022 was affected, presumably 64426.

 

[507020]

A bit of both really. The storage of 508s during the 1991-94 period coincided with a number of six cars being reduced to three, especially on the Wirral Line. By 1994, only 53 units were required for weekday service so there was a large surplus. To put it into perspective, the Wirral Line's number of carriages per hour in peak times has declined by a whopping 74% since the Loop tunnel opened in 1977.

What was the most units that were ever required from the fleet of 76 before these reductions and why was the demand so much higher. I rarely use the Wirral line but all I hear about it is that 6 cars would be overkill on most services especially with the higher frequencies they get over there.

 

[prod_pep]

What was the most units that were ever required from the fleet of 76 before these reductions and why was the demand so much higher. I rarely use the Wirral line but all I hear about it is that 6 cars would be overkill on most services especially with the higher frequencies they get over there.

The decline in capacity affected the Wirral Line more than the Northern in the 1991-94 period, hence my mentioning it. The Ormskirk line did lose at least one of its six car workings each peak time in this period too: it used to have four out of five formations paired. Otherwise, the Northern Line kept its six cars and 7/8 minute Southport line peak service. I don't know the highest number of required 507/8s, but it can't have been much more than 60.

When the Link and Loop tunnels opened in 1977, the Wirral Line (19,000 passengers travelling into Liverpool Central on the average weekday) was busier than the Northern Line (14,000). This was partly due to the inconvenient location of Liverpool Exchange for the shopping and nightlife areas of town, hampering off-peak travel. The Northern Line also only had two electrified routes at the time, the Southport and Ormskirk branches, although the Southport line was the most heavily used individual route on either side of the Mersey - and still is.

Since then, there has been a complete switch around: the Northern Line overtook the Wirral in 1983 and the gap has widened since then leaving the Northern Line much the busier of the two. Reasons include the opening of Liverpool Central's Northern Line platform and the incorporation of the Kirkby and Hunts Cross routes, as well as a gradual decline in Wirral Line patronage. In 1987, the average weekday passenger numbers were 23,000 on the Northern Line and 19,000 on the Wirral.

The Wirral Line is only more frequent between Liverpool and Hooton, where the six trains per hour service is overkill off-peak, no question. To go from 27 trains per hour in peak times in 1977, all six car, to 14 tph with no six cars at all in 2022 is an enormous decline.

 

[Ianigsy]

Bus deregulation also gave places like New Ferry, Bromborough, Heswall and Greasby direct buses to Liverpool city centre, which they hadn’t had before - previously the Wirral commuter would have taken a bus to Hamilton Square for the train or Woodside/Seacombe for the ferry.

Business and demographic changes also mean that the likes of Wallasey, Hoylake and West Kirby are less attractive - my parents moved to a terraced house with a garden in Birkenhead in 1969 when they married in their early twenties, but a lot of couples in that position nowadays would want to be closer in to the Liverpool nightlife.